Author |
Share Topic Topic Search Topic Options
|
MengTzu
General
Retired Moderator
Joined: 11-Aug-2004
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 957
|
Quote Reply
Topic: Goguri, Korean or Chinese? Posted: 08-Feb-2005 at 18:27 |
I think I've written about this so many times that you're probably sick of my repeating myself. Koguryo is important to the traditional Korean view and this new PRC view, because it serves as a symbol of national identity. For the Koreans, as you said, it represents the founding of the Korean people, for the PRC, it resolves the problem of "what is a Chinese." Whether PRC is trying to create a greater, broader Chinese identity for the sake of expansionist conquest is arguable: but the fact that Chinese identity has expanded and evolved is undeniable. The most simple solution here is to "share" Koguryo's legacy, and it is not only simple, but realistic.
|
|
MengTzu
General
Retired Moderator
Joined: 11-Aug-2004
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 957
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 08-Feb-2005 at 18:27 |
Originally posted by coolstorm
Do you really think PRC claims Goguri because of immaturity and old reaons? Hopelessly wrong. |
No, I don't believe that the PRC made such claims because of immaturity and old reasons. I made it clear that I believe that they made such claims as solutions to issues of race and ethnicity. Please don't quote me out of context.
They do it for some very good reasons beyond many's understanding. |
These reasons are actually not too dificult to understand. It's obvious that China is trying to redefine their national identity in view of the muti-ethnic society within itself. National identity shifts require historical shifts as well. I never said this is a bad reason, only that their conclusions are problematic.
|
|
coolstorm
Chieftain
Joined: 11-Nov-2004
Location: Hong Kong
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1066
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 08-Feb-2005 at 21:57 |
"It's obvious that China is trying to redefine their national identity in view of the muti-ethnic society within itself. "
Wrong and hopelessly wrong.
China does not need to claim Goguri to fulfill that purpose for the complexity of its population made up.
That's why I said it's beyond some people's understanding.
I am still waiting for someone to give me an answer to why korean people claim goguri.
Edited by coolstorm
|
���DZj�~�� ��������
�� �� �C �q �D �� �� �� �� �T �� �� �g �A �� �� �� �� �� �U �N �� ��
|
|
Gubook Janggoon
Sultan
Retired Global Moderator
Joined: 08-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2187
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 08-Feb-2005 at 22:01 |
Originally posted by coolstorm
"It's obvious that China is trying to redefine their national identity in view of the muti-ethnic society within itself. "
Wrong and hopelessly wrong.
China does not need to claim Goguri to fulfill that purpose for the complexity of its population made up.
That's why I said it's beyond some people's understanding.
I am still waiting for someone to give me an answer to why korean people claim goguri. |
Dude..I already tried to explain that...I even adressed it to you! ...that is unless you have decided to ignore me... ...but I know good 'ol coolstorm would never do that!
Hm...I'll just repost what I posted for you.
Koreans see Goguryeo as one of the "Founding Fathers", if you will, of
Korea and Koreans themselves...however distorted that view may
be.
In my opinion, Goguryeo became "officially" a part of the Korean
spectrum of history when Samguk Yusa was written during the Goryeo
dynasty. That's officially...it has always been in the back of
people's minds though as the Goryeo dynasty itself was founded in an
attempt to revive Goguryeo...hence the name....Goryeo started out as
"Hugoguryeo", meaning later Goguryeo.
Why does the PRC claiming Goguryeo as a part of Chinese history seem a
bit strange? Most, if not all, chinese texts describe Goguryeo as
a state outside of the middle kingdom...and as a barbarian state...if
that means anything...
Hope I made that clearer to you Coolstorm!
|
Edited by Gubukjanggoon
|
|
coolstorm
Chieftain
Joined: 11-Nov-2004
Location: Hong Kong
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1066
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 08-Feb-2005 at 23:31 |
"In my opinion, Goguryeo became "officially" a part of the Korean spectrum of history when Samguk Yusa was written during the Goryeo dynasty. That's officially...it has always been in the back of people's minds though as the Goryeo dynasty itself was founded in an attempt to revive Goguryeo...hence the name....Goryeo started out as "Hugoguryeo", meaning later Goguryeo. "
Very good, and it makes a lot of sense.
That's also why Taiwan is part of China, and China claims Taiwan.
So, before anyone says anything about Taiwan, please do consider how we feel.
Else you shouldn't blame us for doing the same thing to you.
^_^
Edited by coolstorm
|
���DZj�~�� ��������
�� �� �C �q �D �� �� �� �� �T �� �� �g �A �� �� �� �� �� �U �N �� ��
|
|
MengTzu
General
Retired Moderator
Joined: 11-Aug-2004
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 957
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 09-Feb-2005 at 13:58 |
Originally posted by coolstorm
"It's obvious that China is trying to redefine their national identity in view of the muti-ethnic society within itself. "
Wrong and hopelessly wrong.
China does not need to claim Goguri to fulfill that purpose for the complexity of its population made up.
That's why I said it's beyond some people's understanding. |
Do you understand it then? If you do, can you explain it?
|
|
Elanjie
Samurai
Joined: 06-Feb-2005
Location: China
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 129
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 09-Feb-2005 at 21:58 |
nice view,ruins in china of Goguri
|
|
Elanjie
Samurai
Joined: 06-Feb-2005
Location: China
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 129
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 09-Feb-2005 at 21:59 |
|
|
Gubook Janggoon
Sultan
Retired Global Moderator
Joined: 08-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2187
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 09-Feb-2005 at 22:07 |
Yes very nice pictures! I believe the last one is called the
"General's Tomb"...but Elanjie...could you please elaborate more on how
you have Goguryeo blood?
|
|
Elanjie
Samurai
Joined: 06-Feb-2005
Location: China
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 129
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 10-Feb-2005 at 21:45 |
Originally posted by Gubukjanggoon
Yes very nice pictures! I believe the last one is called the "General's Tomb"...but Elanjie...could you please elaborate more on how you have Goguryeo blood? |
As you quote ,the water is too clear there is no fish to live.
i think this is also very popular in china,as another saying come from history books.
water is too clear ,there is no fish to live;people try to be extremely rational and too examing, there would be no one around him.
ˮ,;,ͽ
|
|
Gubook Janggoon
Sultan
Retired Global Moderator
Joined: 08-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2187
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 10-Feb-2005 at 23:54 |
Originally posted by Elanjie
Originally posted by Gubukjanggoon
Yes very nice pictures!
I believe the last one is called the "General's Tomb"...but
Elanjie...could you please elaborate more on how you have Goguryeo
blood? |
As you quote ,the water is too clear there is no fish to live.
i think this is also very popular in china,as another saying come from history books.
water
is too clear ,there is no fish to live;people try to be extremely
rational and too examing, there would be no one around him.
ˮ,;,ͽ
|
You're speaking in riddles here and are not being very clear.. Could
you perhaps state clearly what you mean..and answer my question from
before? Thanks!
|
|
I/eye
Baron
Joined: 03-Aug-2004
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 498
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 14-Feb-2005 at 12:33 |
Very good, and it makes a lot of sense.
That's also why Taiwan is part of China, and China claims Taiwan.
So, before anyone says anything about Taiwan, please do consider how we feel.
Else you shouldn't blame us for doing the same thing to you.
^_^ |
i don't really have a stance on Taiwan, but I don't think that is the same.. Koguryo to Korea is many becoming one. Taiwan to China is one becoming two..
|
[URL=http://imageshack.us]
|
|
Gubook Janggoon
Sultan
Retired Global Moderator
Joined: 08-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2187
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 14-Feb-2005 at 13:30 |
I've just realized, the first picture Elanjie posted
reminds me a lot of Aztec/Mayan ruins....It's so amazing how different
people are often attracted to the same thing...I think Tobodai once
speculated that it's the same drive that causes people to build sky
scrapers...
|
|
KohYoung
Immortal Guard
Joined: 10-Apr-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 0
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 10-Apr-2005 at 23:13 |
Hmm... Goguryeo being Chinese or Korean... I think it's neither. It's a
mixture of both korean and Chinese cultures and etc... So how could be
either korean or Chinese? Btw I am of an Goguryeo bloodline (father's
side) however I am of an korean bloodline (mother's side) lol and my
sure name is Koh, pronounced "Go"... My aunt who is an Korean historian
says the Go family is of royal family during the Goguryeo kingdom..
However I do not believe it her...lol..
Edited by KohYoung
|
|
Gubook Janggoon
Sultan
Retired Global Moderator
Joined: 08-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2187
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 10-Apr-2005 at 23:56 |
Originally posted by KohYoung
Hmm... Goguryeo being Chinese or Korean... I think it's neither. It's a
mixture of both korean and Chinese cultures and etc... So how could be
either korean or Chinese? Btw I am of an Goguryeo bloodline (father's
side) however I am of an korean bloodline (mother's side) lol and my
sure name is Koh, pronounced "Go"... My aunt who is an Korean historian
says the Go family is of royal family during the Goguryeo kingdom..
However I do not believe it her...lol..
|
The royal family held the name Go, but that doesn't mean you're related
to them. Go is also the surname of one of the 3 orignal kings of
Jejudo. I hate it when people say that they're part
Goguryeoan. That's fricken impossible.
|
|
KohYoung
Immortal Guard
Joined: 10-Apr-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 0
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 11-Apr-2005 at 00:19 |
lol... Impossible you say? How so? You never know.. People can have blood from anient civilizations
Edited by KohYoung
|
|
Gubook Janggoon
Sultan
Retired Global Moderator
Joined: 08-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2187
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 11-Apr-2005 at 00:49 |
Originally posted by KohYoung
lol... Impossible you say? How so? You never know.. People can have blood from anient civilizations
|
There's no assuarance to that though. The kingdom died hundreds
of years ago. If you have blood from that particluar nation, then
it is extremely small.
The only are only a few people who can rightly claim ancestry to
ancient kingdoms. Such as the Gimhae Gim clan and one of the Tae
clans.
Most of all. Where is your proof?
As for you saying that Goguryeo isn't a Korean state. I
agree. In the modern sense it isn't. The idea of being
Korean hasn't existed until modern times and at earliest sometime
during the late Goryeo dynasty. Shilla, Baekje, and Goguryeo were
3 different nations, of 3 different peoples, of 3 different languages,
and of 3 different cultures. Yet these are all critical to Korean
history. All these different groups have come together to form
what you and I are today.
Goguryeo is just about as Korean as Qing is Chinese.
|
|
KohYoung
Immortal Guard
Joined: 10-Apr-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 0
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 11-Apr-2005 at 00:56 |
I'll just have to just scrunch up some family history to find proof...
lol but anyways, I must disagree with the three kingdoms being entirely
different. They were different yes, however they weren't entirely
different. Bakche was formed from immigrants from Goguryeo and I think
the refugees from the Chinese colonies in korea at the time, I'm not
totally sure. So Goguryeo and Bakche shared some smiliarities.
|
|
Gubook Janggoon
Sultan
Retired Global Moderator
Joined: 08-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2187
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 11-Apr-2005 at 01:02 |
Originally posted by KohYoung
I'll just have to just scrunch up some family history to find proof...
lol but anyways, I must disagree with the three kingdoms being entirely
different. They were different yes, however they weren't entirely
different. Bakche was formed from immigrants from Goguryeo and I think
the refugees from the Chinese colonies in korea at the time, I'm not
totally sure. So Goguryeo and Bakche shared some smiliarities.
|
That's what they claimed.
Supposedly Dongmyeong wang of Goguryeo was the son of some Buyeo king and Onjo wang was supposedly the son of Dongmyeong.
They were pretty damn different though. Culture, Customs, Language. All very much dissimilar.
BTW. I don't think your family historical reccords would go back
to Goguryeo. Mine barely go back to Goryeo and it would be
difficult to continue on the Shilla. In addition to this, after
unification by Shilla, I would think that it wouldn't have been too
popular to claim that one was of an enemy nation.
|
|
KohYoung
Immortal Guard
Joined: 10-Apr-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 0
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 11-Apr-2005 at 01:07 |
well unless the person was extremist of Goguryeo... lol... About the
Goguryeo thing and my family.. I didn't say I believed it but I'll try
looking anyway. With some luck i may find something.
|
|