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Zagros
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Topic: Indonesia: How did the largest Muslim country become Muslim? Posted: 01-Oct-2005 at 12:41 |
Originally posted by Pharoah
Iranians just like to claim everything as the world has never seen Muslims except the Persians.
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No - just everything that is or was Iranian.
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Zagros
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Posted: 01-Oct-2005 at 12:21 |
Pharoah, how about Abu Muslim who kicked out the Ummayads and installed the Abassids?
And how was the trade minimum? why are there Persian place names in Sumatra?
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Pharoah
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Posted: 01-Oct-2005 at 11:54 |
Iranians just like to claim everything as the world has never seen Muslims except the Persians.
Indonesia was not Muslim because of Persian & Mangolian trade. That trade was minimum and Persians never were interested in spreading Islam. Have you ever heard of Persian Islamic conquest?
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Constantine XI
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Posted: 27-Sep-2005 at 17:23 |
Originally posted by Maju
I've found this in Wikipedia - Malay people (Indonesians and Filipinos are also Malay, at least most of them):
In terms of religion, most Malays had converted from Hinduism, Buddhism and animism to Islam
in the early 15th century; influenced surprisingly, by Chinese
seafarers from China who already had more than 700 years of interaction
with Muslims from Middle East during the Islamic Golden Age. Today, Muslim Malays form the dominant religious group in Indonesia, Malaysia and Brunei. Their conversion to Islam from Hinduism and Theravada Buddhism began in the 1400s,
largely influenced by the decision of the royal court of Malacca. Most
Malays in Singapore, Thailand, South Africa, Sri Lanka and Surinam are
also Muslims.
So it seems it was a local process started by local monarchs,
particularly the king of Malacca. Still it reminds the christianization
of Northern Europe where most conversions were caused by royal
conversions first (with the possible exception of Ireland). Another
example could be most parts of Muslim Black Africa, where islamization
was not caused by invasion but rather by local processes, though the
pressure from Muslim nomads and traders surely helped.
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It seems to have some similarities of the process of Christianisation.
The Russian populace converted en-mass when their Grand Prince Vladimir
of Kiev was baptised and likewise the Roman Empire became Christian
after the Imperial family adopted it. Most likely in Indonesia's case
the introduction of Islam occured naturally thanks to trade contact,
but the ruling families helped by either not stopping it or outright
giving it their support. The introduction of Islam was a natural
product of trade and interaction, the dominance of Islam probably
because the elites were happy to support it.
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azimuth
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Posted: 27-Sep-2005 at 05:45 |
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Iranban
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Posted: 27-Sep-2005 at 05:02 |
Mabrouk on your achievements.
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HulaguHan
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Posted: 27-Sep-2005 at 01:19 |
1055= all sunnite muslim world except Umayyad govern of Andulucia was under Turkish command.
Only independent muslim realm was Shiite Fatimids of Egypt.
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HulaguHan
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Posted: 27-Sep-2005 at 01:17 |
You do not have to have an opinion.
When Qarakhanids embraced Islam, there was not a significant power in the world. 950= Qarakhanids became muslim. 999=THey kicked Iranic asses (destruction of Samanid Empire) so that their sons could bash Turks.
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ok ge
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Posted: 26-Sep-2005 at 19:10 |
Well, im not sure about indonesians of arab ancestery in saudi arabia. Usually the immigration to Indonesia was for Yemenis mainly as the situation worsened in Eden with the opening of Suez Canal. However, the Indonesians in my region Hijaz (all muslims immigrating to Saudi Arabia in old days will choose Mecca or Medina) are of pure Malay ancestors.
That immigration of Malay people to Hijaz was so great in in mid 1800's that the Dutch opened a counselate in Jeddah. I grew up between two major cities, Jeddah and Mecca and a lot of my friends you can tell the are originally Malay by their features and names, such as Khuja, Al Jawi, Tambosi...etc
Their contribution is not only that most of them were educated and affluent business traders who reside the holy cities, but soccer was brought to Saudi Arabia as early as 1927 through Indonesian community who probably learned from the Dutch. They also brought with them delicious menus. Gado gado yum! ![](smileys/smiley2.gif)
Edited by ok ge
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D.J. Kaufman
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Fizzil
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Posted: 26-Sep-2005 at 17:37 |
Some javanese live in saudia arabia i hear, they look indonesian but are of arab ancestery, there are some arabs of indonesian ancestery too.
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ok ge
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Posted: 25-Sep-2005 at 14:48 |
Well, it is so hard to distinguish between who accepted Islam through Trade, science & education, or military might of nearby kingdoms. I won't say that there are nations who had Islam being forced on them after the conquest, because there is no imperical evidance of that whatsoever if it wasn't the opposite, but Im sure that Malay, Turks, sub- saharan Africa are examples of adopting Islam through personal interaction of civilians rather than kingdoms and empires.
Drawing on this specific topic, I was delighted to find a more detailed description of the nature and process of that personal interaction with Muslim traders and merchants. An interview with Hamid Algabri (born near Surabaya, East Java in 1912), lawyer, one of the leaders of Indonesia's revolutionary movement, former member of Parliament, and a prominent senior member of the Arab community in Indonesia, spoke to Cynthia Myntti (CM) in Jakarta in March and April 1993. http://www.aiys.org/webdate/gadr.html
He basically descriped the history of trade with Indonesian islands. Most interesting of that article, that he confirms the point, Zagros mentioned it, that trade with that region is as old as before Islam. However, with Abbasid empire, that trade became an important cycle of spice trades which increased the interaction with the locals. Also, another interesting fact, that though Arab traders immigrated there to settle in Indonesia, those wave of immigrants were mainly males! They settled there and married Indonesian, and chinese wives and you cannot distinguish them from Indonesians except with their surnames.
Rajasa, they say Kingdoms on the shore of Indonesian islands were formed by immigrant Muslims merchants. Is this true? and did they clash with local kingdoms?
Edited by ok ge
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D.J. Kaufman
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Iranban
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Posted: 25-Sep-2005 at 14:17 |
Originally posted by HulaguHan
If you ask Zagros, everything, islam, Turks, Arabs are Iranic.
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Where did he say that?
Or maybe you are just provoking?![](smileys/smiley2.gif)
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Iranban
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Posted: 25-Sep-2005 at 14:16 |
Originally posted by Zagros
Really? Got any info on that? Also, the Sassanids and Parthians had trading colonies in East and South East Asia, I suppose these same routes and places were exploited in Islamic times. |
No, mot really more than the fact that they exist, but i've asked an Indonesian friend, i'm waitin for his reply.
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HulaguHan
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Posted: 24-Sep-2005 at 23:15 |
Guys ignore this dude, everybody knows Indonesians learned Islam from Yemeni ARabic traders and missionaries...
If you ask Zagros, everything, islam, Turks, Arabs are Iranic.
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HulaguHan
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Posted: 24-Sep-2005 at 23:14 |
Zagros, you are a very illiteral person.
Just read Karakhanid Empire, OK. Or Kipchak Khanate, or Oghuz Khanate...
They became muslim with traders and missionaries.
BTW, which empire (you read) forced Turks to convert?
Turks weren't a sedentery nation and can't be described as having a particular land at that point,
Right after the embracement of Islam, they conquered Iran and made it a
particyular land fo them for centuries and centuries.
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Zagros
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Posted: 24-Sep-2005 at 16:30 |
Turks weren't a sedentery nation and can't be described as having a particular land at that point, as far as I have read they converted under the influence of empire not traders, in that sense indonesia is unique as far as I know.
Edited by Zagros
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HulaguHan
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Posted: 24-Sep-2005 at 16:19 |
Zagros, Indonesians are not alone. Turks also embraced Islam as an independent country without any foreign force.
Bernard Lewis mentions that in Karakhanid Khanate, 200.000 Tents embraced Islam on one night.
Check the facts again.
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ok ge
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Posted: 24-Sep-2005 at 11:19 |
Wow, thank you guys.
I found this article too which is based on Ibn Batuta travels in that region 1345, it draws the borders of the Islamic world and trade lines during that time. It also establish the attention to the impact Malaysian Muslims had on their neighboring kingdoms. The publication of this article is on the San Francisco University School District, http://www.sfusd.k12.ca.us/schwww/sch618/Ibn_Battuta/Battuta 's_Trip_Nine.html.
Other ports along the way were also open to Muslim travelers and traders. Malay rulers encouraged Muslim traders to settle in their ports and bring the advantages of a strong trading economy. Once established, the Muslim neighborhoods needed judges, scribes (people who could write), teachers, religious leaders, and businessmen. And so, the trading neighborhoods became larger and more influential. The Malay rulers recognized the advantages of becoming Muslims, and many of them converted. As Muslim rulers, they could enter into the larger networks of trade and participate in the Dar al-Islam. Outside the trading centers, Islam would later develop, too. This process was just beginning as Ibn Battuta came through. A Malay prince, ruler of Samudra on the coast of Sumatra, had converted to Islam in the late 13th century. Some of his non-Muslim subjects may well have been pirates that plagued the merchant ships in the Strait of Malacca.
From Bangladesh,Chittagong, Ibn Batuta caught a Chinese junk and went to Samudra on the island of Sumatra. This really was the end of Dar al-Islam for no territory east of this was ruled by a Muslim ruler. Here he stayed for about two weeks in the wooden walled town as a guest of the sultan. The sultan then provided him with supplies and sent Ibn Battuta on one of his own junks to China.
Two maps of the Muslim world in 1300's and the second in the 1500's. It shows the expansion of Muslim South East Asia.
![](http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/~bvon/images/bmap5.jpeg)
![](http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/~bvon/images/bmap6.jpeg)
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D.J. Kaufman
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Posted: 24-Sep-2005 at 11:16 |
Alot Muslim Traders from Arab,India, and China introducing Islam to us, and thats true some Persian also,even according to our historian my City where I born, Cirebon opened first time by Persian name Sheh datul kafi,
But we should give a cridit to Wali Sanga ( Nine messenger ) who spreading Islam in Java
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Zagros
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Posted: 24-Sep-2005 at 10:57 |
Only country that I know of, there was no heathen tax to force them to convert on economic terms and there were no armies that established an Islamic elite to filter down Islam to the peasants.
Originally posted by ok ge
Originally posted by Zagros
the only country not to be under muslim imperial dominance that converted on its own accord. |
I like your selection of words . Do you have further information about those Mangul and Persian traders? What sect they were from? how long it took?
Does your statement that Indonesia was the only country not under Muslim conquest and converted on its own accord means that neighboring countries like Malaysia, Southern Philippines, and Sri Lanka came under Muslim Imperical control?
off topic, So are you in Scotland now or Iran![](smileys/smiley5.gif) |
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