Author |
Share Topic Topic Search Topic Options
|
Guests
Guest
|
Quote Reply
Topic: Khazar Posted: 17-Sep-2004 at 04:53 |
I thought the Steppesand Central Asia topic needs a little help,
I wanted to know where the Khazar come from , which people do they belong to and what did they do? , I have little knowledge about them , but I thought that we could discuss about it ?
|
|
JanusRook
Sultan
Ad Maiorem Dei Gloriam
Joined: 03-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2419
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 17-Sep-2004 at 15:02 |
I have been interested in the Khazars ever since I heard about them.
How much info do you know about them?
http://www.khazaria.com/khazar-history.html
Oh and a map because I love maps:
|
Economic Communist, Political Progressive, Social Conservative.
Unless otherwise noted source is wiki.
|
|
Kubrat
Consul
Joined: 28-Aug-2004
Location: Bulgaria
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 339
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 17-Sep-2004 at 17:24 |
Hmm, this map is early 10th century? I'm surprised it shows Volga
Bulgaria and not Danube Bulgaria. Volga Bulgaria is also about
150 years younger than Danube Bulgaria at this point too....
Back to Khazars, I don't remember seeing a map showing them as this big. Where did you get that map from?
Edit: Shouldn't this be in Midieval Europe forum?
Edited by Kubrat
|
Hell is empty and all the devils are here.
-William Shakespeare
|
|
JanusRook
Sultan
Ad Maiorem Dei Gloriam
Joined: 03-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2419
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 18-Sep-2004 at 03:18 |
Back to Khazars, I don't remember seeing a map showing them as this big. Where did you get that map from?
|
The website I've listed. I think that the map is right tho', the Khazar's did control a lot of territory.
Edit: Shouldn't this be in Midieval Europe forum?
|
Maybe but I think the Khazar's are peoples of the steppes.
|
Economic Communist, Political Progressive, Social Conservative.
Unless otherwise noted source is wiki.
|
|
Evildoer
Baron
Joined: 25-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 434
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 18-Sep-2004 at 14:27 |
There are quite credible theories that a majority of Modern Jews (Askhenazim, the Eastern European ones especially) are actually no "Israelis" but actually the Khazars who were converted to Judaism.
|
|
Kubrat
Consul
Joined: 28-Aug-2004
Location: Bulgaria
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 339
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 18-Sep-2004 at 22:27 |
That would make sense...
When did Khazaria break up again? I remember seeing something
somewhere that Volga Bulgaria had a huge growth spurt right in the 11th
or 12th century.
|
Hell is empty and all the devils are here.
-William Shakespeare
|
|
JanusRook
Sultan
Ad Maiorem Dei Gloriam
Joined: 03-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2419
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 19-Sep-2004 at 13:34 |
I believe Khazaria broke up right before the mongols invaded russia, I think they were destroyed by the Russians, who right after that growth spurt were beat down by the mongols.
|
Economic Communist, Political Progressive, Social Conservative.
Unless otherwise noted source is wiki.
|
|
Kubrat
Consul
Joined: 28-Aug-2004
Location: Bulgaria
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 339
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 19-Sep-2004 at 14:13 |
I remember reading that many Volga Bulgarians fled westward into Kievan
Rus to save themselves from the mongols and they helped the Rus defend
themselves from the mongols, but they obviously failed...
|
Hell is empty and all the devils are here.
-William Shakespeare
|
|
Temujin
King
Sirdar Bahadur
Joined: 02-Aug-2004
Location: Eurasia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5221
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 19-Sep-2004 at 14:14 |
no, they were defeated by the Russians at the end of the 10th century, before the Mongol invasions there were the Pechenegs and Kypchaks in the Pontic Steppe.
|
|
Evildoer
Baron
Joined: 25-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 434
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 19-Sep-2004 at 14:15 |
No, actually they were conquered first by Arabs. They likely remained on the land till Mongols ran them down, when they moved to East European countries like Poland and Hungary. That is why there is a plausible theory that most Ashkenazhim are actually Khazarian Turks... I believe it.
|
|
Kubrat
Consul
Joined: 28-Aug-2004
Location: Bulgaria
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 339
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 19-Sep-2004 at 14:29 |
Fall of Khazaria map (that's what they call it at their site):
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Sparta/3976/
|
Hell is empty and all the devils are here.
-William Shakespeare
|
|
Evildoer
Baron
Joined: 25-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 434
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 19-Sep-2004 at 17:23 |
Interesting. Thanks for the map. By the way, isn't Khazaria bascially the area around modern Chechenya?
Edited by Evildoer
|
|
Temujin
King
Sirdar Bahadur
Joined: 02-Aug-2004
Location: Eurasia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5221
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 19-Sep-2004 at 17:24 |
Originally posted by Evildoer
No, actually they were conquered first by Arabs. They likely remained on the land till Mongols ran them down, when they moved to East European countries like Poland and Hungary. That is why there is a plausible theory that most Ashkenazhim are actually Khazarian Turks... I believe it. |
well I was talking about the Khaganate, not the people...
|
|
ihsan
General
Retired AE Moderator
Joined: 06-Aug-2004
Location: Turkey
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 831
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 20-Sep-2004 at 05:52 |
Chinese sources refer to them as "Hesa Tujue", indicating that they were either a tribe within the Tujue people or they were closely related, similar to the Qarluqs (Geluolu Tujue in Chinese).
The Arabs briefly captured their capital but the Khazars re-gained their independence and moved their capital northwards (the qaghan of Khazars promised to the conqueror Arabs that he would convert to Islam but when the Arabs left, he returned to his old religion). They were destroyed by the Kievan Rus in the 10th century.
And yes, at their peak, they ruled a vast area.
|
|
|
maersk
Knight
Joined: 04-Sep-2004
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 85
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 30-Sep-2004 at 21:26 |
i thought the khazars where descended from a portion of the gok turks that moved into the caucasus
|
"behold, vajik, khan of the magyars, scourge of the pannonian plain!"
|
|
Kubrat
Consul
Joined: 28-Aug-2004
Location: Bulgaria
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 339
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 03-Oct-2004 at 10:35 |
Well, as for the Chechnya question, Khazaria was way bigger than Chechnya even when it was smallest.
|
Hell is empty and all the devils are here.
-William Shakespeare
|
|
Sogdian
Immortal Guard
Joined: 14-Dec-2005
Location: Mongolia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 0
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 14-Dec-2005 at 11:33 |
Is the exact site of Itil (or any other major Khazar town) known? I heard it is, but that it's been flooded by construction of an artificial lake. Does anyone have info on this?
|
|
Temujin
King
Sirdar Bahadur
Joined: 02-Aug-2004
Location: Eurasia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5221
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 14-Dec-2005 at 15:57 |
Itil is Atil on both maps above....
|
|
Maju
King
Joined: 14-Jul-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6565
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 15-Dec-2005 at 04:19 |
But the exact site is not know. Atil has yet to be found.
|
NO GOD, NO MASTER!
|
|
Guests
Guest
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 19-Mar-2006 at 23:11 |
Well, a lot of confusion...
1. Khazars were a Turkic tribe, Their upper stratum of the Bulghar Kingdom did convert to Judaism sometimes in the 8-9 century. The kingdom was destroyed by the Russians around 10 century. The remnants went west as Bulgars, east as Balkarians (Kabardino-Balkarian Autonomous Republic in Russia) or even down south (Derbent still has large numbers of Tats, ie Mountain Jews). Kiev, "The Mother of Russian Cities" was established by Khazars (in the Tat language, Ki-ev means "river town", from Dniepr).
2. No, Khazars have nothing to do with Ashkenazi Jews: those came from the West: Germany, Spain etc. Modern population genetic studies find high degree of homogeneity between Jews from all over Europe as well as from Iraq, Persia and North African countries and nothing in common with Turkic tribes.
3. Armenians, on the other hand, are genetically highly connected with Jews. In 586 BC, after the First Temple was destroyed, Babylonians exiled a lot of Jews to what now is Armenia. They stayed there for almost 1000 years and intermarried with the locals. Their leader was Smbat (strange name for the Jew, but that is straight from the ancient Armenian chronicles stored in Echmiadzin) who became a founder of the Armenian(later, Georgian) royal dynasty of Bagratids. Originally, his name was written as "Bivritioni", ie, "The Hebrew", later transliterated as "Bagrationi". When in the 4th century Armenia mass-converted to Christianity, all who refused were ordered to leave. The unconverted Jews went to the neighbouring Georgia and stayed there until 1970-1980s, when almost all left to Israel.
The Armenians are the only non-Jewish people who also have the so-called Familial Mediterranean Fever, a hereditary disease akin to amyloidosis.
|
|