Goguri, Korean or Chinese?

related doesn't mean the same, in Nurhachi's eyes the Ming state is also related to Chosun, in fact thats what Chosun claims itself. I'm merely trying to distinguish the difference between nation and ethnicity as well as heritage.

"Ummm...no.  More number doen't mean that they were as effective."

 

No more number did mean they were more effective. Or else Silla would have fallen.

 

 "I don't remember any part in any history book that said Koguryo was a vassal of Han.  "

"Koguryo never was a vassal to Han...to Wei..yes..for a bit...and then they betrayed them in battle or something to the sort. "

 

Both Han shu mentioned it, Koguryo was a vassal since its existence.

 

"169 AD  The king was actually an idiot who killed his brother to get into throne.  He also surrendered without raising a sword like a real king.  I don't expect much from that king."

 

The point is that when you asked when Koguryo was almost conquered by the Han I gave a reply from a section in Hou Han Shu.

 

"By yen, you mean (��)? "

Can't read the symbol. The Yen I'm mentioning is Muron Yen. Whose culture is quite different, but whats your point of cultural similarily?

 

"Actually primary sources confirm Koguryo as being closer to Silla/Pekjae compared to China.  Some Chinese sources you want to revise:

�������������������, ��������, ����������� <Foreign/South histoyry 54- bekjae>"

 

I never said anything about cultural similarity, my point is Koguryo was viewed as a different nation than Silla and Paekche during the time, no common term is used to describe either them as one. Why don't you also give the title of the source.

 

It was toppled by both armies with Tang contributing significantly more.

Ummm...no.  More number doen't mean that they were as effective.

Koguryo was considered, "Korean" or at least part or Koryo (Gaoli) history as it was included in Samguk Yusa.  Korea was eventually unfied...I don't know where you get that Korea never was unified...

Shilla was the only one standing.  -.-

On the contrast it was at its height, spreading its influence over most of central asia as far as the Oxus river, in the same year Koguryo became independent, the Han toppled the western Xiongnu empier of Zhi Zhi. Koguryo's independence at this time is quite meaningless to Han at this period, since the Xiongnu has already submitted, and Han still held the northwestern penisula, there is no need to secure its eastern border, especially since Koguryo still recognize itself as a vassal.

I don't remember any part in any history book that said Koguryo was a vassal of Han. 

Yes, during the reign of Han Lin Di of Eastern Han in approximately 170 a.d., The ruler of Koguryo raided the Han commaderies in Northerwest Korea, an expedition was sent and crushed the army, the King submitted and appologized, no more disturbances happened in that quarter for the remaining of Lin Di's reign.

169 AD  The king was actually an idiot who killed his brother to get into throne.  He also surrendered without raising a sword like a real king.  I don't expect much from that king.

Koguri's expansion was steady and it haven't overan most of the peninsula until the 5th century a.d., at various times they were quite unsuccessful and pushed far back eevn been subjugated by the Yen at one point.

By yen, you mean (��)?  Because from what I know, they were identical with Koguryo in terms of law and costume.

Yes that would be so, however there is still a problem, Silla did not claim Koguryo right after it conquers it, it was Koryo that did, which was centuries after the fall of Koguryo. The Sam Guk yusa was written in the 11th century under Koryo from the sources of the 3 kingdoms, and at the time of Koguryo, Silla and Koguri was clearly two states that has no single word including them both whatsoever. Paekche on the other hand and Silla share the common word of Han. Koguryo was considered a complete different state at the time and primary sources as well as demographical evidence has confirmed that. Thats not to say that Koreans can't claim its origin however as prior to the rise of nation states there is nothing clearly defined, and parts of Koguryo's people live in Modern Korea but parts also live in China. Mexicans today also claim sucessors of the various people living in Mexico but that certainly does not mean the Aztecs and the Olmecs are the same people. Even Egyptians today claim successors to ancient egyptians.

Actually primary sources confirm Koguryo as being closer to Silla/Pekjae compared to China.  Some Chinese sources you want to revise:

�������������������, ��������, ����������� <Foreign/South histoyry 54- bekjae>

 Bekjae's current costume and language is somewhat like Koguryo's; the only difference lies on the way they don't grab both hands together during walking, and the fact that they do't open their legs when praying(ahhh- don't know how to explain it in english)

�����������������<history of south, 79>

Bekjae's language and costume is on the big picture, like koguryos

 

but we do care about my homeland Manchuria...

Don't worry.  99.6% of Korean politicians are so corrupt that all what they think is getting more votes and eating more national treasury.  Besides, we just want peace (and even unification) with North Korea without any foreign intervention, not manchuria. 

To the Chinese, Goguri is not of great importance. I hadn't known what it is until I read the newspaper.

We simply don't care!

He claimed both.

"wouldn't that be reason to exclude Silla from Korean history, rather than Koguryo? if the succession went Gochosun->Koguryo->Balhae->Koryo?"

 

It would, only if we are certain that Wang Kon or Kung Ye are actually related to the people of Koguryo rather than a Sillan that simply claimed to inherit Koguryo. But since his home was in the south we have reason to belief he was a native of Silla and not Koguryo.

 

 

Originally posted by warhead Its kao kou Li for all that matter.

In the XinHua newspaper thingy I  always saw it as Gao Gou Li....

 "It was born from Mahan, one of the Samhan, but it's creation myth states that it's founder, Onjo, was the son of one of the Kings of Koguryo.  So it seems that Baekje was a mix between the two cultures."

 

The founder is quite irrelevant, unless he want to make his state different, since ancient Chosun is also said to be found by Ji Fa Zi, it doesn't mean its Chinese or that its a mix of Chinese and native culture since archeological evidence haven't shown much similarity to China prior to the Han conquest.

Baekje's actually a very interesting entity.  It was born from Mahan, one of the Samhan, but it's creation myth states that it's founder, Onjo, was the son of one of the Kings of Koguryo.  So it seems that Baekje was a mix between the two cultures.

BTW People...stop calling it Goguri/Koguri.  It has never been that.  It doesn't fit with the yale, Mcune/register, or New Korean Romanization systems.  It's either Goguryeo or Koguryo.  Unless of course you're japanese and then it's Kokuri. 


Edited by Gubukjanggoon

Han, Wei, Tang, Yuan, Qing.. all have different origins, yet they are all Chinese.

what connects them all? claim of succession.

Koguryo and Balhae were successed by Koryo.

is there anyone who claims Koryo was not Korean?

if you want to say Koguryo is not Korean, you should be prepared to say that Yuan, Qing, etc are not Chinese either..