Author |
Share Topic Topic Search Topic Options
|
Nick1986
Emperor
Mighty Slayer of Trolls
Joined: 22-Mar-2011
Location: England
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7940
|
Quote Reply
Topic: Highland Tartans Posted: 31-Dec-2011 at 20:11 |
Around the time George IV repealed the ban on kilts two Welsh brothers, claiming descent from Bonnie Prince Charlie, wrote a book called Vestarium Scoticum which they claimed was a copy of a long-lost manuscript from the 1500s. While this book has long since been exposed as a forgery, it was influential in designating "ancestral" tartans to the Highland clans, resulting in the kilt becoming Scotland's national dress.
Edited by Nick1986 - 31-Dec-2011 at 20:12
|
Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains!
|
|
Chookie
Pretorian
Joined: 14-Apr-2008
Location: Alba
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 171
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 01-Jan-2012 at 17:01 |
Not quite accurate Nick, The Sobieski Stuart brothers (John Sobieski Stuart and Charles Edward Stuart) were actually a pair of English brothers (John Carter Allen and Charles Manning Allen) who claimed to have been born in Wales, but later claimed to have been born in Versailles. They were nothing more than a pair of con-men who hit the big time.
George IV didn't repeal any acts regarding "the ban on kilts". The Acts of Proscription were rescinded in 1782, while he was crowned in 1821.
Prior to Prinnies visit to Edinburgh, most people in the highlands who wore tartan, wore district tartans due to the vegetable dyes available.
|
For money you did what guns could not do.........
|
|
TheAlaniDragonRising
AE Moderator
Spam Fighter
Joined: 09-May-2011
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6084
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 01-Jan-2012 at 17:52 |
Many of those wearing tartan bought what they could afford rather than sticking to any clan colours. Their needs were to stay warm more than to fit in with a particular design.
|
What a handsome figure of a dragon. No wonder I fall madly in love with the Alani Dragon now, the avatar, it's a gorgeous dragon picture.
|
|
Nick1986
Emperor
Mighty Slayer of Trolls
Joined: 22-Mar-2011
Location: England
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7940
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 01-Jan-2012 at 22:12 |
According to Anne Sutton and Richard Carr's book on Scottish tartans, the number of colors symbolised the individual's social status rather than his clan. Servants wore one color, farmers wore two, officers three, and chieftains five. Druids wore six and the king wore seven, but with the arrival of Christianity priests wore eight colors to demonstrate the church's superiority over the crown
|
Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains!
|
|
Chookie
Pretorian
Joined: 14-Apr-2008
Location: Alba
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 171
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 02-Jan-2012 at 17:49 |
Originally posted by Nick1986
According to Anne Sutton and Richard Carr's book on Scottish tartans, the number of colors symbolised the individual's social status rather than his clan. Servants wore one color, farmers wore two, officers three, and chieftains five. Druids wore six and the king wore seven, but with the arrival of Christianity priests wore eight colors to demonstrate the church's superiority over the crown
|
Sorry Nick, that's utter nonsense. For a start, there is absolutely no evidence that Druids wore tartan, Christian missionaries (priests WTF?), tended to wear self-coloured robes - especially when the Abbeys /Monasteries were established they wore the robes of their order. Another problem with this load of bullshit from Sutton and Carr is that they don't seem to have gathered that there were kings, and there was the High King. Also, in Gaelic culture there were no servants, other than the clan chief and his family (who wore much the same clothing as the rest of the populace) every one was, at worst, a retainer. There is also the not so minor fact, regarding their book, that a sett made up from two colours effectively means a three-colour tartan (warp, weft and crossover) the addition of another colour will increase the mixtures and colours quadratically, not arithmetically.. A sett of six base colours gives fifteen mixtures and twenty-one different colours. The best thing to do with the Sutton / Carr book is consign it to a charity shop, filed under fiction alongside the von Daniken tripe. Effectively a tartan of eight (!) colours is black.
|
For money you did what guns could not do.........
|
|
Nick1986
Emperor
Mighty Slayer of Trolls
Joined: 22-Mar-2011
Location: England
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7940
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 02-Jan-2012 at 21:48 |
Originally posted by TheAlaniDragonRising
Many of those wearing tartan bought what they could afford rather than sticking to any clan colours. Their needs were to stay warm more than to fit in with a particular design.
|
I've also heard tartans were originally region rather than clan-specific. This might explain why the Highlanders depicted in contemporary paintings (like the Jacobite clansmen charging the redcoats at Culloden) wear several different tartans. Perhaps Chookie can tell us more?
|
Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains!
|
|
TheAlaniDragonRising
AE Moderator
Spam Fighter
Joined: 09-May-2011
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6084
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 03-Jan-2012 at 05:31 |
Originally posted by Nick1986
Originally posted by TheAlaniDragonRising
Many of those wearing tartan bought what they could afford rather than sticking to any clan colours. Their needs were to stay warm more than to fit in with a particular design.
|
I've also heard tartans were originally region rather than clan-specific. This might explain why the Highlanders depicted in contemporary paintings (like the Jacobite clansmen charging the redcoats at Culloden) wear several different tartans. Perhaps Chookie can tell us more?
|
Culloden was in 1746, and there were many clans involved, but still I doubt the painting could give you an accurate depiction of how tartan might have been used originally.
|
What a handsome figure of a dragon. No wonder I fall madly in love with the Alani Dragon now, the avatar, it's a gorgeous dragon picture.
|
|
Nick1986
Emperor
Mighty Slayer of Trolls
Joined: 22-Mar-2011
Location: England
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7940
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 03-Jan-2012 at 21:33 |
I heard the picture in this link was taken from life, using Jacobite prisoners as models
|
Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains!
|
|
TheAlaniDragonRising
AE Moderator
Spam Fighter
Joined: 09-May-2011
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6084
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 04-Jan-2012 at 07:11 |
Originally posted by Nick1986
I heard the picture in this link was taken from life, using Jacobite prisoners as models
|
That painting was said to have been painted years after the battle, when it was unlikely those prisoners were still living. Would the painter have gone to the urgent trouble of gathering such information as you say, to only then paint the scene years later?
|
What a handsome figure of a dragon. No wonder I fall madly in love with the Alani Dragon now, the avatar, it's a gorgeous dragon picture.
|
|
Chookie
Pretorian
Joined: 14-Apr-2008
Location: Alba
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 171
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 04-Jan-2012 at 16:22 |
That painting allegedly dates from 1746 and it has a title "The Highland attack on the Grenadier Company of Barrell's King's Own Royal Regiment". Apparently it was painted for "The Butcher" but I can't see any prisoners doing him a favour......
|
For money you did what guns could not do.........
|
|
TheAlaniDragonRising
AE Moderator
Spam Fighter
Joined: 09-May-2011
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6084
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 04-Jan-2012 at 16:59 |
Originally posted by Chookie
That painting allegedly dates from 1746 and it has a title "The Highland attack on the Grenadier Company of Barrell's King's Own Royal Regiment". Apparently it was painted for "The Butcher" but I can't see any prisoners doing him a favour...... |
My mistake, Chookie, the site I had looked on had said a few years later.
'Incident in The Battle of Culloden', by David Morier -- probably painted several years after the uprising. |
Thank you for the clarification.
|
What a handsome figure of a dragon. No wonder I fall madly in love with the Alani Dragon now, the avatar, it's a gorgeous dragon picture.
|
|
Nick1986
Emperor
Mighty Slayer of Trolls
Joined: 22-Mar-2011
Location: England
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7940
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 04-Jan-2012 at 21:15 |
Perhaps the artist took sketches of the highlanders after the battle, either on site or at one of the British prisons? Alternatively, he may have used dead bodies
|
Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains!
|
|
TheAlaniDragonRising
AE Moderator
Spam Fighter
Joined: 09-May-2011
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6084
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 05-Jan-2012 at 11:50 |
Originally posted by Nick1986
Perhaps the artist took sketches of the highlanders after the battle, either on site or at one of the British prisons? Alternatively, he may have used dead bodies
|
I guess All of those are possible, Nick.
|
What a handsome figure of a dragon. No wonder I fall madly in love with the Alani Dragon now, the avatar, it's a gorgeous dragon picture.
|
|
Nick1986
Emperor
Mighty Slayer of Trolls
Joined: 22-Mar-2011
Location: England
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7940
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 05-Jan-2012 at 21:48 |
Or maybe the prisoners were forced to pose long enough for the artist to sketch them? Assuming the government wanted to make life even more miserable for the survivors
|
Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains!
|
|
Nick1986
Emperor
Mighty Slayer of Trolls
Joined: 22-Mar-2011
Location: England
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7940
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 19-Jan-2012 at 19:10 |
Sadly nobody has uploaded the complete Vestiarum Scoticum text online yet, but this website has illustrations of the 75 original tartans Vestarium Scoticum gallery
|
Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains!
|
|
Nick1986
Emperor
Mighty Slayer of Trolls
Joined: 22-Mar-2011
Location: England
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7940
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 19-Oct-2012 at 09:36 |
Any British subject is entitled to wear Royal Stewart tartan if they pledge allegiance to the queen
|
Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains!
|
|