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What is "Evil" ? |
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pekau 
Caliph 
Atlantean Prophet Joined: 08-Oct-2006 Location: Korea, South Online Status: Offline Posts: 3335 |
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 Topic: What is "Evil" ?Posted: 25-Feb-2007 at 22:39 |
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Agreed. There is definitely the difference between good and evil.
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Brian J Checco
General 
Eli Manning Joined: 30-Jan-2007 Online Status: Offline Posts: 925 |
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Posted: 25-Feb-2007 at 17:24 |
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It still a case of subjectivity, dandeb. Your argument is flawed based
on the value-judgment systems unique in every human brain. Also, by
quantifying, say, killing, as evil, you have already interjected your
own unique value-judgment on what can very easily be considered (from a
subjective standpoint) a neutral, or even a good, act. Or, to beg the
question even further... you point out that we have the moral right to
do what we deem appropriate if it will improve our lives. Then, is
killing someone (for my own benefit) a just action? Let's say the
person is doing something that I (based on my own unique value-judgment determinism) would deem wrong, like rape for instance (which his own unique value-judgment system has deemed morally acceptable, and will enable to further improve his own life), and I kill him. Is that wrong?
In order to answer any question about ethics, to me it seems apparent that you need to acknowledge the presence of some of underlying moral objectivity; otherwise, any argument one way or the other is subjectivists, and inherently full of contradictions. By 'acknowledging and underlying moral objectivity,' I mean God (or some permutation of Gods and Goddesses, or even just the scientific building blocks of the universe, which themselves adhere to things we call 'natural laws.'). Unfortunately, I'm not sure such a thing exists, or ever existed, but it would sure make this argument a hell of a lot more 'over.' Cheers. |
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Posted: 14-Feb-2007 at 17:40 |
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And I am unsure how you can justify your response if you have fully read my message...Read the last line again! Also, if you had read past the first line you wpould have seen how I said that by doing what you suppose I hold to be things ethically acceptable, we prevent our own personal advancement which is at the basisi of the ethical argument I outlined.
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Posted: 14-Feb-2007 at 17:36 |
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I know I say this with almost 99.9% certainty of correctness...This never happened!
A great analogy for all those struggling with beliefs is to consider the analogy of the tea-pot orbiting mars. There is no way of proving that there isn't a tea-pot orbiting Mars but the chances are so slim there is no point in believing there is one. What this has to do with good and evil is a bit hard to see but basically it comes down to the morals of certain religions specificly Christianity...Blessed are the meek, they shall inherit the world...not a wise decision...besides why the meek, not necessarily the migty but why not give it to the mediocre...that sounds better...blessed are the mediocre for they shall inherit the world!
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pekau
Caliph
Atlantean Prophet Joined: 08-Oct-2006 Location: Korea, South Online Status: Offline Posts: 3335 |
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Posted: 14-Feb-2007 at 15:08 |
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According to your theory, then I have every right to kill, rob and enslave anyone I please. I am unsure how you could justify such actions.
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Posted: 14-Feb-2007 at 11:46 |
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There is no good and evil. There is your conscience and people would say this is where good and evil are defined as what is good and what is wrong in terms of others. I would disagree with this as like ethics and morals, what is good and what is bad are personal things. By deduction then there is no one thing as good and evil and our actions should not be defined on these lines, instead we should act by what we feel is right in ourselves with regards to the outcomes of our actions but not as to how they effect others buit rather how they effect our ability to live as well as we can. This does not mean that because there is no good and evil people are free to harm what they like merely it means that there can be no such thing as universal evil or universal good.
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pekau
Caliph
Atlantean Prophet Joined: 08-Oct-2006 Location: Korea, South Online Status: Offline Posts: 3335 |
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Posted: 03-Jan-2007 at 02:36 |
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Ha, good one Paul. There are many theories that said Einstein was not the the protagonist, so you may still have the chance
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Paul
General
AE Immoderator Joined: 21-Aug-2004 Location: Hyperborea Online Status: Offline Posts: 952 |
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Posted: 01-Jan-2007 at 23:36 |
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Does evil exist? Edited by Paul - 01-Jan-2007 at 23:39 |
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Light blue touch paper and stand well back
http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk |
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pekau
Caliph
Atlantean Prophet Joined: 08-Oct-2006 Location: Korea, South Online Status: Offline Posts: 3335 |
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Posted: 01-Jan-2007 at 23:00 |
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A great story to explain what evil is. I personally memorized it myself
Warning, copied texts that don't belong to pekau. (Though I wish it was my work...) I will reference it if someone wants it. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Does evil exist? The university professor challenged his students with this question. Did God create everything that exists? A student bravely replied, "Yes, he did!" "God created everything? The professor asked. "Yes sir", the student replied. The professor answered, "If God created everything, then God created evil since evil exists, and according to the principal that our works define who we are then God is evil". The student became quiet before such an answer. The professor was quite pleased with himself and boasted to the students that he had proven once more that the Christian faith was a myth. Another student raised his hand and said, "Can I ask you a question professor?" "Of course", replied the professor. The student stood up and asked, "Professor, does cold exist?" "What kind of question is this? Of course it exists. Have you never been cold?" The students snickered at the young man's question. The young man replied, "In fact sir, cold does not exist. According to the laws of physics, what we consider cold is in reality the absence of heat. Every body or object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero (-460 degrees F) is the total absence of heat; all matter becomes inert and incapable of reaction at that temperature. Cold does not exist. We have created this word to describe how we feel if we have no heat." The student continued, "Professor, does darkness exist?" The professor responded, "Of course it does." The student replied, "Once again you are wrong sir, darkness does not exist either. Darkness is in reality the absence of light. Light we can study, but not darkness. In fact we can use Newton's prism to break white light into many colors and study the various wavelengths of each color. You cannot measure darkness. A simple ray of light can break into a world of darkness and illuminate it. How can you know how dark a certain space is? You measure the amount of light present. Isn't this correct? Darkness is a term used by man to describe what happens when there is no light present." Finally the young man asked the professor, "Sir, does evil exist?" Now uncertain, the professor responded, "Of course as I have already said. We see it every day. It is in the daily example of man's inhumanity to man. It is in the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world. These manifestations are nothing else but evil." To this the student replied, "Evil does not exist sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is not like faith, or love that exist just as does light and heat. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no light." The professor sat down. The young man's name Albert Einstein. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
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Batu
Baron 
Joined: 31-Aug-2006 Location: Barad-dur Online Status: Offline Posts: 405 |
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Posted: 18-Dec-2006 at 11:07 |
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you cant say for yourself that you are evil or good.other people should decide for you!
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A wizard is never late,nor he is early he arrives exactly when he means to :) ( Gandalf the White in the Third Age of History Empire Of Istari )
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vulkan02
Arch Duke 
Termythinator Joined: 27-Apr-2005 Location: U$A Online Status: Offline Posts: 1835 |
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Posted: 11-Oct-2006 at 07:53 |
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When you know that you are about to act on something deemed unjust and you have all the means to but you hold back your will to, then that is evil.
Edited by vulkan02 - 11-Oct-2006 at 07:58 |
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The beginning of a revolution is in reality the end of a belief - Le Bon
Destroy first and construction will look after itself - Mao |
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The Philosopher
Samurai 
Joined: 08-Sep-2006 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 121 |
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Posted: 24-Sep-2006 at 21:55 |
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and about the noah's ark story, almost all religions in the world have a story about a massive flood. so i've read and heard
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The Philosopher
Samurai
Joined: 08-Sep-2006 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 121 |
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Posted: 24-Sep-2006 at 21:51 |
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that is the Thompson chain reference bible
NIV. but, although it doesn't say the name Lucifer in there, it talks about the son of the dawn. and Lucifer was the angel of light, thus the son of the dawn. and also, in the original Hebrew this is true. |
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The Philosopher
Samurai
Joined: 08-Sep-2006 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 121 |
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Posted: 24-Sep-2006 at 21:44 |
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ok, heres where the story is Isaiah 14:11-20 11 All your pomp has been brought down to the grave, along with the noise of your harps; maggots are spread our beneath you and worms cover you.12 How you have fallen from heaven O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations! 13 You said in your heart, "I will ascend to heaven, I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. 14 I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High." 15 But you are brought down to the grave, to the depths of the pit. 16 Those who see you stare at you, they ponder your fate; "Is this the man who shook the earth and made kingdoms tremble,17 the man who made the world a desert, who overthrew its cities and would not let his captives go home?" 18 All the kings of the nations lie in state, each in his own tomb.19 But you are cast our of your tomb, like a rejected branch; you are covered with the slain, with those pierced by the sword, those who descend to the stones of the pit, Lik a corpse trampled underfoot, 20 you will not join them in burial, for you have destroyed your land, and killed your people. |
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gok_toruk
Arch Duke
9 Oghuz Joined: 28-Apr-2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1831 |
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Posted: 24-Sep-2006 at 12:42 |
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In Islamic thoughts also, all people return to God; but not necessarily paradise. If you're good, that's paradise and if not, hell. I mean, when we lie, don't we really accomplish something? Or is it just in our mind? I don't think so. You DO something and you see the results. Or are we punished because of our thoughts only?
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Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.
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JanusRook
Sultan 
Ad Maiorem Dei Gloriam Joined: 03-Aug-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2419 |
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Posted: 24-Sep-2006 at 06:42 |
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As a mild theocrat I don't see how religion being in politics is evil as long as the religion promotes peace and intelligent thought. However my own feelings on fundamentalists....I'm inclined to agree with you.
Even as a theocrat, I also agree that putting religion in American politics is un-American, putting morals and traditional values however is not.
On the topic of good and evil:
Evil only exists as a result of man's distance from the divine plan of the creator. Only when one is in accordance with the natural order can one be freed from evil. However we are born into the world with an inclination towards evil and sin. This is a mystery known only to the creator and until we reach a stage in our development when the divine plan is revealed we cannot hope to understand it. This isn't to say that men are created evil, we are all born good because everything that is created by God is good and can only be made evil by acts of free will that go contrary to the divine order.
So basically everything is good. We screw up and make things evil because of our distance from God. Only through grace can we hope to eliminate evil.
Also to those that had questions about the fall here is it from the roman catechism (paraphrased by me):
The angels were themselves created good as well as the demons. However in the timeless era before creation the angels had to make a choice for themselves whether they would follow God or reject him as their lord. The ones that "rebelled" merely rejected God, they never staged a battle in heaven. The reason that they remain in hell is not because God is unwilling to forgive them but because they are unwilling to be forgiven. (The utter rejection of God is also in my belief the only thing that one can truly go to hell for, everyone else just enters the state of purgatory.)
Also as an aside, I remember a few years ago reading a book I believe called the mythology of christianity or something like that. It was written by a british atheist in the first half of the twentieth century who after studying catholic theology and tradition, came up with some very logical and sound (to me at least) observations on the fall.
According to this book, the devils merely rejected God, but seeing as how God is everywhere they couldn't escape his light, so they had to go the one place where his light did not penetrate as deeply, inside themselves. This gave me an image of hell that is very different than the traditional view. One where there's an infinite plane of light (kind of like the prison in THX 1139) and the only thing on this plane are giant statues (which are the outer shell of the demons).
It isn't a matter of whether we deserve paradise. Just like it doesn't matter if a child deserves gifts, a parent will still give him gifts if they see fit. It's just like this with God, no matter how much we accomplish in this world we are all destined to return to him. Paradise isn't so much a reward but a destination we all must be prepared to reach.
Again, this is in christian tradition, I believe though it can be compatible with most other religions.
(Edited by Flyingzone to increase the size of writing.) Edited by flyingzone - 24-Sep-2006 at 17:05 |
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Economic Communist, Political Progressive, Social Conservative.
Unless otherwise noted source is wiki. |
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gok_toruk
Arch Duke
9 Oghuz Joined: 28-Apr-2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1831 |
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Posted: 24-Sep-2006 at 04:56 |
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Not to change the topic, but if 'good' and 'bad' are just concepts in religions like Islam or Christianity, so what are 'paradise' and 'hell' for?
If they're just in our minds and not in the practice, so why do we deserve 'paradise' or 'hell' while we really haven't accomplished anything? Edited by gok_toruk - 24-Sep-2006 at 05:03 |
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Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.
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Omar al Hashim
King 
Suspended Joined: 05-Jan-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 5697 |
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Posted: 23-Sep-2006 at 23:45 |
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I mean that the Lucifer story you told us is not correct for all
versions of christanity, and I think that it may be possible to argue a
different story from the bible. But I'm not sure about that, which is
why I asked you to justify your story.
Can you prove to me that the story you said above is correct for christianity? PS: Actually you'd be surprised how many popular versions of a common legend come from the other religions book. For example the Noahs ark story, I've picked up muslim books and read the christian story (which doesn't contradict the Quranic story, but adds details that are unsubstatianed) and nowadays, many christian groups are adopting the Quranic version as a correct interpretation to the biblical one (as that doesn't quite gell with reality - or even itself) Edited by Omar al Hashim - 23-Sep-2006 at 23:51 |
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The Philosopher
Samurai
Joined: 08-Sep-2006 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 121 |
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Posted: 23-Sep-2006 at 23:40 |
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ok, i didn't realize that he was talking about islam, and i don't believe that you can argue one religeon from another religeons book.
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Omar al Hashim
King
Suspended Joined: 05-Jan-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 5697 |
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Posted: 23-Sep-2006 at 23:33 |
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Xi was talking about Islam, you corrected him by talking about christianity. Hence cross religions. Arguing about things like that cross religion is pretty much pointless, however I believe it may be possible to argue the muslim point of view from the bibe? Do you know the basic differences between Islam and Christianity? 'the mother of all books' is the Quran. Edited by Omar al Hashim - 23-Sep-2006 at 23:38 |
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