Goguri, Korean or Chinese?

This is it. 

Here is the schedules and plans for the discussion:

Day 1: Post your statements with backup only.  It will be updated below.  No discussions.

Day 2~: Discussion(NOW)

The purpose of this is to make you think rationally about someone else's opinion before you leap into discussion.  I hope you enjoy the discussion!

----here are the reasons for each one's claims.  I will update this place as much as I can---

Key:

Blue: Sides

Red: Start of topic for claim

Black: Thesis/ reasoning behind

------------------------------------------------------------ ----

1. If Goguri is Chinese, then the history of Pekjae is Chinese as well, because the founder of Pekjae is the son of Goguri (just as China is claiming Old Choson to be theirs because according to them, Chinese people went there and build it and therefore it is chinese).  But, ironically, the Chinese is not claiming Pekjae as theirs.  It implies another hidden reasoning behind this claim.  They want secured ownership of Manchuria.  AND GANDO, WHICH MUST BE KOREAN.  They are running out of reasons and thus is claiming Goguri as theirs in hopes of changing the claim to their favor.

2.  If Goguri is Chinese (because it was founded by Chinese, old Choson which Goguri descends is also found by Chinese), then Jin must be Korean.  Here are excerpts from ����, the history book of Jin (a Chinese webiste with the original excerpts (check the second paragraph): http://www.zs2002.com/book/jins/001.htm :

�������������

The founder of Jin is Hambo(Agolta)

���������Σ�Ҵ�׿����

He was 60 years old when he came out of Kori(Koryo) for the first time

���ͯ���֣�׺����������

His brother Agohobol did not follow him and stayed in Kori

---what is that telling?

---------if he came out of Kori for the first time when he founded Jin Dynasty...

----------------------and if Kori was decendant of Shilla, a Korean country,

--------------------------------Wouldn't not Jin be Korean according to Chinese..?

(btw, the decendants of May Teja, the last king of Shilla, claims that Agolta is one of his son.  The Son of Shilla Ruled Jin and therefore Jin is Korean according to Chinese!)

3.  If Goguri is Chinese because its creator was from China and old Choson which Goguri follows also started with Chinese according to Chinese, in addition to all these "influences" and Korea "not having a culture", then Qing is Korean. 

The last name of Nurhaci, the creator of Qing dynastly(����), had the last name of �������� (Aishin Joure)

It means:"love and never forget Shilla" 

Aishin means gold(��), but used Chinese letters to aid pronounciation

Jirio means bond/affinity/relationship(��)

Relationship with gold...but what is that gold?

It all ends up in either Jin Dynasty or the last name of Shilla Kings, Kyongju Kim(��)

------if 1, Jin Dynasty-----

Because the last name originated from Jin Dynasty, meaning love and never forget Jin Dynasty, we get this conflict.  If they envied Jin so much, it implies that jin influenced them a lot.  Meaning, Qing adapted its tradition from Jin and thus does not have culture (Chinese analogy of Korea not having culture).  Since China claims that because of that reason Goguri is theirs, would not that mean beause of that Qing is Jin therefore it is Korean..........?

------if 2, Kyongju Kim(��)-----

Love and never forget Shilla....Nurhaci was born in Manchu, along the borderlines of Pekdu montain.  Koreans live there.  So there is a chance he is Korean.  But then, he makes all thesee stuffs that amek him look as if he was a Korean.

The first example comes in imjin war.  As soon as the war erupted, Nurhaci =sent a letter to the king of Choson, asking to "send these barbarians out of  his motherland".  Because the King refused, he did not invervene.  But you see his intentions

The seconds example comes when Nurhaci revolts against Ming Dynastty.  During the surrender of sanjundo(߲�Ԥ- the treaty officializing Korean "surrender" to Qing) Nurhaci asked Choson "we are in fact sons of kori(koryo) and therefore we are the same country.  You are the same East Tribe, why not join us and instead to Ming?

So Nurhaci was Korean  A korean who was rejected by his own country who nevertheless became the emperor of Qing.  And because the Chinese method implies that if the founder is Chinese then the country is Chinese, Qing is Korean.

Even if he was not a Korean, his last name impling "love and never forget shilla" is enough to conclude that he was influyenced by Shilla and therefore Qing had no culture, and therefore it is Korean (according to chinese ideology that because Korea has no cluture it is theirs).

4.  Ditto of 1.  From ���� (History of Jin), section ��� (someone from manchuria sent his translation to someone which reached me)

������������� ��
the ancestor of Keum is named ����

����������
he's originally from Koryo

Ҵ�׿������
he is in his sixties (when he left Koryo)

���ͯ���֣�
His older brother, � ͯ ? , who is a very religious Budhist

׺���������� ��
refuses to leave Koryo with him.

�أ����������������������, ��������奡�
The brother says, our offspring will need a place where they can all return and meet together, I can't leave.

Լ������������
So (the ancestor of Keum) came (to Manchuria) with another younger brother only, whose name is �� �� ��.

�������?ݻ���������
The ancestor of Keum moves in a place called ��?, which is near a river called ���.

I read all the post 17 pages, so tired, but I found a really big mistake for Koreans.

Chinese ethnic minority Kingdom does not mean they are Chinese, also  Chinese ethnic minority does not mean they have to be "Han" also, they can be any nations. In China Koreans also call themself as Chinese, even they are not "Han" .

basicly, what I am saying is China is a big country, there is many nations in it, does not must be "Han" people. Also the defination of "Han" people is about people who lives in China, it is nothing about nations problem. Huns went south and they become Chinese does that means they become the same with "Han" people?

From my side, I am so confused, because I am Korean-Chinese, also part of Manchurian. So I am in the middle of everything, lol.

From my point, Goguri should count as a independent nation in history, but Chinese and Korean also can say it is ancient ethnic minority of China and Korea. I think Goguri is like Huns in the history and now, Hugarians were keep some traditions from Huns, but we can not say Hun is part of Hungarian history, better to say is a ethnic minority lived in this land. Same with Goguri, they are different from China and Korea, so let's just leave this problem away. From different perspective we will get different answer.   

again, I wound say in Chinese perspective Goguri is a kingdom besidees mainland China.

all the world consider Goguri is in Korean history, Chinese also. So what? does that means Goguri have any relative with Modern Koreans?(except for some tradition, but you see, Koreans also keep some Chinese traditions also, so Chinese have to be Korean?)

I read a story, that when Tang captured Goguri, They removed all the Goguri people into Chinese villiage, I think Manchurians should be part of Goguri but Goguri have nothing to do with modern Korea.

Like what you said, Alexander's conquest conquered Persian empire, then they actually became a Asian empire. only because Alexander die too quick so we can not prove it. but look for why happen to Seleucid you will find out.

Again, Goguri are also have nothing to do with China, they should be a nation that disspeared in history for 1000 years already. Even Korea or China put into their history, but still can't prove Goguri is Korean or Goguri are Chinese. They are disspeared already. so why should we argue about that? I knows the reason is the Korean nationalism is rising. When I was live in Manchuria many people come from South Korea wrote words on their shirt to say give Manchu to Korea, so I think this is what we argueing about, the land.

OMG...I wonder who revived the thread while I was gone

Nope, If you are going like what the chinese government is claiming. 

Not all. First of all, 20,000 of them moved to capital of Shilla. 

Second of all, all those on northern China moved into Manchuria back to create Barhe.  You know it as Bohei.  And what did they tell the japanese when they wanted to open trade?  What happened when Khitans swept over Barhe?  They immigrated to Koryo.

Third of all, Koguryo in Chinese text are under section: foreign(East section to be concise).  However, it's so ironic for you to see that all Korean sources have Koguryo mentioned(samguksagi, samgukyusa, handangogi etc)?  So, what's up?

That's strange(about the korean coming to manchuria thing).

1. Chinese officials restrict all media from visiting ancient sites.  I can post pictures if you want to see them.  I don't see any point of them actually going there- to get rejected anyway -.-  And I don't remember any actual expeditions going on -.-???  Are you sure that happened? 

2.  The issue is more than just historical claim- and chinese land.  More about North Korea.

3.  Chinese nationalism is also in rise.  See what's going on?  Chinese scuds all aiming at taiwan?

4.  Koguryo has got to do with Korea.  See this koguryo mural?

Look at the bow the dude is carrying.  Hmmm...ring any bells?

Still no?  And have you seen any Chinese depictions of such?

except for some tradition, but you see, Koreans also keep some Chinese traditions also, so Chinese have to be Korean?)

Unfair example.  So the World belongs to Greece(democracy)?  World belongs to USA(Macdonalds)?  World belongs to China(chinese food)? 

First at all, you have to know, When Goguri was destroyed Korean just become a unified nation. That means  before the 3 kingdom period they do not call them as Korean, they do not think 3 part were a unified nation. It is same with Chinese worrior state period. People do not have the ID of a unified nation before Chin dominate China. After Chin dominate China Chinese thinks they are a unified nation. Same thing happen to Korea, from my point, Goguri should be a independent nation, I did not consider them as Korean or Chinese, because their culture is already gone.(Korean may have some, but not the mainly culture).

There is no such country named "Chaoxian" in Tang dynasty. And Chinese do not call Korea as Goguri, It is Gaoli, the Korean dynasty.

lol, your Xangga is really cool, really.

and read this post, you will find out why we still have to discuss about Goguri.

http://www.phoenixtv.com.cn/home/phoenixweekly/135/36page.ht ml