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Goguri, Korean or Chinese?

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  Quote demon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Goguri, Korean or Chinese?
    Posted: 09-Sep-2004 at 05:23

This is it. 

Goguri, Korean or Chinese?

Here is the schedules and plans for the discussion:

Day 1: Post your statements with backup only.  It will be updated below.  No discussions.

Day 2~: Discussion(NOW)

The purpose of this is to make you think rationally about someone else's opinion before you leap into discussion.  I hope you enjoy the discussion!

----here are the reasons for each one's claims.  I will update this place as much as I can---

Key:

Blue: Sides

Red: Start of topic for claim

Black: Thesis/ reasoning behind

------------------------------------------------------------ ----

 

Argument 1: Koguryo(Goguri) is Korean

1. If Goguri is Chinese, then the history of Pekjae is Chinese as well, because the founder of Pekjae is the son of Goguri (just as China is claiming Old Choson to be theirs because according to them, Chinese people went there and build it and therefore it is chinese).  But, ironically, the Chinese is not claiming Pekjae as theirs.  It implies another hidden reasoning behind this claim.  They want secured ownership of Manchuria.  AND GANDO, WHICH MUST BE KOREAN.  They are running out of reasons and thus is claiming Goguri as theirs in hopes of changing the claim to their favor.

2 If Goguri is Chinese (because it was founded by Chinese, old Choson which Goguri descends is also found by Chinese), then Jin must be Korean.  Here are excerpts from , the history book of Jin (a Chinese webiste with the original excerpts (check the second paragraph): http://www.zs2002.com/book/jins/001.htm :

The founder of Jin is Hambo(Agolta)

ΣҴ׿

He was 60 years old when he came out of Kori(Koryo) for the first time

֣ͯ׺

His brother Agohobol did not follow him and stayed in Kori

---what is that telling?

---------if he came out of Kori for the first time when he founded Jin Dynasty...

----------------------and if Kori was decendant of Shilla, a Korean country,

--------------------------------Wouldn't not Jin be Korean according to Chinese..?

(btw, the decendants of May Teja, the last king of Shilla, claims that Agolta is one of his son.  The Son of Shilla Ruled Jin and therefore Jin is Korean according to Chinese!)

3.  If Goguri is Chinese because its creator was from China and old Choson which Goguri follows also started with Chinese according to Chinese, in addition to all these "influences" and Korea "not having a culture", then Qing is Korean

The last name of Nurhaci, the creator of Qing dynastly(), had the last name of (Aishin Joure)

It means:"love and never forget Shilla" 

Aishin means gold(), but used Chinese letters to aid pronounciation

Jirio means bond/affinity/relationship()

Relationship with gold...but what is that gold?

It all ends up in either Jin Dynasty or the last name of Shilla Kings, Kyongju Kim()

------if 1, Jin Dynasty-----

Because the last name originated from Jin Dynasty, meaning love and never forget Jin Dynasty, we get this conflict.  If they envied Jin so much, it implies that jin influenced them a lot.  Meaning, Qing adapted its tradition from Jin and thus does not have culture (Chinese analogy of Korea not having culture).  Since China claims that because of that reason Goguri is theirs, would not that mean beause of that Qing is Jin therefore it is Korean..........?

------if 2, Kyongju Kim()-----

Love and never forget Shilla....Nurhaci was born in Manchu, along the borderlines of Pekdu montain.  Koreans live there.  So there is a chance he is Korean.  But then, he makes all thesee stuffs that amek him look as if he was a Korean.

The first example comes in imjin war.  As soon as the war erupted, Nurhaci =sent a letter to the king of Choson, asking to "send these barbarians out of  his motherland".  Because the King refused, he did not invervene.  But you see his intentions

The seconds example comes when Nurhaci revolts against Ming DynasttyDuring the surrender of sanjundo(߲Ԥ- the treaty officializing Korean "surrender" to Qing) Nurhaci asked Choson "we are in fact sons of kori(koryo) and therefore we are the same country.  You are the same East Tribe, why not join us and instead to Ming?

So Nurhaci was Korean  A korean who was rejected by his own country who nevertheless became the emperor of Qing.  And because the Chinese method implies that if the founder is Chinese then the country is Chinese, Qing is Korean.

Even if he was not a Korean, his last name impling "love and never forget shilla" is enough to conclude that he was influyenced by Shilla and therefore Qing had no culture, and therefore it is Korean (according to chinese ideology that because Korea has no cluture it is theirs).

4.  Ditto of 1.  From (History of Jin), section (someone from manchuria sent his translation to someone which reached me)


the ancestor of Keum is named

Σ
he's originally from Koryo

Ҵ׿
he is in his sixties (when he left Koryo)

֣ͯ
His older brother,
ͯ ? , who is a very religious Budhist

׺
refuses to leave Koryo with him.

أ,
The brother says, our offspring will need a place where they can all return and meet together, I can't leave.

Լ
So (the ancestor of Keum) came (to Manchuria) with another younger brother only, whose name is
.

?ݻ
The ancestor of Keum moves in a place called
?, which is near a river called .

Grrr..
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  Quote Gubook Janggoon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Sep-2004 at 12:38
no one seems to want to talk to you demon...
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  Quote demon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Sep-2004 at 19:18
Grrr..
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  Quote Evildoer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Sep-2004 at 19:19
I think they are all posting on other similar topics... after all there are whole bunch of them.
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  Quote hansioux Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jan-2005 at 17:50
Great post Demon!!!
Begging plea of the weak can only receive disrespect, violence and oppression as bestowments. Blood and sweat of the weak can only receive insult, blame and abuse as rewards.

Lai Ho, Formosan Poet
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  Quote ChineseManchurian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jan-2005 at 18:07

lol,Koreans make the topic always from the Korean side.

From Chinese side, they said Goguri are not Chinese, but also not Korean, because when Tang dynasty capture the land of Goguri, they removed all the people live in there to China as worker, so it has no relative with modern Korean. You can say Goguri is a group of people who live in between China and Korea, but they are not both of them.

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  Quote ChineseManchurian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jan-2005 at 18:14
little problem here, you said If Goguri are Chinese, than Jin must be Korean? I think you must make some mistakes on there
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  Quote Gubook Janggoon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jan-2005 at 19:41
Whoa...I havn't seen this thread in a long long long time.....

The idea that Jin (Jurchen) is Korean isn't wide spread, at least in the academic study of Korean history, so there really isn't a lot of people spreading that...

ChineseManchurian, if you're interested in this topic maybe you should check out this fiery thread:

http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=206&am p;am p;PN=2

The argument went a bit farther then this one did.

BTW China describes Koguryo as an Chinese ethnic minority Kingdom that took orders from the Tang and Sui courts.  You said that Koreans are the only ones to claim the kingdom, but doesn't the Chinese claim negate any of the "Not eitherness" of the Kingdom?


Edited by Gubukjanggoon
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  Quote ChineseManchurian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jan-2005 at 20:34

I read all the post 17 pages, so tired, but I found a really big mistake for Koreans.

Chinese ethnic minority Kingdom does not mean they are Chinese, also  Chinese ethnic minority does not mean they have to be "Han" also, they can be any nations. In China Koreans also call themself as Chinese, even they are not "Han" .

basicly, what I am saying is China is a big country, there is many nations in it, does not must be "Han" people. Also the defination of "Han" people is about people who lives in China, it is nothing about nations problem. Huns went south and they become Chinese does that means they become the same with "Han" people?

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  Quote Gubook Janggoon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jan-2005 at 20:39
Hmmm...Good point, but we went over this in the thread...at least I thought we did.  Indeed, Chinese doens't have to mean Han, it can mean 1 out of 56 different ethnic minorities.  These are all considered, "Chinese".  This is what we mean by China claiming Koguryo was Chinese, it's an ethnic minority, by no means Han, but Chinese.  It's the "Chinese" part that irks Koreans.  Not the "Han" part, no one ever claimed it was Han.

BTW, you read all 17 pages?!  Wow...that's a big feat...
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  Quote ChineseManchurian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jan-2005 at 20:53

From my side, I am so confused, because I am Korean-Chinese, also part of Manchurian. So I am in the middle of everything, lol.

From my point, Goguri should count as a independent nation in history, but Chinese and Korean also can say it is ancient ethnic minority of China and Korea. I think Goguri is like Huns in the history and now, Hugarians were keep some traditions from Huns, but we can not say Hun is part of Hungarian history, better to say is a ethnic minority lived in this land. Same with Goguri, they are different from China and Korea, so let's just leave this problem away. From different perspective we will get different answer.   

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  Quote Gubook Janggoon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jan-2005 at 22:54
I don't know why you want to leave this question alone...as long as we don't get all fiery and nationalistic it can get very interesting...it raises a few very nice questions...

Just a bit on what you said on ethnic minorities.  Koreans don't view Koguryo as an ethnic minority group.  The difference between China and Korea is that Korea is a homogenous nation.  There are no ethnic minorities.  Koguryo is viewed as one of the founding pillars of the Korean race, along with Baekje, and Shilla.  By claiming that Koguryo with Korea you would be taking a full third of the Korean identity away.  I think it's foolish to trace an ethnic groups lineage linearly.  Rather we must understand that we are all a hybrid of some sorts. 

Up till now, Koguryo has been considered a part of Korean history around the world, even in China.  It is generally accepted to be a "korean Kingdom".  What would make Koguryo a Chinese kingdom?  The main 2 reasons that I have heard are that most of Koguryo land is now in China and that some of Koguryo people assimilated into "Chinese" society.  The problem I find with these claims is that I find that they do not hold much sense.  Is Alexander the Great's kingdom considered to be Persian because most of it's land is now in Persian lands?  Is the history of Mexico considered a part of the history of the U.S.A. as many Mexicans were assimilated into U.S. culture when the U.S.A. aquired its southwestern territories from Mexico after the Mexican-American war?

*Note.  I'm not trying to start an argument here, rather a discussion.  I want to actually discuss this and not have it turn into nationalistic blather...


Edited by Gubukjanggoon
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  Quote ChineseManchurian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jan-2005 at 10:30

again, I wound say in Chinese perspective Goguri is a kingdom besidees mainland China.

all the world consider Goguri is in Korean history, Chinese also. So what? does that means Goguri have any relative with Modern Koreans?(except for some tradition, but you see, Koreans also keep some Chinese traditions also, so Chinese have to be Korean?)

I read a story, that when Tang captured Goguri, They removed all the Goguri people into Chinese villiage, I think Manchurians should be part of Goguri but Goguri have nothing to do with modern Korea.

Like what you said, Alexander's conquest conquered Persian empire, then they actually became a Asian empire. only because Alexander die too quick so we can not prove it. but look for why happen to Seleucid you will find out.

Again, Goguri are also have nothing to do with China, they should be a nation that disspeared in history for 1000 years already. Even Korea or China put into their history, but still can't prove Goguri is Korean or Goguri are Chinese. They are disspeared already. so why should we argue about that? I knows the reason is the Korean nationalism is rising. When I was live in Manchuria many people come from South Korea wrote words on their shirt to say give Manchu to Korea, so I think this is what we argueing about, the land.

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  Quote Gubook Janggoon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jan-2005 at 18:07
Hmm...well I'm not arguing about land...other people are.  So a people who weren't Chinese but weren't Korean either.  I see.  Well you see here's how it's seen in Korea.  It's thought that Buyeo claimed that it was from Gojoseon (The first "korean" kingdom) and from Buyeo it is thought that Koguryo and Baekje were born, Baekje being more of a mix of the Samhan and Buyeo peoples.  Even when China captured the Koguryo king, they put him in charge of the area as the "king of Chao Xian".  So by taking away Koguryo you are basically taking away all those other kingdoms in Korean history.  If you take one block out of a block tower the entire thing will collapse.

So why are Koreans being so nationalistic about this?  Up till now Koguryo was pretty synanomous with Korea and not at all with China.  Now China is pushing Koguryo as part of it's proper history.  What are the 3 options facing Koreans then?

1.  Let China take it.
2.  Share it.
3.   Fight for it.

If you were Koreans which option would you take?  This would be like asking Americans to give up their claim on the signing of the declaration of Independence to Britain. 

BTW thanks for visiting my xanga...two of my friends recently broke up, they were going out, and that kind of killed all of the chatter boxes....
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  Quote demon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jan-2005 at 18:50

OMG...I wonder who revived the thread while I was gone

little problem here, you said If Goguri are Chinese, than Jin must be Korean? I think you must make some mistakes on there

Nope, If you are going like what the chinese government is claiming. 

I read a story, that when Tang captured Goguri, They removed all the Goguri people into Chinese villiage, I think Manchurians should be part of Goguri but Goguri have nothing to do with modern Korea.

Not all. First of all, 20,000 of them moved to capital of Shilla. 

Second of all, all those on northern China moved into Manchuria back to create Barhe.  You know it as Bohei.  And what did they tell the japanese when they wanted to open trade?  What happened when Khitans swept over Barhe?  They immigrated to Koryo.

Third of all, Koguryo in Chinese text are under section: foreign(East section to be concise).  However, it's so ironic for you to see that all Korean sources have Koguryo mentioned(samguksagi, samgukyusa, handangogi etc)?  So, what's up?

Again, Goguri are also have nothing to do with China, they should be a nation that disspeared in history for 1000 years already. Even Korea or China put into their history, but still can't prove Goguri is Korean or Goguri are Chinese. They are disspeared already. so why should we argue about that? I knows the reason is the Korean nationalism is rising. When I was live in Manchuria many people come from South Korea wrote words on their shirt to say give Manchu to Korea, so I think this is what we argueing about, the land.

That's strange(about the korean coming to manchuria thing).

1. Chinese officials restrict all media from visiting ancient sites.  I can post pictures if you want to see them.  I don't see any point of them actually going there- to get rejected anyway -.-  And I don't remember any actual expeditions going on -.-???  Are you sure that happened? 

2.  The issue is more than just historical claim- and chinese land.  More about North Korea.

3.  Chinese nationalism is also in rise.  See what's going on?  Chinese scuds all aiming at taiwan?

4.  Koguryo has got to do with Korea.  See this koguryo mural?

 

Look at the bow the dude is carrying.  Hmmm...ring any bells?

Still no?  And have you seen any Chinese depictions of such?

except for some tradition, but you see, Koreans also keep some Chinese traditions also, so Chinese have to be Korean?)

Unfair example.  So the World belongs to Greece(democracy)?  World belongs to USA(Macdonalds)?  World belongs to China(chinese food)? 

 

 

 

Grrr..
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  Quote Gubook Janggoon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jan-2005 at 19:12
Bad Post


Edited by Gubukjanggoon
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  Quote ChineseManchurian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jan-2005 at 22:48

Originally posted by Gubukjanggoon

Hmm...well I'm not arguing about land...other people are.  So a people who weren't Chinese but weren't Korean either.  I see.  Well you see here's how it's seen in Korea.  It's thought that Buyeo claimed that it was from Gojoseon (The first "korean" kingdom) and from Buyeo it is thought that Koguryo and Baekje were born, Baekje being more of a mix of the Samhan and Buyeo peoples.  Even when China captured the Koguryo king, they put him in charge of the area as the "king of Chao Xian".  So by taking away Koguryo you are basically taking away all those other kingdoms in Korean history.  If you take one block out of a block tower the entire thing will collapse.

So why are Koreans being so nationalistic about this?  Up till now Koguryo was pretty synanomous with Korea and not at all with China.  Now China is pushing Koguryo as part of it's proper history.  What are the 3 options facing Koreans then?

1.  Let China take it.
2.  Share it.
3.   Fight for it.

If you were Koreans which option would you take?  This would be like asking Americans to give up their claim on the signing of the declaration of Independence to Britain. 

BTW thanks for visiting my xanga...two of my friends recently broke up, they were going out, and that kind of killed all of the chatter boxes....

First at all, you have to know, When Goguri was destroyed Korean just become a unified nation. That means  before the 3 kingdom period they do not call them as Korean, they do not think 3 part were a unified nation. It is same with Chinese worrior state period. People do not have the ID of a unified nation before Chin dominate China. After Chin dominate China Chinese thinks they are a unified nation. Same thing happen to Korea, from my point, Goguri should be a independent nation, I did not consider them as Korean or Chinese, because their culture is already gone.(Korean may have some, but not the mainly culture).

There is no such country named "Chaoxian" in Tang dynasty. And Chinese do not call Korea as Goguri, It is Gaoli, the Korean dynasty.

lol, your Xangga is really cool, really.

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  Quote ChineseManchurian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jan-2005 at 23:01
Originally posted by demon

OMG...I wonder who revived the thread while I was gone

little problem here, you said If Goguri are Chinese, than Jin must be Korean? I think you must make some mistakes on there

Nope, If you are going like what the chinese government is claiming. 

I read a story, that when Tang captured Goguri, They removed all the Goguri people into Chinese villiage, I think Manchurians should be part of Goguri but Goguri have nothing to do with modern Korea.

Not all. First of all, 20,000 of them moved to capital of Shilla. 

Second of all, all those on northern China moved into Manchuria back to create Barhe.  You know it as Bohei.  And what did they tell the japanese when they wanted to open trade?  What happened when Khitans swept over Barhe?  They immigrated to Koryo.

Third of all, Koguryo in Chinese text are under section: foreign(East section to be concise).  However, it's so ironic for you to see that all Korean sources have Koguryo mentioned(samguksagi, samgukyusa, handangogi etc)?  So, what's up?

Again, Goguri are also have nothing to do with China, they should be a nation that disspeared in history for 1000 years already. Even Korea or China put into their history, but still can't prove Goguri is Korean or Goguri are Chinese. They are disspeared already. so why should we argue about that? I knows the reason is the Korean nationalism is rising. When I was live in Manchuria many people come from South Korea wrote words on their shirt to say give Manchu to Korea, so I think this is what we argueing about, the land.

That's strange(about the korean coming to manchuria thing).

1. Chinese officials restrict all media from visiting ancient sites.  I can post pictures if you want to see them.  I don't see any point of them actually going there- to get rejected anyway -.-  And I don't remember any actual expeditions going on -.-???  Are you sure that happened? 

2.  The issue is more than just historical claim- and chinese land.  More about North Korea.

3.  Chinese nationalism is also in rise.  See what's going on?  Chinese scuds all aiming at taiwan?

4.  Koguryo has got to do with Korea.  See this koguryo mural?

 

Look at the bow the dude is carrying.  Hmmm...ring any bells?

Still no?  And have you seen any Chinese depictions of such?

except for some tradition, but you see, Koreans also keep some Chinese traditions also, so Chinese have to be Korean?)

Unfair example.  So the World belongs to Greece(democracy)?  World belongs to USA(Macdonalds)?  World belongs to China(chinese food)? 

 

 

 

lol, I think Korean government got some translation problem or understanding problem. In Chinese, government said that Goguri is a "йŴ߽ϵ", I am not very sure can you really understand Chinese now.

And please remember, Tang taken over Nothern include Pingyang, and some of them were move to the south, but mostly become the new citizens of Silla. like some Carthagians survived in third Punic war, they are slaved, then the culture of Carthage just end it there, you understand what i mean? some may survived but most people forget about there tradition become part of Chinese(and a few of Koreans now).

And Goguri is more like Koreans, but it also have some Chinese culture in it, when China is in three kingdom period, Goguri was trade with "Gongshun" family in the south of Manchuria. They got cultures from Han dynasty and Jin dynasty.

OK, if you think China is aiming Taiwan, then ask Why president Lincoln take over the South.

 

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  Quote ChineseManchurian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jan-2005 at 23:04

and read this post, you will find out why we still have to discuss about Goguri.

http://www.phoenixtv.com.cn/home/phoenixweekly/135/36page.ht ml

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  Quote Gubook Janggoon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jan-2005 at 21:25
Originally posted by ChineseManchurian


First at all, you have to know, When Goguri was destroyed Korean just become a unified nation. That means  before the 3 kingdom period they do not call them as Korean, they do not think 3 part were a unified nation. It is same with Chinese worrior state period. People do not have the ID of a unified nation before Chin dominate China. After Chin dominate China Chinese thinks they are a unified nation. Same thing happen to Korea, from my point, Goguri should be a independent nation, I did not consider them as Korean or Chinese, because their culture is already gone.(Korean may have some, but not the mainly culture).

There is no such country named "Chaoxian" in Tang dynasty. And Chinese do not call Korea as Goguri, It is Gaoli, the Korean dynasty.

lol, your Xangga is really cool, really.



There was a unified state before koguryo, go-joseon, which the chinese referred to as Chao xian.  It existed during the Han dynasty.  When Tang took over Koguryo they took it's king and made him regent of that area with the title, "King of Chao Xian". 

Also Can't read that site you gave us.  Perhaps you could summarize it?

BTW Glad you like my xanga!  Do you have one?


Edited by Gubukjanggoon
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