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pebbles
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Topic: Oldest civilization in the world? Posted: 15-Feb-2009 at 03:14 |
I think any myth relates to " Sumerian civilization " is a hoax or cyber-hype ![LOL LOL](smileys/smiley36.gif)
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Guests
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Posted: 15-Feb-2009 at 02:48 |
The oldest known human settlement is in Catalhoyuk, Turkey (7th
Millenium B.C.) http://www.users.interport.net/k/a/kaparla/bil.htm The earliest one hinted at was Enoch, built by Cain in the land of Nod, East of Eden http://nabataea.net/eden8.html ...but then that sunk in a Flood
An account to Atlantis also exists in Bible where it is called, 'Enoch'. " ;)
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dud
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Posted: 21-Jan-2009 at 15:14 |
Originally posted by coolstorm
the chinese civilization actually started around 3000 bc as the huangdi tribe.
http://www.greatchinese.com/emperors/table.htm
the source is, however, in chinese.
but it's the only existing ancient civilization in the world today. all others are gone already. |
I think you could even push the start of civilization in China back to the Longshan culture. In that time were the first Chinese cities established from agricultural villages.
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Aster Thrax Eupator
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Posted: 23-Dec-2008 at 03:21 |
...How did they manage to do that? Couriers? For such a large area of land that they controlled, that seems unlikely. Alternatively, they could have just done what the Hittites did - leave a loyal magnate in command of the area in which they wished to govern. Interestingally enough, Peru and Anatolia in some respects are quite similar in their lay of the land and ruggedness - the Incas may have been able to use the same method. I don't think that the Hittites did communicate with writing to their magnates to such a huge extent as other empires, so this comparison may be worth following up.
...But as per the main question, I think it has to be a tie between Sumeria and Egypt, although the earliest Pharonic dynasty has blatant Mesopotamian influences in their architecture, and I believe it's now generally accepted that the original "Pharonic" race came from Mesopotamia in any case. Much of the "civilisation" of many of these peoples comes from a fusion of the dominant imported culture of the ruling caste and that of the indigenous peoples - I could, again use the Hittites as an example, but again we can push the boundaries forward to the Ottoman empire etc.
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Akolouthos
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Posted: 23-Dec-2008 at 01:27 |
Originally posted by Aster Thrax Eupator
Oh...I take that back then! I assumed that the Inca did have writing...but how could they have an administered empire which functioned effectively without such a means of communication? |
Pinguin mentioned the lack of Inca writing in a separate thread. It does seem odd that they were able to administer their empire without it, doesn't it? I'd really like to read up their governance a bit, if I ever get the time.
-Akolouthos
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Aster Thrax Eupator
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Posted: 23-Dec-2008 at 01:22 |
Oh...I take that back then! I assumed that the Inca did have writing...but how could they have an administered empire which functioned effectively without such a means of communication?
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athenas owl
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Posted: 23-Dec-2008 at 00:03 |
Originally posted by Aster Thrax Eupator
Moreover, I'd consider writing and a literary culture to be one of the building blocks for a "civilisation", and I don't believe that the Uruk, Halaf, Ubaid, etc. cultures have anything that comes close - they may have had hieroglyphs, or perhaps that comes later. |
Did the Incas have a system of writing? I suppose so if one counts the knotted strings. But no known literary culture or writing that we would recognise. However, i would consider the Incas a "civilisation".
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edgewaters
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Posted: 22-Dec-2008 at 22:56 |
Originally posted by Aster Thrax Eupator
Moreover, I'd consider writing and a literary culture to be one of the building blocks for a "civilisation" |
I'm not entirely sure about that ... what about the Inca? They can't really be classified as a tribal group - they have a large, centrally administered empire, a bureaucracy, numerous cities, and a wealth of infrastructure (roads, irrigation, terraces, granaries, even a postal service).
and I don't believe that the Uruk, Halaf, Ubaid, etc. cultures have anything that comes close - they may have had hieroglyphs, or perhaps that comes later. |
Pictographic script appears during the Uruk Period; by 2800 BC there are syllabic and phonetic elements.
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Aster Thrax Eupator
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Posted: 22-Dec-2008 at 22:05 |
I have to say that I'm always confused by the "dynastic" king lists from Sumeria, as they aren't representative of the whole mesopotamian civilisation, and as we know, there are plenty of cities that did have some kind of monarchies that aren't even listed. Moreover, I'd consider writing and a literary culture to be one of the building blocks for a "civilisation", and I don't believe that the Uruk, Halaf, Ubaid, etc. cultures have anything that comes close - they may have had hieroglyphs, or perhaps that comes later.
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Mythica
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Posted: 22-Dec-2008 at 21:54 |
Thanks, that makes sense
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edgewaters
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Posted: 22-Dec-2008 at 21:06 |
It is correct but incorrect. They're starting Sumer off with Early Dynastic I, but Sumer has a long pre-dynastic history of urban civilization, the Uruk Period, which starts about 4000 BC. Egypt, too, has an earlier history than that given - the Protodynastic Period, starting in about 3200 BC - during which its first cities emerged. It's correct for Egypt and Sumer if you take their histories as beginning with their respective dynastic periods, but it's incorrect if you're looking at it as a timeline of the emergence of urban life and "civilization".
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Mythica
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Posted: 20-Dec-2008 at 10:35 |
Most people are saying Sumerian is older than Egyptian so is this timeline incorrect? http://chaos1.hypermart.net/fullsize/ancivfs.gif
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indian tamil
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Posted: 20-Dec-2008 at 08:45 |
indian civlization is the oldest
there are many riddles which yet not resolved properly in indian history
if it resolved the whole world will stun
the civilization is because of indians
can u date any civilization inthe whole world predating around 10000BC y?
do u know y islam and abrahamic religions?
do u know anything about tamils(dravidians/indians)
do u ever heard about kumari continent
do u know which is the oldest continuing civlization?
do u know y all the major civilizations have some sort of flood stories or atlantis like such things about their ancestors?
if u answer these questions u will come to know which is the oldest civlization
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Aster Thrax Eupator
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Posted: 19-Dec-2008 at 22:49 |
The word "civilization" originally means "living in a city". |
That may be the literal and etymological basis for the word, but frankly, the connotation means a lot more - the word is hardly ever used just to reffer to one city, and usually is instead reffers to a large group of people that share a similar and influencial culture over a fairly large geographical area. I'd have to say, from that basis, Mesopotamia or Egypt.
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calvo
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Posted: 19-Dec-2008 at 20:34 |
The word "civilization" originally means "living in a city".
So a human settlement would only be called a civilizations if it could be classed as a city.
What defines a city then?
It would be a congregation of over a few thousand people where there is a clear division of labour and an administration system; where the inhabitants engage in agricultural, production, and commercial activities.
Early settlements such as Jerico and Catalhoyuk could hardly be referred to as "civilizations" because despite their relatively large populations, the inhabitants subsisted on agriculture only; so effectively they were simply oversized villages.
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Aster Thrax Eupator
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Posted: 19-Dec-2008 at 18:36 |
I think we have to adequately define "civilisation" to make any sense of the question. The temple that predates the agricultural revolution above probably does constitute, as a coherent socio-cultural system is needed in order to create something like that, and, we can assume, a political. If, however, we are to consider that writing formulates a civilisation, as it presents a literary and historical heritage, as well as an awareness of their own past, we'd have to restrict the boundaries to c.3000 BC Mesopotamia and Egypt. I'm not sure if the legendary dynasties of China such as the Xia and the Shang would constitute - as I'm not that familiar with them and I don't know if they have much archeological evidence associated with them. If we are to speak of a nation state to constitute a civilisation - with the ability to exert administrative control over a large area, aside from just a city-state - we would have to state that "civilisation" must be placed with Sargon of Akkad, c.2200 BC. However, I am in favour of a socio-cultural model - the idea of a "nation state" with de-centralised power is hard to harmonise with such ancient cultures, and if we use the above model, then technically, Rome and Greece wouldn't be civilisations! The word is usually a cultural epithet - we don't hear of individual states within Greece, the levsant or Mesopotamia being reffered to as "civilisations", so I think we have to say which people had the largest cultural vibrance and most advanced society. Sorry...ramble!
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edgewaters
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Posted: 19-Dec-2008 at 16:25 |
It's hard to call Catal Hoyuk a civilization because it's just a single site.
If you had a network of similar sites in the area, on the other hand, there's no reason it couldn't be described as such.
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emperor charles
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Posted: 19-Dec-2008 at 11:50 |
First, I wish people would answer the question posed.
The oldest civilizations are:
Sumerian Egyptian Anatolian Indian (Indo Aryan) Mycenean
Sumerians weren't Arabs nor were Egyptians nor Anatolians
But in modern day Turkey there are ruins and remains of Ancient people dating back to 6000 BC There are human remains in North America (Grand Canyon area) dating back to 9000 BC though these are not representative of a civilization, whatever that is.
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athenas owl
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Posted: 01-Dec-2008 at 19:21 |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Göbekli_Tepe
Göbekli Tepe
The oldest known temple in the world, predating the Agricultural Revolution by a few thousand years, if memory serves. Perhaps not a civilisation as such, but evidence of some very early movement towards one. A temple complex built by hunter gatherers in Southwest Turkey. The oldest "temples" date back some 11,000 years.
There were possibly still ice sheets on the Mountains of Turkey, Iran and the Caucusas. The Wurm glacial period didn't really end until about 10,000 years ago.
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Sun Tzu
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Posted: 01-Dec-2008 at 02:01 |
how about the Hurrians?
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Sun Tzu
All warfare is based on deception - Sun Tzu
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