Gaya and Koguryo (goguri)

can you tell me some aspects of China today that are of Koguryo?

do you think the prisoners of war that were forced to move into China got around to make babies and mix their blood in that much?

do you really think the Manchu people can still be said to have Koguryo blood?

Originally posted by demon So: Koguri is mine.  We decend their blood.  Therefore yield your land to me. Che Young: Koguri might be yours, but it is also ours.  That is why we named our country Kori to "symbolize" our transition from Koguri to Kori.  We have also moved our capital to Pyongyang to resemble its tradition.  You malgal people have served well under the leadership of Koguri.  Well, serve as a servant this time also as a servant should. *by this time, So was so enriched that he left Kori and gave 40 camels and hundreds of horses as a present.  Peace was made for about a decade* --------------

Was the Kitan here represented Liao Dynasty? I must check the History of Liao...

Hey I/eye,

    I don't pretend to be a more skillful debater, but I have a few advices for you.  Don't use "bloodline" as an argument, as it would most certainly fail (for the simple reason that it is impossible to present proofs of genealogies here.)  You're playing Hannibal's game here, and it'll just take the debate in circles.  The best reason that Koguryo should remain a Korean heritage is convention.  By this I don't mean that Koreans inherited Koguryo culture and no one did; by this I mean that conventionally we've recognized Koguryo as Korean.  Many Chinese are aware that "Gao li" and "Gao ge li" refer to Korea.  It makes no sense to change that convention, even if that convention has little basis to begin with -- because the change of this convention can have only as much a ground as the convention itself.

Peace,

Michael

9-6-2004

 GaoGouLi was a very complicated period in our history.More information must be introduced to all the people who interested in it.I told you several days ago in this forum that I will establish a website about GaoGouLi next year. I will present our evidences as detailed as possible through the website,and our viewpiont will be systematic then.Now I have to finish my role under this topic thread,for I have too many things to do now.

I collected some of my points I have posted here.

(1)
In fact, before Goguri was founded as a kingdom in the northeastern territory  Xuan Tu Prefecture of Han Dynasty��it was a tribe under the domination of local Han official for a long time. At that time, the Chosun Peninsula can be divided into two part, the north of it is Han Le Lang Prefecture, ancestors of modern Korean people lived in the southern part of the peninsula, they are three native tribes MaHan��ChenHan and PianHan.

Beofre Han Dynasty,there was a Kingdom named Old Chosun.

The founder of Old Chosun was Ji Zi who immigrated to there from Yin Dynasty,  After Ji's Chosun,there was Wei's Chosun.Wei Man was a person from Yan(a kingdom of Warring Stats China),he drove the King out of the old Chosun and declared King himself.This old Chosun had nothing to do with Goguryo and Kori appeared later.

Of course,the temple of JiZi was destroyed by the Government of North Korea many years ago,but the history was still there and we all know that.

(2)The Kingdom named Kori by Wangjian was  based on former Silla. We all know that Silla was the Kingdom who allied itself with Tang dynasty to defeat Koguryo.To say Kori was Koguryo was rather ridiculous.

Exactly,only  a part of Wanggun's people followed Koguri blood.No one can deny the fact,there were records about this. I know there were people fleeing into Kori at that times,but just think, Manchu of China took the people of Balhe as a their ancestors too. So,a great majority of Balhe's people stayed there and never moved to Chosun. Otherwise,Qing Dynasty will not appear in ther history of China.

Most probably,the majority people of Kori were  Silla people. We can not count them as goguri people,for silla and goguri were dead enemy in three kingdom periods for several hundred years.

 

(3)
About the false records in Chinese historical books on Kori since Song Dynasty,here I give you my point:

  After the collapse of Tang Dynasty,China fell into fragmentation again and warlords all setted up a separatist regime by force of arms.

  That's a time of war. In ancient warring times, there were no paparazzo,no Tv stations,no magazines,no news papers, How can the historians of China Knew what happened in Chosun peninsula when another Kori appeared.

  When Song Dynasty established in 960 AD.,  another Kingdom named Kori was  there for twenty-five years.In order to unite  China,the Emperor of Song costed several decades since then. When China in peace again,there even no one in China knew what was the difference between this Kori and the former Koguryo.

  That's why in the historical books of China left only false records in differentiating Koguryo from Kori since Song Dynasty.

(4)
In ancient times'.If you think Goguryo was more just in the war,then,you made mistake. China was a big country,Goguryo was a small country,but both of them had the same ambition.Then accepted their fate,i.e. weaker country defeated by stronger country.

I read whole Goguri's history of war. It's Goguri's policy led to Sui's invasion,Goguryo supported Sui's enemy in all time ... I do not mean Sui was right,but Goguri was not the right side in the war too.

As an ancient country, Goguri's stratagem was expanded its' territory in northeastern part of China after it was founded during the first four hundred years.   If Goguri defeated China, it also could be the country to establish a Central Empire.  Just as many minority regimes did in the history of China. As ancient China had vast population, it's hard for the people of Goguri to avoid being naturalized after they ruled China.  Such cases can be found a dozen in the history of China.The nearest one is Qing Dynasty which founded by Manchu.

Edited by hannibal

MengTzu:

I'm not using bloodline as argument. hannibal is, and it's just that his claim can be defeated even with his own argument..

notice that he did not reply to my questions, but instead he said some nonsense about China being a victim, having revenge, accept their fate, "my friend told me so" blablabla

I will present our evidences as detailed as possible through the website,and our viewpiont will be systematic then

and you have gathered so many viewpoints here..

Korean nationalist, regular, idealist, and Chinese nationalist..

In fact, before Goguri was founded as a kingdom in the northeastern territory  Xuan Tu Prefecture of Han Dynasty��it was a tribe under the domination of local Han official for a long time. At that time, the Chosun Peninsula can be divided into two part, the north of it is Han Le Lang Prefecture, ancestors of modern Korean people lived in the southern part of the peninsula, they are three native tribes MaHan��ChenHan and PianHan.

3 of 4 Han commandaries fell or moved out 30 years after their founding.
Xuan Tu in particular was moved out to Laio Dung in 75 b.c.
Koguryo was founded in the old region in 37 b.c.

The founder of Old Chosun was Ji Zi who immigrated to there from Yin Dynasty,  After Ji's Chosun,there was Wei's Chosun.Wei Man was a person from Yan(a kingdom of Warring Stats China),he drove the King out of the old Chosun and declared King himself

before Gi Za there was Dangun Chosun. and Gi Za coming to Chosun is actually in dispute, and Wi Man was said to dress like Chosun people.

not that who the leader is means anything..

This old Chosun had nothing to do with Goguryo and Kori appeared later.

the tribe that will form Koguryo later was under the rule of Chosun.

The Kingdom named Kori by Wangjian was  based on former Silla. We all know that Silla was the Kingdom who allied itself with Tang dynasty to defeat Koguryo.To say Kori was Koguryo was rather ridiculous.

Koryo was based on northern silla, where it used to be Koguryo.
Silla defeated Koguryo. Koryo defeated Silla.
Koryo is not Koguryo, but a successor.

Exactly,only  a part of Wanggun's people followed Koguri blood.No one can deny the fact,there were records about this. I know there were people fleeing into Kori at that times,but just think, Manchu of China took the people of Balhe as a their ancestors too. So,a great majority of Balhe's people stayed there and never moved to Chosun. Otherwise,Qing Dynasty will not appear in ther history of China.

Manchus might have had some Koguryo blood in them, but they wouldn't have identified themselves as of Koguryo. people who went to Koryo actually saw themselves as Koguryo people.

Most probably,the majority people of Kori were  Silla people. We can not count them as goguri people,for silla and goguri were dead enemy in three kingdom periods for several hundred years.

Silla and Koguryo were enemies for 200 years only. before 433, Koguryo was actually protecting Silla.
and later, to fight Tang, Silla opened up to Koguryo people

(3)blablabla...Song can't tell difference between Koguryo and Koryo

are you saying the Chinese historians were so stupid as to not b able to tell between the Koguryo that fell at (mostly) Chinese hands, and Koryo, with which Song was friendly with, opening up trade, exchanging students and allying vs. Liao?

(4)some nonsense about being just in war, and a what if involving Koguryo conquering China

you can't really argue who was right ot wrong in ancient wars, and no one knows about the what would have happened.. what's important is what actually happened. and what actually happened was that Koguryo never claimed succession to any Chinese dynasties, never naturalized to Chinese ways, and in fact, saw themselves as in a totally separate world(view of world under sky) from the Chinese world.

GaoGouLi(37BC-668AD) was a kingdom founded in northern frontier of Han Dynasty by an ethnic minority of China.

wrong. it should be "founded East of Han borders by YehMek Buyo people, a people of Old Chosun, and is partially ancestor to ethnic minority of China"

and since when is "my ancestors gave you a hat" an excuse to claim anything?

Edited by I/eye

This argument is going no where, people are claiming nations based on blood and ethnicities, a poor way of identification.

"before Gi Za there was Dangun Chosun. and Gi Za coming to Chosun is actually in dispute, and Wi Man was said to dress like Chosun people."

 

I still don't believe you actually think Tangun is real person, as much as Ji is disputed, its a far more accurate figure than tangun whose existence isn't even mentioned in primary sources of the time or centuries afterwards for that matter. His existence is as skeptical as that of the sage emperors since legend itself says that he existed during their time.

no, I do not think Tangun was one real person

Wow! look at how much fun you guys had while I was at school!

Okeedokee...let's get this endless crap started.

1.  "In fact, before Goguri was founded as a kingdom in the northeastern territory  Xuan Tu Prefecture of Han Dynasty"

We have already established the fact that 3 out of 4 han comanderies basicaly disappeared from the face of the earth soon after they were founded. 

2.  "The Kingdom named Kori by Wangjian was  based on former Silla. We all know that Silla was the Kingdom who allied itself with Tang dynasty to defeat Koguryo.To say Kori was Koguryo was rather ridiculous."

By the time of the 3 kingdoms of Koreo, although the nations were origionally from different stocks, the ethnic makeup was pretty much the same between the countries.  Also, Shilla defeated and destroyed Koguryo.  Yes this is true.  Look at China's history though.  During warring states periods, different Chinese countries are constantly destroying each other.  So would it be ridiculous to say that all those destroyed Chinese kingdoms were China's history?

3.  "About the false records in Chinese historical books on Kori since Song Dynasty,here I give you my point:>> "

Hannibal, you keep stating that ancient Chinese documents are false.  Are you proposing perhaps then that we rely simply on papers written by scientists backed by the PRC.  Don't you think that that would be a bit biased?  I think for the most part, we have to consider these ancient documents as true, we can't just conveniently erase them frome existance to fit our own needs.  Also, are you saying that the ancient Chinese history keeper people persons...were stupid?  China would have known the difference.  Just because Koryo sounds a bit like Koguryo doesn't meant that  Chinese scholars are stupid enough to make that mistake.  It seems that you are simply trying to rationalize a piece of evidence that obviously proves you wrong.

4.  "In ancient times'.If you think Goguryo was more just in the war,then,you made mistake. China was a big country,Goguryo was a small country,but both of them had the same ambition.Then accepted their fate,i.e. weaker country defeated by stronger country.>> "...".   If Goguri defeated China, it also could be the country to establish a Central Empire.  Just as many minority regimes did in the history of China. "

You are playing the "what if" game here.  It's not important about what might have happened.  It's important what happened.  If Koguryo conquered China and set up a Central Empire, than Koguryo would probably be considered a Chinese nation today, much like Yuan...but it didn't.  So this does not apply.  This is like saying, if the situation was different, RUssia might have conquered China, so therefore, all of Russian History is Chinese History. 

It's great that you finally gave us your point though. 

Also Hannibal I don't think you have answered one of my previous questions (someone correct me if he has)...
You state that Koguryo is a part of China because it borrowed and adpoted much culture of China.  But Korea, Japan, and Vietnam, and many other countries adopted Chinese culture and in effect became Sinicized.  Why doesn't this reasoning apply to other countries? 

BTW Demon...I didn't know I was a "cool" forumer...thx....




Edited by Gubukjanggoon