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Topic: 2 immense Easter Island achievements Posted: 28-Mar-2008 at 03:23 |
Originally posted by Seko
Pinguin, how about making reference to your resources regarding the virtues of Austronesian sailors. Share info on the catamarans, etc. Leave the comparisons with other peoples out of your post too. Thanks. |
I can't post details right now. However, you could take a look at these sites. I bet you will be surprised by the tecnical details.
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Seko
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Posted: 27-Mar-2008 at 16:17 |
Pinguin, how about making reference to your resources regarding the virtues of Austronesian sailors. Share info on the catamarans, etc. Leave the comparisons with other peoples out of your post too. Thanks.
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Posted: 26-Mar-2008 at 14:08 |
Originally posted by red clay
Odd how you accept voyages of 3-4,000 mi. in the Pacific in open canoes, but not the Atlantic. Particularly if the South Atlantic circulation was followed the longest leg in open water would have only been approx 1,100 mi.
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Nothing odd about it. Austronesian sailors (Indonesian/Javaneses and Polynesians) were far better sailors than the rest of Eurasians and by far. Just compare the history of navigation, and the techniques, of ancient Europeans and Mediterraneans with Austronesians, and you will get convinced.
By the way, Polynesians didn't cross the pacific in canoes, but catamarans. Saying a catamaran is a canoe is like saying a F-1 car is a bike. No way to compare both.
Edited by pinguin - 26-Mar-2008 at 14:09
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Posted: 26-Mar-2008 at 13:02 |
Originally posted by pinguin
Originally posted by rider
How on earth can you accidentally find something THAT small? |
Following the birds... I am not kidding.
And also, seeing the presence of islans far away by "reading" the waves patterns and clowds configurations. It is quite complex the empirical methods polynesian had to determine the presence of far away land. But, I tell you, they weren't just travelling blind in that huge ocean that is the Pacific. |
Odd how you accept voyages of 3-4,000 mi. in the Pacific in open canoes, but not the Atlantic. Particularly if the South Atlantic circulation was followed the longest leg in open water would have only been approx 1,100 mi.
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"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown.
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Posted: 26-Mar-2008 at 12:55 |
Originally posted by pinguin
references, please.
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Why? you never do. I'll change that to seldom.
Edited by red clay - 26-Mar-2008 at 12:56
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"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown.
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Posted: 26-Mar-2008 at 12:35 |
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Posted: 26-Mar-2008 at 00:39 |
Originally posted by pinguin
Originally posted by Mixcoatl
... Also it would mean that Polynesians would have stopped their explorations after having reach Easter Islands. (and after all they did reach Sala y Gmez)
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Where did you get that?
Salas y Gmez didn't have settlers at contact time. I have never heared that Polynesians reached there. |
It was not inhabited, but the Eastern Islanders were aware of its existance, evidenced by the fact they had a name for it: Birds Island on the Way to a Far Away Land...
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Posted: 25-Mar-2008 at 23:51 |
Originally posted by rider
How on earth can you accidentally find something THAT small? |
Following the birds... I am not kidding.
And also, seeing the presence of islans far away by "reading" the waves patterns and clowds configurations. It is quite complex the empirical methods polynesian had to determine the presence of far away land. But, I tell you, they weren't just travelling blind in that huge ocean that is the Pacific.
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Posted: 25-Mar-2008 at 23:48 |
Originally posted by Mixcoatl
... Also it would mean that Polynesians would have stopped their explorations after having reach Easter Islands. (and after all they did reach Sala y Gmez)
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Where did you get that?
Salas y Gmez didn't have settlers at contact time. I have never heared that Polynesians reached there.
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Posted: 25-Mar-2008 at 19:27 |
How on earth can you accidentally find something THAT small?
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Posted: 25-Mar-2008 at 18:06 |
500 or so km east of Easter Island, its size is less than one square km.
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Posted: 25-Mar-2008 at 17:14 |
Where's Sala y Gomez?
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Posted: 25-Mar-2008 at 11:58 |
Originally posted by pinguin
Originally posted by rider
I think it would be rather difficult to miss S-America if you started towards it...
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If reached South America alive, of course. 3.500 kms. aren't a piece of cake at all. Not even for Polynesians. |
But on the other hand, they probably landed on Easter Island after sailing eastwards from French Polynesia into the unknown it would have been an extraordinary coincidence if Polynesians did hit one tiny island which they did not know existed but did never reach a huge continent. Also it would mean that Polynesians would have stopped their explorations after having reach Easter Islands. (and after all they did reach Sala y Gmez)
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Posted: 25-Mar-2008 at 05:15 |
Wether they did or not is different issue but there is little reason to think they could nt.
Some 3500 km to the americas would be rather a piece of cake compared to the discovery of easter island and some other places. The really hard thing in long open sea sailing is not to keep sailing but to hit your target. If the target aint known its a matter of surviving untill you reach something. In case of the Americas, a gigantic target ( 30.000 km from north to south ) that cannot be missed is awaiting after 3500 km sailing east, while in case of easter island they sailed ( at least ) 1500 km to hit a tiny spot.
Edited by Sander - 25-Mar-2008 at 05:39
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Posted: 25-Mar-2008 at 00:42 |
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim
... The Javanese, Tanzanians, Kenyans, Zimbabweans and Madagascans are however, and they all were writing down what the king had for dinner.
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Really? If you mean the Austronesian settlement of Madagascar, as far as I know there didn't carry writen language to Africa. If I am wrong, please site sources. That's a topic on which I am very interested.
Anyways, Indonesia is just below the equator, so I guess it is in the Southern Hemisphere, but I forgot about it.
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim
... Its not if you knew it was there. People have sailed Polynesian ships from Easter Island to Chile in modern times.
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Of course I know those ideas. I am Chilean
There is no definitive proof that such a theoretical trip ever happened, though.
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim
... Even if they did go they probably would just have been outnumbered and integrated into the native population. |
Certainly. If that ever happened, the most likely would be it was a one-way-trip.
For instance, the tree of bread and pigs were unknown in South America in pre-contact times. If visits were routinary, then certainly those animals would have existed in the Americas as well.
The only evidence that may point to a possible contact are:
(1) The presence of sweet potato in Polynesia; which could have spread after columbus, anyways, but nobody is certain.
(2) The Araucanian (Mapuche) chicken, that existed in Chile before contact, and that was the only chicken in the Americas.
(3) Curantos, or sea food cooked in a hole in the ground, made of rocks, and covered with vegetables, that could be a parallel invention or a Polynesian influence.
However, everything is circumstancial. No direct evidence of Polynesian presence has ever been found in South America.
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Posted: 25-Mar-2008 at 00:28 |
Originally posted by rider
I think it would be rather difficult to miss S-America if you started towards it...
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If reached South America alive, of course. 3.500 kms. aren't a piece of cake at all. Not even for Polynesians. Even more, Polynesians have many stories about sailors missing.
Originally posted by rider
Oh, Penguin, I did mean the stone constructions and buildings, not statues.
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Well, in that case I agree. Just remember Sacsawaman.
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Posted: 24-Mar-2008 at 18:03 |
I think it would be rather difficult to miss S-America if you started towards it...
Oh, Penguin, I did mean the stone constructions and buildings, not statues.
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Posted: 24-Mar-2008 at 08:32 |
And perhaps the only people in the southern hemisphere that had it. (Incas lacked it, and Mayans aren't in the Southern Hemisphere) |
The Javanese, Tanzanians, Kenyans, Zimbabweans and Madagascans are however, and they all were writing down what the king had for dinner.
To reach it from Easter Island, they would have need to travel 3.525 km. more of open sea. That's too much, I guess. |
Its not if you knew it was there. People have sailed Polynesian ships from Easter Island to Chile in modern times. Even if they did go they probably would just have been outnumbered and integrated into the native population.
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Posted: 23-Mar-2008 at 13:23 |
That's why I really don't believe Polynesians reached the Americas.
To reach it from Easter Island, they would have need to travel 3.525 km. more of open sea. That's too much, I guess.
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Posted: 22-Mar-2008 at 18:57 |
Originally posted by Mixcoatl
I cant think of any other longer ancient voyage , fully oceanic and non- stop that can be proven. |
Perhaps the people who populated Madagascar? They were Austronesians, so they came at the least from Indonesia.
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Good suggestion.
In case of the deep sea route , which seems the most likely one, the route was Malay archipelago> Nicobars > India > Maledives > Seychelles > Madagscar but in theory Diego Garcia ( below the Maledives) could have been touched on the way. From there the longest open sea leg would be slightly less than 1500 km. Of course, its not said that they used all possible stops- they might as well have skipped some- but i m just pointing out the possibilities.
In case of Easter Island, the funny thing is that I cannot even find a possibility to get there without crossing at least 1500 km of open sea.
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