Similar battle deaths of 300!

Ok?  I assume you have purposefully referenced the 'Charge of the Light Brigade' poem rather than the battle where, although the exact number present is unknown, it is generally accepted to be over 600 in the brigade (not sure what the relevance with cohort is). 

And as you so carefully dangled the bait I shall bite, from your own links it states that cohort does not even remotely translate as 'co-hearts', although the relevance if it did was not clear from your post.  Once again, the etymology is just being invented to support a theory; at least I assume there is a theory (still haven't been able to load you document yet, am still trying though).

My dear Owen!

You quite correctly, in your own thinking wrote these words;

"Your etymology is rather vague, it seems you are using it to justify your own conclusions, although I may be wrong and you are referencing someone else, in which case could you post the link? For instance Almogavars is of an Arabic derivative implying a propensity for violence, or conversely comes from the arabic for captain (this is debated). And Catalonia seems to derive from the latin term for the area Gathia Launia, literally the land of the Goths (and the Alans were not Goths); it is also speculated by some that the terms Catalan may be an evolution from the name of the original Iberian tribes of the area the Lacetani. Although it should be reiterated that etymology is a dangerous form of evidence and, when translated through so many languages, loses any form of solid credibility."

Although there exists a lot of historical accounts that derive Catalanian, from the word "Almogavars!"

Perhaps you should make your search more pervasive or invasive?



Oh! By the way I have sent you a lot of my material via E-mail!

Regards,

Edited by opuslola - 05-Dec-2010 at 20:03

Hello Opuslola,  I have sent you a PM and look forward to seeing what you have got to say.  Once I've received and read it I shall return for the debate to continue.

I'm still unsure as to the relevance of the fact that the number 300 keeps emerging; do you have an idea as to why these must be connected, other than the number 300?

Your etymology is rather vague, it seems you are using it to justify your own conclusions, although I may be wrong and you are referencing someone else, in which case could you post the link?  For instance Almogavars is of an Arabic derivative implying a propensity for violence, or conversely comes  from the arabic for captain (this is debated).  And Catalonia seems to derive from the latin term for the area Gathia Launia, literally the land of the Goths (and the Alans were not Goths); it is also speculated by some that the terms Catalan may be an evolution from the name of the original Iberian tribes of the area the Lacetani.  Although it should be reiterated that etymology is a dangerous form of evidence and, when translated through so many languages, loses any form of solid credibility.

You mention the frequent accounts of 300 dying within the Catalan Company, is it not possible that the form of combat/tactics they were involved in produced a similar amount of losses, and chronicles found it easier to round to a particular number rather than gather accurate figures?  Also the idea that the Templars were controlled by a state or region seems to ignore the sources and the intrepid fear states had for the ever increasing growth and power of the Templars as an autonomous group that spanned the whole of Christendom.

I am still intrigued as to what your hypothesis is, so far you've shown chroniclers like to round numbers to 300 a lot, in particular circumstances.  But these 300 don't share similar fates, they don't have the same foundations, they don't have the same causes for combat and they don't appear linked in anyway - although that last point may be wrong depending on your uniting theory.

As always, looking forward to hearing from you

This is a very involved subject, directed to point out the massive use of 300 warriors/knights in a variety of times and places whereby certain repetative points seem to merge!

Thus, at this site;

http://hispanismo.org/english/11502-almogavars-james-i-peter-iii-catalonia-aragon.html

You can read about the band of 300 Frankish knights under the leadership of Hugh deBrienne!;

"At the Battle of Gagliano (Sicily) against the three hundred handpicked French knights ironically calling themselves the Knights of Death, more than a hundred of them fell victim to these tactics. The Almogavars "went about amongst them as if they were walking in a garden" (Muntaner, 458)."

Other accounts say that the number of the Knights of Death were 300! The Almogavars (Alms givers?) also known as the Catalan Company, had a number of accounts of the loss of 300, first of all when they were mercs under the employ of the Greeks of Constantinople, 300 of their numbers were reportedly slain at a banquet by the other mercs of the Greeks which are known to us today as the Alans! Let's see we have the "alans" fighting the "Cat-alans!", this, in its self, is strange!

But in another element soon there after, these same Catalans were involved as mercs employed by Waltier/Walter/Gautier de Brienne in his attempt to take back his lands in Greece proper!

A "Duke of Athens" by the name of Jean/John/Jacques? de la Roche, is also said to have attacked a larger force with his 300 kinghts!

Also; http://books.google.com/books?id=lhDPAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA146&lpg=PA146&dq=brienne+gagliano&source=bl&ots=iN6ohpxawO&sig=OP54oLaTfVdqKnd7NAw344rWQUo&hl=en&ei=XtrDS4iWHcK78gb8883ICA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CBIQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q&f=false

regarding the Knights Templar, it seems this site states that in 1268 CE, the Knights were underthe control of the Catalans!

http://www.fortunecity.com/tatooine/acegarp/898/6411789.htm

More material can be found amongst these sites!

http://www.ask.com/web?&o=101881&l=dis&q=hugh%20deBrienne%20and%20catalans

Note that preparations for the eighth Crusade, reportedly began in 1268 CE! See;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eighth_Crusade

Perhaps you can fill in some of the blanks since I am now constained by time?



Edited by opuslola - 01-Dec-2010 at 15:15

From the last internet site I left above you will find, amongst a lot of other good information, this;

"By the time he had reached the age of 60, according to traditional historians, or about 35-40, according to Buckley, Jean/John de Brienne had won recognition as a courageous, able, and determined knight, though he lacked any substantial fortune. This was demonstrated in 1208, when envoys from the Holy Land invited France's King Philip II Augustus (1165-1223) to select a husband for Maria, the daughter of Queen Isabella of Jerusalem and Conrad Montferrat, the heiress of the Kingdom of Jerusalem. Philip selected Jean de Brienne, who had previously taken part in the Fourth Crusade (1202-1204) during the papacy of Pope Innocent III.
Borrowing 40,000 “livres tournois” from King Philip and an equal sum from Pope Innocent III, Jean de Brienne and 300 knights left for Palestine. Landing at Haifa on 13 September, 1210, he proceeded to Acre. There he married Maria of Jerusalem on 15 September, 1210. On 3 October, 1210, he was crowned with Mary as King and Queen of Jerusalem at Tyre. A daughter, Isabella, was born to this marriage in 1212, but Maria died due to complications of childbirth. John continued to rule as regent for the heiress, his infant daughter…
According to historical and genealogical accounts, Jean de Brienne and his third
wife, Berengaria,had a son, Alphonse de Brienne. Alphonse was bom about 1224
or 1225, probably in Spain, the traditional home of his mother, or France. The
following information is found in the Historie Genealogique de laMaison Royale
de France, 6, published in 1730:

“Alfonse de Brienne, comte d’Eu, etoit Chambrier de France au mois de Janoier 1258. Il accompagna le Roi S. Loius au voyage d’Afrique; & mourut a Tunis le 25 aout 1270. le meme jour que Roi Saint Louis ... Il etoit fils de Jean de Brienne roi de Jerusalem, & de Bengere de Castille, don’t les ancestres”."

The key quote above being;

"Borrowing 40,000 “livres tournois” from King Philip and an equal sum from Pope Innocent III, Jean de Brienne and 300 knights left for Palestine. Landing at Haifa on 13 September, 1210, he proceeded to Acre. There he married Maria of Jerusalem on 15 September, 1210. On 3 October, 1210, he was crowned with Mary as King and Queen of Jerusalem at Tyre."

So, Jean/John de Brienne had 300 kinghts accompany him to the Levant!

Is there any reason to not believe he was a "knight Templar?"

As a sample of the problems involved in consensual history, have any of you ever heard of this? (The predecessor of Avigion?)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anagni

And perhaps you should also read this?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crema,_Italy

Especially concerning the battle!



Edited by opuslola - 30-Nov-2010 at 17:09

Thanks for the above post! I might well post more about these valiant warriors sometime, but you did seem to get the gist of it!

But, have you ever heard of a band of 300 knights of Franks, who also fought to the last?

As I remember it happened in Sicily! And the leader of this crew of 300 also had a mighty pedigree!

His first name, as our currently accepted history gives us was "?"

Hint, the first letter was "H!", as I remember!

Perhaps you might well look closely at this list of historical events?

http://www.allcrusades.com/CHRONOLOGICAL/chrono-1200-1249.html

Edited by opuslola - 30-Nov-2010 at 15:56

Owenreess!

How nice you might well ask about the famous or infamous death of 300 male lovers, in a battle with Phillip and Alexander the Great!

Just how many respondents on this site have ever heard of them?

How about you, insted of me, will provide other readers with the requisite information?

Regards,

Thanks for putting that up, many similarities are evident.   I don't quite understand what you over all point is?  Is it that Florus is quite evidently is rehashing classic Greek tales and heroic battles to fill out early Roman history?  The number of 300 Fabii implies that, as Livy doesn't give them a number (or have I missed it?).  With the Templars you wonder if that is a coincidence of numbers or an attempt to make reference to the Spartan 300, pay homage almost or imply that the Templars role was equivilent to that at Thermopylae - similar to the Theban Sacred Band who also numbered 300 and died in battle against the Macedonians.  What's your take on what Florus is doing?

Second Battle of Lacolle Mills  

Edited by Pytheus - 26-Nov-2010 at 20:03