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Similar battle deaths of 300!

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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Similar battle deaths of 300!
    Posted: 12-Dec-2010 at 19:43
Here is another version of some of my thoughts:

More about; Thermopylae, 300 dead knights, secret passages, famous sayings, cavalry traps, white chalk or ashes, and possibly the solution to a problem from the Middle Ages, and beyond!

You must notice that anything in this essay that is made "bold", or shows up in "bold" print, are points that I consider important!
http://www.livius.org/th/thermopylae/thermopylae4.html Ca. 470 BCE

The early fifth century history of Central Greece is poorly understood, but it is certain that the Thessalians and Phocians were at war "a few years before the Persian invasion" (Herodotus, Histories, 8.27). During this war, the "Phocian Wall" was built at Thermopylae: about 150 meters long, parallel along the road, and offering the Phocians a safe place from which to throw missiles at the invaders."

(I hope you noticed that the "Phocian Wall", was not (it seems) built to serve as a block to the road, but as a protected place whereby they could assail the enemy from behind protection, and was, it seems only located on one side of the road! The road itself remained free of obstructions! It seems to me that a defensive work of this type which was (it seems) only 150 metres long could only contain about 300 defenders, or in this case offensive personnel, since it was designed to only "throw missiles at the invaders!" This would mean two missile throwers per metre! I would also ask, just what were the "missiles" that were thrown?

Did the 300 throw rocks?, or did they sling stones?, or did they throw darts (if darts, just what were darts?), etc. It seems that it would be fairly easy to defeat such a defense if they only had rocks, darts, stones, spears, etc. to throw at the attackers who would be in a very narrow defile! The invaders would only have to place protection upon one side of their column and would thus be able to repel attacks of this kind! Mere wooden panels, held alongside of wagons and men and animals would thus receive a lot of protection from such an attack!

Is my logic flawed at this point? And just how many missiles were available to be thrown? It seems a determined attacker with enough troops could quickly deplete the missile stores what ever they were if they were only stones, darts, rocks, and spears, etc.!

Just what kind of "missile" could have been used to prevent entry via the road?

The article continues;

"However, the Malians (allies of the Thessalians), discovered the Anopaea path and Thermopylae fell for the first time (Herodotus, Histories, 7.215). The invaders, however, were defeated at Hyampolis and the Phocians were able to free themselves."

The above account is informative in that it mentions that the Phocians reportedly defeated the Malian invaders in a later battle at Hyampolis and recovered their independence. This seems strangely similar to the events after the Spartan Greek stand at Thermopylae?

More about the above can be found here;

http://www.lightfigures.com/numismat/larissa/show.php?page=13

The first section of the above site is entitled;

"Thessalian Geography and Institutions"

You need to read it, and compare the organization of this area with the organization of the Feudal System in the Middle Ages? It seems awfully similar to me!
In section two, you probably need to know the meaning of "medizers?"

See;

http://www.apaclassics.org/AnnualMeeting/08mtg/abstracts/watson.pdf   And from this site you can read;

"Medism – that is, willing collaboration with the Persians by a Greek city –.."

Thus medizers willingly co-operated with the Persians / Medes! You see they were still referred to as Medes! Could these words also describe the "Frankish" dukes, earls, knights who invaded Greece after the fall of Constantinople? It may be strange but it seems that there were two competing groups of knights or warriors that had connections within what we now refer to as Spain competing in Greece against one another, in the "Middle Ages" / "Medial Ages?"! See next!

You really need to compare the attitudes of Sparta and Athens at this early date (6th Century BCE) with that of the Catalan Company rule of Athens and the Navarresse Company rule of Sparta in the Middle Ages?

Then you might well want to read part two of; http://www.lightfigures.com/numismat/larissa/show.php?page=13

Remember you must look for some correlations from B.C.E. times to Medieval times! You might well note that even the word "Medieval" seems to make some connection to the word "Media" or the "Medes?" I will leave it to you, the reader to see what you can make of this claim! No matter what you find, I will be able to meet you in the "middle!" Chuckle!

But some really strange information, if it is true, can be found here;

http://www.fanaticus.org/DBA/armies/I52h.html
 
"Ancient Phokis, the land of the Phokians (a.k.a. Phokaeans, Phocians), lay north of Boeotia and Thebes and was bounded by Locris and Aetolia to the west and Thessalia to the north. According to Greek legend, Phokia derived its name from Phocus of Corinth, who settled near Tithorea and Delphi in mythical times and became a great leader in the region.

In his Description of Greece, Pausanias notes that "opposite the Peloponnesus, and in the direction of Boeotia, Phocis stretches to the sea, and touches it on one side at Cirrha, the port of Delphi, and on the other at the city of Anticyra. In the direction of the Lamian Gulf there are between Phocis and the sea only the Hypocnemidian Locrians. By these is Phocis bounded in this direction, by Scarpheia on the other side of Elateia, and by Opus and its port Cynus beyond Hyampolis and Abae."

According to Homer, the Phokians "held Kyparissos, and rocky Pytho, and Krisa the sancrosanct together with Daulis and Panopeus; they who lived about Hyampolis and Anamoreia, they who dwelt about Kephisos, the river immortal, they who held Lilaia beside the well springs of Kephisos." Essentially, Phokia was a federation of 20 townships centered in the upper valley of the Cephisus river with Krisa as its capital."
In the last paragraph above you will see the mention of "Kypar-issos", and "Pytho" and "Krisa" and Kepj-isos, and finally "the Cephisus river with Krisa as its capital!""

Note also in the above quotation the use of "..Kephisos, the river immortal" and "..the well springs of Kephisos,..", etc. and the use of "Cephisus river" also! Are all of these words the same?

The following site is also of some interest; http://www.theoi.com/Potamos/PotamosKephisos1.html

"The Kephisos River had its headwaters on the northern slopes of Mount Parnassos, and the southern foothills of the Mount Othrys. It flowed east through Phokis and Boiotia before emptying into Lake Kopais near the town of Orkhomenos. The most important neighbouring rivers of the Boiotian Kephisos were the Sperkheios of Malis to the north, the Pleistos of Phokis to the south, and the Ismenos of central Boiotia to the south-east.

It is possible that the same river-god presided over the two Kephisos rivers of Attika. The river may have been thought to travel underground from Lake Kopais, to rise in the mountains of Kithairon and Parnes, there to form the two Athenian rivers of the same name. A fourth Kephisos located in Argos, vanished into a cleft in the earth. It may have been thought of as the source of the Phokian river, after travelling north through underground passages."

So, it seems that we are left with a bunch of possibilities whenever we see either the words "Kephisos" / "Kephissos?", or "Cephissus" / "Cephisus", mentioned!

And I would especially like you to consider these words from the above quote; " It is possible that the same river-god presided over the two Kephisos rivers of Attika.", as well as these words; " The river may have been thought to travel underground from Lake Kopais, to rise in the mountains of Kithairon and Parnes, there to form the two Athenian rivers of the same name."

Can any one identify the "two Athenian rivers of the same name?"


Perhaps you might want to read the following site;

http://books.google.com/books?id=V6YoAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA119&lpg=PA119&dq=krisa+greece&source=bl&ots=oBF5nG_-5d&sig=etFKjjvtohJEfi6lWork05knjL4&hl=en&ei=JiJySvGXKcaMtgef55iNBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3

http://www.fanaticus.org/DBA/armies/I52h.html continues with;

Because of its location in central Greece, Phokia was a cross-roads" (I must interrupt here to make a possible point? Does not the word "Phokis" look and sound similar to "phocus?" as well as "fokis?", and thus,"focus?" If so, then a "cross-roads" would well be a place to "focus" upon?)

The web site continues; "to much of Greek history, being proximate to the strategic pass at Thermopylae, the ancient oracle at Delphi (originally a Phokian dependancy), Mount Parnassos, and Doria (the first city of the Dorians in Greece)."

Note please, the use of the word "proximate!", which means "very near!" This is a much better description of a place than the use of the word "approximate" which is much less clear since it is only approximate! Laugh.

And the mention of the "Dorians"!, is a word that has mystified numerous historians for many years! It seems few historians can really get their hands upon this almost mysterious force of people who, it seems, overran Greece!

But, I am always amazed that no one, it seems, has ever connected "Dorian" with "Doria!", and the great exploits of an Admiral or two known by that name!

The quotation continues;

"According to Homer, during the Trojan War, the Phokians under Skhedios and Epistrophos provided 40 black ships to the Achaean host and fought as the left wing of the army. And in approximately 600 BC, Phokia founded a colony at Massalia (modern Marseille, France)."

I must now mention that the area around Marseille was at one time basically a part of Catalonia, and the language "du Oc" (Occitan) is but considered as a version of Catalonian or the other way!

The quotation continues;

"During the First Sacred War (595-586 BC), Phokis fell under the control of Thessaly, their traditional rival. During this period, Delphi was liberated from Phokian control by Kleistehenes of Sikyon (585 BC) and the famous Oracle and surroundings were established as an independent city."

A few additional bits of information related to the above paragraph;

http://knowledgerush.com/kr/encyclopedia/Cleisthenes/ and;

http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/people/A0812505.html

From the last site you can read; "Cleisthenes, fl. 510 B.C., Athenian statesman. He was the head of his family, the Alcmaeonidae, after the exile of Hippias, and with Spartan help had made himself undisputed ruler of Athens by 506 B.C. He established a more democratic constitution by weakening the clan system and the local parties and by organizing the districts into political rather than social divisions. The Alcmaeonidae thus became leaders of a democratic party, a reorientation making them anti-Spartan instead of pro-Spartan as earlier. An attempt of his rival, Isagoras, to overturn the reforms of Cleisthenes after Cleisthenes had been sent into exile failed, and Cleisthenes was recalled."

Now there is a lot going on at the above, but particular attention might be shown to the word "Hippias?" Just what or whom were or was, or could the word "Hippias?" have meant?

First look here;

http://search.aol.com/aol/search?invocationType=webmail-hawaii1-standardaol&query=the%20exile%20of%20Hippias

We see that there was a tyrant named Hippias! But, it seems he is of no real importance here, is he?

Then read the following where "Hippias" is merely spelled "Hippas!";

http://books.google.com/books?id=eJwSAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA73&lpg=PA73&dq=%2Bhippas+meaning&source=bl&ots=ApYz0X4kAO&sig=PZOufTQKPqkQOxA4c-3XTLdNP3Y&hl=en&ei=2ilySsjeC4KGtgen1rCNBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10

From the above you will see what one learned "expert" had to say about it! He calls it (the word Hippas) "a form of wrestling!"

You see, it happened a long time ago, back in BCE times! It could have nothing to do with later times! But, it is certainly very close!

Heck, as a child we / I even played such a game! The point was to "dismount" the rider! What other "game" involved this? If you perform any kind of search concerning "hippas" you will automatically notice that the word "hippo", which almost any fool would know is the ancient Greek word for "horse!", is a prime substitute! I. E. "Augustine of Hippas / Hippo!"

Thus the game (played in "ancient Greece") was a child’s version of "jousting!", I.E. "Unseat your opponent!" If you see the word "hippas" you might well want to consider "horse mounted knights?" I would suggest that the "wrestling matches" as our esteemed author above said, were merely Jousting Matches, which were a symbol of the Middle Ages!

So, from the above sites words concerning the "exile of (the) hippias", one might well consider that it was the exile of the "horse mounted knights!" or "the cavalry?" You decide!

But, perhaps we really need to read about the "tyrant" called "Hippias?"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippias_(tyrant)

As well as this Hippias?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippias

And, as well you can read this;

http://messagenetcommresearch.com/myths/ppt/Hippias_1.html

"his brother, Hipparkhus might be thought of as co-tyrant and was thus a powerful man in Athens; Hipparkhus was in love with a young man named Harmodius but his affection was not returned; Hipparkhus sought to humiliate Harmodius by publicly slandering Harmodius’ sister." Perhaps the above could not have made it in the a "Band of Brothers?", or "Lovers?

You can decide just how important the above named really are to my story!

And now you will read (from the original quoted site) about two "obscure battles" which might seem familiar?

"Two obscure battles fought prior to 480 BC helped Phokis throw off the Thessalian yoke.

In a battle in the pass at Hyampolis, they defeated the Thessalian cavalry by strategem, which involved digging a ditch, filling it with empty water jars, and then leveling it over with dirt. The jars broke beneath the weight of the charging Thessalian horse, dismounting riders and crippling the legs of their steads."

How utterly incredible!

Just how many hundreds of ceramic water jars would have been needed to make a difference? How deep would the "ditch" have to be?, and how long was it? And just how big were the water jars? The above begs for some explanation!

We need to stop at this point so I can make mention of another battle that is somewhat similar to the above "empty water jars" entry. Please see;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Halmyros

Where you will see; "The Company" (the Catalan Company) "assumed a defensive position on the plain of Orchomenus, near the River Cephissus. Their Turkish auxiliaries took up a separate position nearby, thinking the quarrel was a pretext arranged by the Company and the Duke of Athens to exterminate them.

To protect their position, the Catalans broke dikes and dug trenches, diverting water from the Cephissus to flood the fields lying in front of them."

(We must consider that the fields mentioned must have been recently tilled and made soft.)

"On the eve of battle, the Catalans in the Duke's service, stricken by conscience, took leave of him and rejoined the Company. (You must know that the number of Catalan soldiers who left the service of Gauthier de Brienne, is said, to have numbered 300!) "This circumstance little disturbed the Duke, who still outnumbered the company, and had at his command the chivalry of the Frankish states in Greece, considered the flower of the French-speaking world." (In the above paragraph we are not told just how many Catalans were in the service of the "Duke", who is supposed to be Duc/ Dux Gauthier / Walter de Brienne!)

"The Duke, with his banner in the vanguard, opened the battle with a cavalry charge against the Catalans, followed by the infantry. In the morass covering the Catalan front, the cavalry soon became hopelessly mired, the Duke and his banner falling in a rain of assegais from the almogavars. As the lightly-equipped Catalans advanced to cut down the wallowing knights, the Turkish auxiliaries descended from their camp upon the Athenian army, panicking and routing what remained of it."

According to Muntaner, only two of the seven hundred knights survived the battle, Roger Deslaur and Boniface of Verona. However, Nicholas Sanudo, later Duke of the Archipelago, also escaped, and a few others, like Antoine le Flamenc, were probably ransomed. Muntaner claims that 20,000 of the infantry were killed, and all of the native horse." (here as one of you has already sumised it seems that "native horse" in this instance means "native cavalry / horse=soldiers', in the plural, and not just a horse.

Might one assume that "Antoine le Flamenc", could well have described some one who was from a "Flemish" / "Flamenc?" background? And, notice well, that the above account mentions not a word about the use of bows and arrows!

Were the Franks immune to them?

Were the Catalans adverse to them?

Now back to the account of the;

"First Sacred War (595-586 BC)";

The Thessalians retaliated with a massive invasion of Phokia.
A reconnaisance force of 300 Phokians under Gelon was destroyed to the man, prompting a panic among the Phokians. All their women, children and goods were collected and placed under the charge of 30 men with orders to kill them and burn the goods if the Thessalians should prevail in the coming battle (a.k.a. "The Phocian Despair")."

(Above the 300 Phokians / Phocians were reportedly only a "reconnaisance force" and thus were expected to avoid a trap or one sided battle!)

"The Phokians then mustered their forces with Daiphantes of Hyampolis commanding the horse and Rhoeus of Ambrossus leading the foot under the overall direction of Tellias, a seer of Elias" (please think of the Eli or Elias of the Bible?) ", who brought a favorable oracle from Delphi. In the subsequent battle, the Phokians fought desperately and wrenched victory against long odds against the Thessalians who were compelled to retire.

Subsequently, Tellias the Eleian hand-picked six hundred Phokians and had them and their armor and shields covered in white chalk. They attacked the Thessalians at night in their encampment, causing a panic and slaying over 4000. Defeated and demoralized, the Thessalians withdrew.

Wow, who knew? Above we see a "reconnaissance" force of 300 men under their leader "Gelon" were killed "to the man" by the Thessalians! I thought only the 300 Spartans were famous for fighting to the last man, but in a subsequent battle they were avenged, just like the "300 Spartans!".

Does any other information concerning this "Gelon" exist?

There is this; http://www.fjkluth.com/writing.html , (which is just a repeat of the above) but other than this it seems the only other Gelon mentioned existed in Syracuse!

It seems that the Gelon of Phocis has no other fame! But the covering of the Phokian’s armor and shields with white chalk is interesting. Ashes can also be "chalk" looking! (Some where, some time in the past, certain warriors were also said to have covered themselves in the ashes of a famous opponent!)

Fortunately for us, we have the following article concerning the "Gelon of Syracuse" in Sicily / Greater / Great? Greece;

http://www.mainlesson.com/display.php?author=church&book=persian&story=greeks

In the above article are these words which may surprise you?

"Then said Gelon, ‘Man of Athens, ye seem to have commanders more than enough, but of them that should be commanded a few only. Go ye back then to Greece with all haste, and say that she has lost the spring out of the year.’ For he likened himself and his power to the spring, which is the best season of the year."

The key statement you might recognize is, "Man of Athens, ye seem to have commanders more than enough, but of them that should be commanded a few only." Note this statement, or one very close to it, was also made about 480 BCE!

Does the above line seem somewhat familiar? It was supposedly spoken in about 480 BCE! Can any of you remember the famous words supposedly said by "Xerxes?", or possibly by, John / Jean I (ier) (Jacques?) de la Roche?

According to Wikipedia;

"In 1275, John," (Jean I (Ier), de la Roche) "with 300 knights, relieved Neopatras, blockaded by land and by sea. It was at Thermopylae, confronting the Greek enemy" (Greek meaning Byzantine) ", that he said "'Great are their numbers but few among them are true men." And, quoting Herodotus, who reportedly wrote, of the Battle of Thermopylae, ‘The Persians are great in their numbers but true men are far and few.’"

Compare with the words of Gelon above; "...ye seem to have commanders more than enough, but of them that should be commanded a few only."

"F. Gregorovius, when reporting the "de la Roche event" in his "History of the City of Athens in the Middle Ages--", was quick to notice the obvious plagiarism in the above words attributed to ‘John / Jean / Jacques? I / ier", since they were basically the same words reportedly quoted as being said by Xerxes (per Herodotus) when faced with a similar force (one that was reportedly made up of 300 Spartans under Leonidas, many hundreds of years earlier, as Herodotus is understood, as well as the words of Gelon of Syracuse, in our ‘consensual’ histories"

So, as historians of a sort, are we to believe the above quotations are merely co-incidences? Of course Gregorovius considered that de la Roche, was educated enough to remember the words of Herodotus, but what of Gelon of Syracuse, and what of Gelon of Phocis who also led and lost 300 men?

Could not, all of the above quotations be translated with the same meaning? It seems that it totally relies upon the translator him/her self?

Wow, a real examination of the past, seems to reveal a lot of strange things! But, of course, I would bet that the defenders of our consensual history would dismiss the above as "merely a co-incidence!"

Co-incidentially, I do not!
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Dec-2010 at 17:29
I have to assume that either Owen has quit posting here, or he is busily writing a scathing denial / reply to my prior postings?

I hope it is the latter?
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Dec-2010 at 20:32
For those of you who just love to see me again mention a fighting force of 300 who do strange things, how about you reading at this site, concerning a famous battle?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plataea

These are the exact words, but the entire site is interesting;

"Thucydides tells that in April 431 BC, a an armed force of 300 Thebans commanded by two leading Theban generals/politicians were admitted after dark on a stormy moonless night into Plataea by two private citizens who expected the Theban force to immediately capture and kill the democratic leaders and bring Plataea into alliance with Thebes. Instead the Theban commanders harmed no one but attempted to persuade the citizens of Plataea to join with Thebes' allies."

Sorry the "300" just seem to keep popping out! Especially amongst the Greeks!

I would suggest that some of you are certain that where ever I am going with these postings, that nothing can come of them! Thus I leave you with this quotation;

"Certainty is the mother of fools". -Patrick Jane on The Mentalist

Edited by opuslola - 10-Dec-2010 at 20:49
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Dec-2010 at 18:58
Again regarding the rivers near and in Athens, we come to the above mentioned river named the Kifisos! It is funny that the site mentioned above should spell it so! Perhaps some clarification is needed?

So, see if the following sites clarify the situation?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cephissus_(Athenian_plain)

The key sentence found in the above site is; "Cephissus (Athenian plain) (Greek Κήφισσος, Kifissós, Kephissós, Kêphissos) or Cephisus (Greek Κήφισος Kêphissos), a river flowing through the Athenian plain."

Please take close note of the possible spellings of this river? You might well note that it appears, at least to one of my previous sources, that another accepted spelling could be "Kifisos?", you see, it appears that the doubled "s" might well not be required! See the above spelling as "Kifissos!"

You will also notice that another spelling (as the spelling of this river seems to change with each historians account) is "Cephisus!", which I would contend could just as easily have been spelled as "Cephissus", or even "Cephissos?" / "Cephisus", etc.! I would also contend that it could have even been spelled as "Kefisos", or "Kefissos", or "Kefissus", etc., as well as "Kiphissos", etc.!

I will now ask you to name the river in Sicily where another famous loss of 300 warriors took place?

That river's name was "the Crimissos!", which I will also suggest could just as easily be written as "Krimissos", or "Krimisos", or "Krimissus", etc.!

While the use of "issus", "issos", "Isos", "Isus", etc. might not mean "river", can anyone see any reason why it could not mean "Issue" or more correctly "the issue of the "River? / Potamos"?

Actually, I do not have to accept that "Potamos", has always been the Greek word for "river!" In actuality, we can read this;

http://www.theoi.com/Potamos/Potamoi.html

From the above site, we read this;

"THE POTAMOI were the gods of the rivers and streams of the earth, sons of the great earth-encirling river Okeanos. Their sisters were the Okeanides, goddesses of streams, clouds and rain, and their daughters were the Naiades, nymphs of fresh-water springs.

The River-God was depicted in one of three forms:--as a man-headed bull; or a bull-horned man with the body of serpentine-fish from the waist down; or as a man reclining with an arm resting upon an amphora jug pouring water."

Wait just a moment while I regard the mention of "an arm resting upon an amphora (a clay jug) pouring water." Were not some "clay jugs" planted in the earth to stop a charging army?

But, most of all we see that the "potamoi" were merely the Gods of rivers, lakes and Oceans, etc.!

But, look!, later on we see the name of one of those gods;

"ILISSOS A River-God of Attika in southern Greece." As well as these;

"KEPHISSOS (1) A River-God of Phokis in central Greece.
KEPHISSOS (2) A River-God of Attika in southern Greece.
KEPHISSOS (3) A River-God of Argos in the Peloponnesos, southern Greece.
KRIMISOS A River-God of the island of Sikelia (Sicily) in Italy. He seduced a Trojan princess disguised as a dog."

Just how did the Greeks keep all of these gods seperate? It seems that it could be very confusing when translating or transcribing a document, etc.? Mistakes could, it seems, be easily expected, and perhaps common? Perhaps one should look at all of the gods listed at the site above?

And even this little site is informative;
http://www.hotelallegro.gr/potamos_en.php

Now examine the next site;

http://www.answers.com/topic/chaeronea

Where amongst other good points you will read these words;

"Chaeronea (kĕrənē'ə), ancient town of Boeotia, Greece, in the Cephissus (now Kifisós) River valley and NW of Thebes. There the Athenians and Thebans were defeated (338 B.C.) by the Macedonians under Philip II, and in 86 B.C. Sulla defeated the army of Mithradates VI of Pontus under Archelaus. Chaeronea was the birthplace of Plutarch."

I will leave it to your own devices to read about "Plutarch" here;

http://www.ask.com/web?&o=101881&l=dis&q=Plutarch






Edited by opuslola - 10-Dec-2010 at 20:34
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2010 at 17:39
Perhaps some of you should again read;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Thermopylae

Where you can read these words;

"At dawn Xerxes made libations, pausing to allow the Immortals sufficient time to descend the mountain, and then began his advance.[65] The Greeks this time sallied forth from the wall to meet the Persians in the wider part of the pass in an attempt to slaughter as many Persians as they could.[65] They fought with spears until every spear was shattered and then switched to xiphē (short swords).[84] In this struggle, Herodotus states that two brothers of Xerxes fell: Abrocomes and Hyperanthes.[84] Leonidas also died in the assault, and the two sides fought over his body, the Greeks taking possession.[84] As the Immortals approached, the Greeks withdrew and took a stand on a hill behind the wall.[85] The Thebans "moved away from their companions, and with hands upraised, advanced toward the barbarians..." (Rawlinson translation), but a few were slain before their surrender was accepted.[85] The king later had the Theban prisoners branded with the royal mark.[86] Of the remaining defenders, Herodotus says:

"Here they defended themselves to the last, those who still had swords using them, and the others resisting with their hands and teeth."[85]

Tearing down part of the wall, Xerxes ordered the hill surrounded, and the Persians rained down arrows until every last Greek was dead.[85] In 1939, archaeologist Spyridon Marinatos, excavating at Thermopylae, found large numbers of Persian bronze arrowheads on Kolonos Hill, changing the identification of the hill on which the Greeks died from a smaller one nearer the wall.[87]"

Now just what "wall" does the above refer to? It almost has to be the famous Phocian Wall, that ran parallel to the stream or river!

Do you remember it? Just why would a wall be constructed running parallel to a river, with no way to defend it from above? Or, did the Greeks think that the 1,000 Phocians would be able to do so?

Please see; http://www.spartan-world.de/thermopylae2_text.html

Perhaps you can make out the distinction?

Oh! I almost forgot! The river that runs through the pass is reportedly called the "Asopus", which could easilly be also spelled or translated into "Asop-isus / -isos?" Or would you disagree?

Remember that "Aesop" was famous for his fables?

Thus, is this the "fabled river?"

See; http://www.who2.com/ask/aesop.html Or;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aesop

From the above site we see; "Aesop or Esop", so just why not "Asop?"

Also from the above site are these words;

"Problems of chronological reconciliation dating the death of Aesop and the reign of Croesus led the great Aesop scholar Ben Edwin Perry in 1965 to conclude that "everything in the ancient testimony about Aesop that pertains to his associations with either Croesus or with any of the so-called Seven Wise Men of Greece must be reckoned as literary fiction," and Perry likewise dismissed Aesop's death in Delphi as legendary;[9] but subsequent research has established that a possible diplomatic mission for Croesus and a visit to Periander "are consistent with the year of Aesop's death."[6] Still problematic is the story by Phaedrus which has Aesop in Athens, telling the fable of the frogs who asked for a king, during the reign of Peisistratos, which occurred decades after the presumed date of Aesop's death around 564 BC.[10]"

And the famous battle was reportedly fought about 480 BCE!



Edited by opuslola - 09-Dec-2010 at 18:02
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2010 at 17:09
Read about this man here;

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=es&u=http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernat_de_Rocafort&ei=oVIBTd_wJISClAeb_NTsCA&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CCUQ7gEwAQ&prev=/search%3Fq%3DBernat%2Bde%2BRocafort%26hl%3Den%26rlz%3D1T4ADBR_enUS315US315%26prmd%3Divo

You might well notice that the fist name, if it really is one, is the same as "Berenger/Berengar, etc.", and is just another way to spell "Bernard" or "Bernado", etc.!

You will notice again that the almogavers are also referred to as the Catalans!

Please also note; http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ca&u=http://ca.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernat_de_Rocafort&ei=LktPTJz1B8OC8gbftuGgAQ&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CB0Q7gEwAA&prev=/search%3Fq%3DBernat%2Bde%2BRocafort%26hl%3Den%26rlz%3D1T4ADBR_enUS315US315%26prmd%3Dio
And notice the place to which they "repaired"?


http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ca&u=http://ca.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernat_de_Rocafort&ei=LktPTJz1B8OC8gbftuGgAQ&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CB0Q7gEwAA&prev=/search%3Fq%3DBernat%2Bde%2BRocafort%26hl%3Den%26rlz%3D1T4ADBR_enUS315US315%26prmd%3Dio

Also the reported birth place of Homer!/D'Omer?/ H'Omer?", or even "Omar/Omer?", and as such also "Otto" / "Otho", etc.!

And again, a different spelling;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Crimissus

Compare to Krimissus?

Edited by opuslola - 09-Dec-2010 at 17:28
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2010 at 15:44
Strange isn't it Mosquito, that events and spellings seem to repeat themselves over and over?

I guess that is what is meant by the old phrase "History tends to repeat itself?"
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2010 at 05:28
Originally posted by opuslola

 
Such as; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Issus

Can any of you find any reason that Issus cannot also be spelled as Issos?

You must note that I project or believe that the words "Issos" or "Issus" merely means mostly the same as our modern word "Issue(s)", or mostly, "flow", "flu", "flum!", or "Flume'", or "river!"
 
If you ask me, I would tell you that I see no reason to not spell it as Issos. In Polish it is battle of Issos, not Issus. As the name of the place does not come from Polish language, I best Issos must be coming from Greek or Latin. Maybe word "Issus" is just an English form.
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2010 at 05:10
Very interesting Opuslola, Iv never heard before about Sacred Band from Carthago. I always though that it was somthing unique for Thebes.
May we assume that Carthaginian Sacred Band was also a gay regiment, like the one from Thebes?
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Dec-2010 at 14:27
Dear Owen, did you really read about the Sacred Band of Carthage? Did you read these words about the battle at the river?

"As long as the Sacred Band
held, reinforcements could stream
across the ford to turn the tide of
battle. Timoleon saw his victory
slipping away. At this moment, the
gods intervened. To the
Greeks (at least it seemed so to
them). A violent thunderstorm
erupted onto
storm benefited
important ways. First, the wind blew
the rain and hail
Carthaginians,
backs of the Greeks.
heavy rain greatly slowed
crossing of the Carthaginian
mercenary reinforcements. And,
finally, the very heavily armored
hoplites of the Sacred Band became
mired in the quickly developing mud.
The Greek hoplites were apparently
more lightly armed, but it was the
Greek peltasts especially that found
they could now work their way
around the flanks of the Sacred
Band. The peltasts commenced to cut
it to pieces. Nearly all the sacred
Band fought and
stood. The Greeks claim to have
counted
on the field.
Carthaginian
Significance of the Battle
Timoleon's victory at Crimissos
solidified the hold of Syracuse on
Eastern and Central Sicily. It also
cavalry charge. But
unprepared,
flight of the chariots. But
intervened on the side of the
the battlefield. The
the Greeks in three
into the faces of the
but only onto the
Second, the
the
died where they
12,500 Carthaginian dead
The remainder of the
army scattered in flight."

The copy and paste did not do well but the gist of it came through, that is these words; "the very heavily armored hoplites of the Sacred Band became mired in the quickly developing mud."

Do the above words not erily remind you of the forces/kinghts of Walter de Brienne, whom were also heavily armoured and likewise mired in the muc, whilst facing the Catalans? Did not the desertion of some of the mercenaries also remind you of the desertion of the Catalans that were on the side of Duke Walter, to their brothers on the other side?

Is it not recorded that the rest of the army of Waltier deBrienne were destroyed or scattered?

Could the area across the river have been deliberately flooded, or were clay pots placed in the area?

These three or four similarities, at least, cast doubt as to just which account is the real one?

Or did the ancient accounts of historians only indicate that they were pure and simple plagerists?

Did not my explanation of the rivers that flow thru Athens surprise you? At least the names of them should have?

"Read more: Athens, city, Greece — Infoplease.com

http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/world/A0805192.html#ixzz17SwzosKR

Thus the correct answer, which I know all of you found surprising was 'the Kifisós and Ilissus rivers!'

Just how close is "Kifisos" to "Cephissus", etc.? Perhaps you can well visualize Alexander at the battle of the "Il-issus", in Greece? Rather than in Asia? Issus v. Is(s)os, etc.! Could not the confusion of the names of rivers or places, that historians found in the so called "ancient accounts" / Greek?, have placed them in inserting information of a similar nature?

Strange is it not?"

And please rather than just ignore the propositons I have given you and post derisive remarks to impress your friends, etc., it would be much better if you actually did the research into the assertations I have mostly given unto you?

If you are unwilling or unable to perform such, then please merely dismiss me and spare me the time and effort to provide you with the information that I already have? As well as the effort to provide you with much more!

I am not just "Singing Dixie" here! (that is an old American statement that you could not really understand!)

By the way, your last name (which I presume is Rees) could just as easily be spelled as "Rys" or "Reece", etc.?

Cheers!


Edited by opuslola - 08-Dec-2010 at 14:50
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Dec-2010 at 11:02
Originally posted by opuslola

Thanks Mosquito, what we really see is that history has no pat or correct answer for the real number, that is, it could have moved from the number 300 to the number 600 or so, numerous times!
 
To the number about 800-1000 if it was the first cohort of the legion "cohors miliaria"  which as I said earlier had double strenght.
 
Roman legions were being drafted and released en masse. It ranks were not reinforced. So on the begining of its service legion had full strenght but in the end, much less soldiers. For example, if I remember well the whole X Legion of Caesar at the battle of Munda, last battle of the Civil War, had only about 1500 men.
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  Quote owenrees Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Dec-2010 at 04:03

Hi Opuslola, always a puzzle to be found when I wake in the morning, I start to look forward to them now!  The sacred band battle was known, always a nice anecdote when you write on the Theban Band to show the Carthaginian equivalent.  Don't know if the Carthaginian one was sexually connected in the same way, do you know anything on that?

The river observation, I will inject one point which is that the Greek for river is Potamos;

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/definitionlookup?redirect=true&lookup=river&type=begin&options=Sort+Results+Alphabetically&.submit=Search&lang=greek

So if the ending of the all the rivers are similar as you describe, does it not just denote that it is in fact a river?  It would be like saying there is something suspicious that the River Thames, the River Avon and the Hudson River all have 'river' in their name.  If we accept that the names are not suspicious, then you have observed that many battles throughout time occur by rivers, which is not surprising.

I had a question for you and your theory, in terms of later battles being rather close or identical in reports to ancient battles; have you found any similarity to the battle of Cunaxa (401 BCE) and the fighting in Fallujah (2003CE-present) as the sites are meant to be very close to one another?

Mosquito - I didn't know they fluctuated so much, thanks for clarifying that point

Regards

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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Dec-2010 at 17:04
My answer to the last of my above post, might well be surprising to most of you!

http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/world/A0805192.html

The simple answer is:

"Athens (ăth'inz) [key], Gr. Athínai, city (1991 pop. 2,907,179; 1991 urban agglomeration pop. 3,072,922), capital of Greece, E central Greece, on the plain of Attica, between the Kifisós and Ilissus rivers, near the Saronic Gulf.

Read more: Athens, city, Greece — Infoplease.com

http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/world/A0805192.html#ixzz17SwzosKR

Thus the correct answer, which I know all of you found surprising was "the Kifisós and Ilissus rivers!"

Strange is it not?

Perhaps you might well, by now at least, have some challenges left?
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Dec-2010 at 14:35
Thanks Mosquito, what we really see is that history has no pat or correct answer for the real number, that is, it could have moved from the number 300 to the number 600 or so, numerous times!

And yes, Owen we are told that it is related to "garden!"

But, resorting again to the mention of a "Sacred Band"(of brothers?), I would well bet $10.oo to $1.00, that no one else here has seen or heard of this?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Krimissus

http://www.c3iopscenter.com/documents/The%20Battle%20of%20Crimissos%20River%20341%20BC.pdf

Please note the spelling of the name of the river, and ask yourselves if this does not remind you of another famous river and the battle(s) fought there?

Such as; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Issus

Can any of you find any reason that Issus cannot also be spelled as Issos?

You must note that I project or believe that the words "Issos" or "Issus" merely means mostly the same as our modern word "Issue(s)", or mostly, "flow", "flu", "flum!", or "Flume'", or "river!"

Can any of you even consider this? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pineios_River_(Thessaly)

Could you perceive that "enios", or "aios?" could equal "Issus" or "Issos", or "isos?", or even "ios?", or even "os?", or "us?", etc.?

Perhaps you might well consider seeing this list of rivers in Greece?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rivers_of_Greece

Then perhaps you might well consider my proposition?

Regarding the number of 300 warriors;

I also hope that you read this?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_300_Champions

Oh! As well perhaps one should again consider this?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charge_of_the_Light_Brigade

Thus maybe only 607 men?

Regarding Greek rivers and famous battles, I'd again bet that none of you have ever regarded this?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Achelous_(1359)

Sorry, I know that I sometimes ask too much from "scholars!"

But, can any of you name the two rivers or streams, etc., that actually run thru or around ancient Athens?

Edited by opuslola - 07-Dec-2010 at 16:55
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Dec-2010 at 11:13
Somtimes cohort could have even less men. For example after conquest of Gaul, on the begining of civil war, the veteran legions of Caesar like 10th, 11th,12th, 13th and 14th had only about 2000 soldiers so the cohort was even smaller.

Edited by Mosquito - 07-Dec-2010 at 11:14
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  Quote owenrees Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Dec-2010 at 10:42
Fair point from you both there, so we seemed to have all agreed it is between 300-600 amusingly.  I know Ottoway & Cyprien make the observation that an Auxillery cohort was of a larger size than a legionary cohort which may explain the variety of answers available?

Cohort I think, if I remember my Roman lectures correctly, comes from the Latin; cohors and cohortes.
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Dec-2010 at 07:28
Actually our dictionaries seem to pin the number of people in a cohort as somewhere between 300-600!

See;

"co·hort   /ˈkoʊhɔrt/ Show Spelled[koh-hawrt] Show IPA
–noun
1.a group or company: She has a cohort of admirers.
2.a companion or associate.
3.one of the ten divisions in an ancient Roman legion, numbering from 300 to 600 soldiers.
4.any group of soldiers or warriors.
5.an accomplice; abettor: He got off with probation, but his cohorts got ten years apiece.
6.a group of persons sharing a particular statistical or demographic characteristic: the cohort of all children born in 1980.
7.Biology. an individual in a population of the same species.
Use cohort in a Sentence
See images of cohort
Search cohort on the Web

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Origin:
1475–85; < MF cohorte < L cohort- (s. of cohors) farmyard, armed force (orig. from a particular place or camp), cohort, retinue, equiv. to co- co- + hort- (akin to hortus garden); r. late ME cohors < L nom. sing.


—Synonyms
2. friend, comrade, fellow, chum, pal, buddy."

Thus, perhaps these researchers found that the use of the word sometimes fell into a span begining with 300 and rising to 600? What is strange is that it also seems the first usage of the term seems to have only been dated to the 16th century CE!
Thus the appearance of the word in any translation of more ancient works must have been substituted for what ever the ancient work used to describe a unit of the same size, etc.? That is, just what was the Latin or Greek word, etc.?

The 16th century was the very period where many of these old documents were re-discovered and translated, etc.!

Regarde'


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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Dec-2010 at 07:02

in the roman legion were 10 cohorts, however first cohort had double strenght. In the ordinary cohort was moreless 500 soldiers, maybe up to 600. But usually legions didnt have full strenght because were being raised and released en masse, so in the end of its life there was probably much less soldiers.

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  Quote owenrees Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Dec-2010 at 03:19
Haha, nothing like a good rhyme Opuslola.  I am trying the Uni library today to have a look, unfortunately everywhere so far is solely MS Office.  Not sure about the cohort numbers, I know the Roman cohort numbered 6 centuria which makes 480 men and brigade is a much larger force again (like 4,000), but then these concepts are inevitably fluid throughout history and commentary.

Once again, if I can get this doc. open I shall read it and return with more relevant discussion!  Mind how you go.
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Dec-2010 at 14:11
Owen, I thought one of the sites mentioned that a "cohort" was 300, etc.! , and there was a different word for 600, which was, I believe "Brigade" or two "cohorts!"

And, yes I made a "play on words", because of the asserted homo-sexual nature of the 300 killed by Phillip and Alexander! Thus "Hort" became "Heart!" Just what "opinion" could overide it?

And yes, I know most of them have degrees, and expertise, etc.!

And Shirley, I mean surely some of your friends have a Word Perfect Programme? Certainly the local College Library should?

So, be of good cheer! The time is near!

Edited by opuslola - 06-Dec-2010 at 14:13
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