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Direct Link To This Post Topic: EUropean Championship 2008
    Posted: 22-Jun-2008 at 03:56
Originally posted by Seko

Congrats King Kang. Hiddink is a master at management. All of his teams seem to bare his trademark intensity.
 
Thanks Seko, it's not like I won somethingEmbarrassed but it feels the same, strange this game called football.
 
Master Management,  Yes, I heard many Hyundai, Samsung and LG executives and middle level managers are reading books on Hiddink and the Dutch management philosophy.   I'm serious.  People used to compare the Koreans as the Irish or the Italian of Asia for their history, culture, temperament or drinking habitCheers but there are many Koreans who wants to build Korea like they are the Dutch of Asia.  You know a small country, but gifted merchants and traders, also innovative and progressive, practical yet existentialistic......  You know how all the cool ones stayed home and all the cranky ones went to South Africa and the western part of Michigan......Big%20smile
 
If the Italians beat the Spanish tomorrow, Hiddink will have some special delivery ready for the Italians.
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2008 at 04:29
I must say the idea of seeing Putin rejoicing himself (with a quarter of a smile) with the winning team makes me puke and I have no admiration for the Russian defense. But their way of playing is just so good, I mean it is a real team first and foremost. No super-gifted striker ala Ronaldo, just good passes and wonderful finish, great football (forward at least). If I was God I'd cut the Russian team in too and give them the defense of Italy and Buffone.

Frankly I hope to see Italy - Russia and my two favorite ways of playing football: an iron defense v. an inspired team-playing offense. Actually Italy v Spain won't be too bad in that eather.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2008 at 07:21

Alright it's time for the Italy:Spain prediction.

The trend in the knockout stage games so far is that the teams performed well in the group stage(Netherlands, Portugal, Croatia) hasn't played well but the teams struggled in the group stage has performed well(Germany, Turkey, Russia).  So the trendy pick would be Italy.

And I must admit that Italy carries some Mojo into this game after France and Romania games.  But I think losing Pirlo and Gattuso will be too big for them, especially Pirlo.  Pirlo controls the tempo and creates chances for them especially when they are playing the possession game.  He also brings the threat from the long range.  I actually think he was the most important player for them in last WC and still.  De Rossi's gonna have to play like he's worth two Pirlos. 
 
I think Luca Toni might have his best game against not that physical Spanish defense.  Well, he's due, isn't he?  He's gonna have to.  Other than those two I don't know where goals can come from.  Maybe Del Piero or Grosso.  But I will say Luca Toni scores a goal and 50/50 on De Rossi.  If Italy wins De Rossi scores, if he doesn't they lose.
 
So obviously Spain needs to pound on De Rossi.  I will go with both Senna and Xabi Alonso to secure the central midfield.  I like Carzola but he's more possession game player.  I will go with Xavi and Iniesta and tell Iniesta to do one thing in the first half, run like hell.  This is not a deep Italian bench anymore, especially in the midfield.  I would even consider Sergio Garcia just for his speed. 
 
If Italy scores first and Spain is down a goal with 30 mins to go, then you bring in Carzola or Fabregas  for Xabi Alonso and Iniesta to comeback from behind.  Spain has many weapons to pick from but I'm feeling their midfielders.  I'm going with Barca boys, Xavi or Iniesta scores the winning goal.
 
2:1 Spain!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2008 at 07:21
In the spirit of the Dutch - German (football)enmity:
 
Congratulations to the Russian team and it's Manager Hiddink ( oh, a Dutch). The Dutch didn't play that style, they did in the previous matches against Italy and France. They looked like paralised and didn't find a recipe to keep up with the very fast reacting and running Russian squad.
 
Nistelroy's goal, shortly before the end of the regular time, was only a weak struggle and the Dutch were send home by a Russian team that fills out my expections as an insider tip.
 
Some of my colleagues laughed out, cause i said before the EC starts, that Russia is my second favourite shortly behind the germans. Now their laugh will find an end.
 
Although i think that Italy will go to the final, i would suppose that a final Germany - Russia would be an attractive fixture.
 
So to dare a look out for tonight, the Spanish team will be kicked out once again, like it happened so many times.
 
 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2008 at 08:07
Originally posted by King Kang of Mu

Originally posted by vulkan02

This Russian victory is a slap in the face to all the western capitalist teams where many Dutch players are "employed" (no offence to the nation) with the likes of Manchester United, robber baron owned Chelski etc. Putin lead the way! I really hope Russia wins it all now and they seem to have the team to go through with it.
 
Oh my......  You had to go there, didn't you Vulkan?  May I put it in not so Capitalist hating way? 
 
I think for some teams it helps them to have some of their best players playing in other richer leagues.  Teams like Spanish along with Italian, English and German, most of their best players play in their own domestic league partially because you get the most money in those leagues.  Of course there are exceptions but the biggest example would be Rafa Benitez and Liverpool having guys like Torres, Xabi Alonso, and Luis Garcia until he went back to La Liga.  And there is also Fabregas in Arsenal.  And Juande Ramos with Tottenham could be attracting more Spanish imports.  This is somewhat of change in trend for the Spanish national team.  Some of there key players now play in the league and the stylistic system that is different from traditional La Liga or the Spanish national team style and mentality.  I think this is s positive trend for the Spanish football in general though I doubt that we will see a flood of Spaniards playing in Bundesliga or Serie A.
 
The opposite case would be the English.  Most of their players play in EPL. Exceptions I can think of right now are Beckham in MLS, Owen Hargreaves when he was in Bayern Munich and Steve McManaman with Real Madrid.  I think this trend hurts the English.  Even if many top EPL clubs are mutinationality teams and they don't play typical 'English' style game especially Man U, Arsenal and Man City, but whenever those players wear that English jersey, they play the English way.  I'm not saying the English style is necessarily a worse style in comparison to the others.  But in a tournament like this where you face many different styles, it helps to have diverse styles of players.  It only gives you more tactical and matchup options. 
 
The French and the Dutch also other examples of their players playing in the elite clubs in the leagues that pays more than the French or the Dutch clubs.  Where they get their players first place is whole another story.  Although current Dutch squad has more home grown feel to them, they are no strangers dig up jewels in Africa or Surinam.   France is now even more extreme case of that.  The best French players don't play in France and most of them are not even 'French'.  But France has been successful at what they do though not in this tournament, and the Dutch still pump out some of the most talented players and some of most beautiful football to watch when they click.
 
Some Eastern European teams like Croatia, Romania and Czech Republic, also benefits from their elite players playing in Western Europe, especially in Germany and Italy.  But in these cases it's not so much of them learning different styles but having confidence that comes from going against the best players from the leagues in daily basis.  It's one thing to think that you can stop guys like Luca Toni or van Nistelrooy, it's whole another ball game if you've already stopped them in a league game before.
 
And then there are teams like Greece in 04 or Russia and Turkey.  Well, Turkey and Greece are in one category and maybe Russia is in another.  Turkey and Greece both have good enough domestic league and some of their elite player play in other leagues, Portugal may also fall into this group. But most of their players get developed and play at home and some of their top clubs are prestigious enough to retain some top players at home.  This makes them easier to practice and organize the national team compare to the Dutch or the French.  And it makes them easier to keep the closer eye on their developments and physical/playing condition all the time. 
 
And then there is Russia.  Not only this team is unknown but also they are the youngest.  For an influential manager like Hiddink this is the perfect team to teach the game to.  It's like the difference between coaching NBA or NCAA in basketball.  You don't have to deal with big egos, you don't have juggle with other clubs' schedules in foreign land and it takes lot less out of the players from traveling especially back and forth to Russia.  And these young players don't know any better.  They don't know any better that they are not supposed to beat these teams.  They don't know any better that Hiddink can't perform the same miracle with every team he takes over.  So they train like  boxers, work on speed, stamina and team work like foot work.  
 
Stamina is also a important factor here.  The bigger star, the  player is and bigger the club he plays for, odds are he played more competitive games, later into the season.  Not only it tires them by the time a summer big tournament come sround but also tired body gets injured easier.  Figo, Zidane, Rooney are good recent examples.  Football is first and the most the running game.  You don't stop running because whenever the ball or a knee hits the ground like NFL, you don't stop running because the network needs to go on a commercial break like NBA.  If you can't run for 90 mins straight, you can't win. 
 
And then there is the hunger factor.  If the Russians don't know better that they are not supposed to beat these teams, but they do know that some of the players they play against make in a month what they make in a life time.  What is the fastest way from where they are to where these elite players are at?  An international tournaments like this.  I'm not saying the Russians are playing their hearts out for the love of the game and the country.  But if Russia finishes even better in this cup or in South Africa, how many of them will end up in teams like Chelsea or Bayern Munich?   Also elite Russian teams themselves are 'capitalistic' teams.  CSKA Moskow has much Brazilian presence.  Zenit won UEFA Cup with another Dutch manager Advocaat.  And there is Hiddink.....  I'm not the biggest fan of the 'Western Capitalism' myself, but just because someone can not afford the best that 'Western Capitalism' can offer at the moment, it does not mean you are not part of it.  Well, at least in football.....    
 


Thats more feedback than I imagined my comment on western capitalist owned teams would provoke. You sure know your football King Kang. You get the idea though - a lot of big clubs in the west are owned by single billionaires or a few millionaires who cross borders and buy them up with impunity mostly thanks to the "free-market" mythology currently being exploded. Yeah the Russian teams are not much different but they at least have the money to retain their players and the national team is almost entirely composed with Russian players who play in Russia and not abroad.
You have give them some respect..Cool
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2008 at 08:42
You know I do, Vulkan.  I always respect the underdogs. 
 
I don't know I didn't start out like I was gonna write a long one, but you know sometimes I just go off for no good reason.Ermm
 
I wasn't upset with your comment or nothing.  You know how it is, sometimes the mind just strings stuff up until the fingers get tired......
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2008 at 14:20
Who else wants to see final between Germany and Russia?
There is such a rich history between these two nations Wink.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2008 at 14:37
particulalry friednship & cooperation...over the dead body of Poland... Evil%20Smile

anyways, i really never expected Russia to win this one but not because i udnerrated Russia but because i overrated the Dutch. it was really too early for them, and i didn't predicted them to be forming a true team already and eventually i was prooven right. as for tonight, i'm still going witht eh Italians. the Spanish look better than ever and the Italians not - but thats exactly the best condition for Italy to win! Ermm
first semi-finals: Germany will win, face it. if an underdog will make it, it will be Russia, they have the better coach. Turkey already succumbed to portugal, so both teams had their nemesis kicked by the other team and in the diretc comparison Turkey comes out worse. the other question is just if Russia will make it vs Italy? i predict them to beat Spain, but at the moment i don't think Spain will make it vs Italy. maybe i should make such speculations only after tonights match...  LOL
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2008 at 15:05
By the way. The decision to make the cards be disconted after the QF's rather than the first round has backfired. Why is it necessary anyway? Nowdays refs give cards for the smallest reason. Its unfair that two yellow cards and its a suspension. It should be three cards, or better yet, do away with it totally. We have a red card for suspensions
 
The Turkey Germany match is going to be a cakewalk probably, half the Turkish team is suspended.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2008 at 15:13
Originally posted by Sparten

By the way. The decision to make the cards be disconted after the QF's rather than the first round has backfired. Why is it necessary anyway? Nowdays refs give cards for the smallest reason. Its unfair that two yellow cards and its a suspension. It should be three cards, or better yet, do away with it totally. We have a red card for suspensions


but then the yellow card has no meaning at all. its not that the cards are unfair, they are just there to discourage unfair actions by the players, thats why now yellow cards are easily earned for even small offenses. other teams did well without collecting too many yellow cards.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2008 at 15:47
Good point Temujin!
 
Yellow cards protect the skilled players from some brutal defenders and allow us to watch some quality football.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2008 at 16:27

Go Italy. they deserve the double.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2008 at 17:16

The yellow card is unfair in my opinion.
Its not unfair to the player who get it as a penalty, but unfair to the victim and his team since it very often has no consequences until the next match(es).

It would be more fair to give an immediate 10 or 15 minutes suspension, pretty much like the 2 minutes suspension in handball.
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2008 at 18:58
Originally posted by Temujin

Originally posted by Sparten

By the way. The decision to make the cards be disconted after the QF's rather than the first round has backfired. Why is it necessary anyway? Nowdays refs give cards for the smallest reason. Its unfair that two yellow cards and its a suspension. It should be three cards, or better yet, do away with it totally. We have a red card for suspensions


but then the yellow card has no meaning at all. its not that the cards are unfair, they are just there to discourage unfair actions by the players, thats why now yellow cards are easily earned for even small offenses. other teams did well without collecting too many yellow cards.
I think you will do well to remember what the reason red/yellow cards were introduced and what they are essentially, is a globally understood caution. Let the yellow card be just that, a caution, a second will result in a sending off. Before the '70 world cup, that was the case, indeed the only reason they  were introduced, was due to that incident with the Argentine player and referee in the '66 QF who could not understand each other. A caution should be just that; a caution in the game. A red card should have the punishment of a suspension. Not two yellow cards. It has adversely affected teams before, Germany in 2002, might well have won had Ballack been allowed to play for example.
 
 
 


Edited by Sparten - 22-Jun-2008 at 19:00
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2008 at 18:59

**double post**



Edited by Sparten - 22-Jun-2008 at 18:59
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2008 at 20:18
David Silva instead of Xabi Alonso or Fabregas.  Makes sense.  More offense and speed.  Villa, Silva and Inniesta should run at Italians all day long, especially on Ambrosini and Panucci. 
 
Senna looks so comfortable in the middle without Gattuso biting at his ankles.  Cassano vs Sergio Ramos, the formaer Real Madrid teammates, I'll give this matchup to Ramos for sure.
 
Zambrotta looks like he could be the difference maker today. He's gonna have to pick up some Pirlo's duty.  We will see.  We know he's capable.
 
Actually without Del Piero and Camoranesi, these Italians look younger than I expected.  4 AS Roma boys.  Aquilani, De Rossi, Perrota, these boys are their hope for 2010.  Glad they are put to big test already. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2008 at 20:34
End of 1st half. Spain is playing better, keeping the ball low and trying to penetrate.  Italy is just defending. let's see if this changes in the 2nd half...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2008 at 20:35
Woo, Toni should have scored that header. 
 
the Italians definitely looks better with set plays.  But then again so did the Dutch.
Without Gattuso, De Rossi and Perrota can't really come out to play.  Ambrosini's pushing up more than those two, doesn't make sense.
 
Silva could have scored and earned a penalty so far.
 
Spain should not settle on long shots.
 
Spain should find away to turn Italian free kicks into their own counter attack.  Seems to me  that is the only way they can draw out the Italians.
 
Half Time.  
 
Spain needs to score first now.  The more time goes by in the second half the Italians will gain the mental edge.  And Spain didn't do much to tire out either team in the first half.  This also favors the Italians. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2008 at 20:52
Originally posted by Northman

The yellow card is unfair in my opinion.
Its not unfair to the player who get it as a penalty, but unfair to the victim and his team since it very often has no consequences until the next match(es).

It would be more fair to give an immediate 10 or 15 minutes suspension, pretty much like the 2 minutes suspension in handball.
 


thats a good idea actually! Clap
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2008 at 20:58
Originally posted by Sparten

I think you will do well to remember what the reason red/yellow cards were introduced and what they are essentially, is a globally understood caution. Let the yellow card be just that, a caution, a second will result in a sending off.


this is still the case now. the point of a yellow card is to warn, and this is also true for "small offenses", so if a player is banned for "small offenses", he simpyl shouldn't have committed them, i don't get the problem here...?


Before the '70 world cup, that was the case, indeed the only reason they  were introduced, was due to that incident with the Argentine player and referee in the '66 QF who could not understand each other.


well they udnerstood each otehrs well, teh Argentine player just didn't wanted to understand him! LOL

A caution should be just that; a caution in the game. A red card should have the punishment of a suspension. Not two yellow cards. It has adversely affected teams before, Germany in 2002, might well have won had Ballack been allowed to play for example.


well, two yellow cards in one game result in the same as two yellow cards in two games within a tournament/league, i don't see why it there should be a difference. as far as i can see you complain about the latter (two yellow cards in two matches). well, it's a matter fo opinion but the vast number of players are not affected by this because they don't amass much yellow cards.


Edited by Temujin - 22-Jun-2008 at 21:01
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