Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Roma

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12
Author
Temujin View Drop Down
King
King
Avatar
Sirdar Bahadur

Joined: 02-Aug-2004
Location: Eurasia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5221
  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Roma
    Posted: 25-Jan-2006 at 16:25
Originally posted by Zagros

Didn't know there were that many around, are there any figures on how many were murdered byt eh Nazis?

between 200.000 and 800.000.

Back to Top
Maju View Drop Down
King
King
Avatar

Joined: 14-Jul-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6565
  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jan-2006 at 17:10
Originally posted by Zagros

Didn't know there were that many around, are there any figures on how many were murdered byt eh Nazis?



They call the Holocaust Porajmos (Devouring). Unlike in the case of Jews, historians have basically ignored their suffering at Nazi hands, still, it's estimated that between 200,000 and 800,000 Roma were exterminated.

Their persecution was simmilar as that of Jews and it's said that, in proportion, they suffered as many casualties as those of much more numerous Jews.

See these Wikipedia articles:

NO GOD, NO MASTER!
Back to Top
Maju View Drop Down
King
King
Avatar

Joined: 14-Jul-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6565
  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jan-2006 at 18:12
Originally posted by Jhangora

They believe they would eventually return to India,when Europe is destroyed.



That must be a modern myth. They didn't keep memory of their Indian origins: they have been recosntructed only modernly.

NO GOD, NO MASTER!
Back to Top
Jhangora View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 02-Oct-2005
Location: Korea, South
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1070
  Quote Jhangora Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jan-2006 at 06:03

Maju here's an article that supports your argument.It isn't important that they didn't keep memory of their Indian origins and this connection has been reconstructed in recent times.

In you own words the memory/connection has been "reconstructed".It hasn't been 'constructed'.The connection was always there.

P E R S P E C T I V E S

 The Struggle for the Control of Identity 
Ian Hancock

Previous Next

Identity

Lepselter concluded from her analysis of mid-20th-century gypsilorism that the Gypsies are both "the 'heart' of Europe and radically 'other' to it" (31). The debate this anomaly naturally provokes has centered around the "real" identity of the Romani people, both in terms of genetic descent and in terms of our status as "Europeans." The most succinct statement describing this two-sided identity is found in a recent Project on Ethnic Relations report:

Another serious problem is raised by the concept of the Romani diaspora itself. It goes beyond the borderlines of Europe, since Romani communities are found in the Middle East, Central Asia, both Americas, and Australia. Thus, why do the Roma have to be recognized as a European, or even a truly European minority (as in the Brussels Declaration of 1966)? Some Romani intellectuals and leaders recall the Romas Indian origins and heritage as a basis for their political status and identity, while others eagerly affirm their European roots and heritage and consider their Indian past as irrelevant to the current Romani causes and claims (32).

The Indian Origin

Although the Indian origin of the Romani people is beyond dispute, not only on the basis of linguistic but also of cultural and serological evidence, this remains largely the concern of the academic. While early Romani populations on their arrival in Europe were able to say that they had come from India, this fact has become lost in time, and is still generally not known to the vast majority of Roma, many of whom have internalized instead the notion of an origin in Egypt. And those who learn about the Indian connection and put it to the test by comparing their Romani with the Hindi, Sindhi or Punjabi of the ubiquitous Indian convenience-store managers in the United States find this interesting, but little else. From Hungary, Michael Stewart reported the same response:

.... the fact is most nonintellectual Rom do not seem to care where their ancestors are from. In all the time I have spent in Harangos, I have never once heard a spontaneous conversation about the geographica1 or historical roots of their own people

A recent observation by a Vlax Rrom is more explicit:

Just suppose the entire Gypsy population of the world had returned to an already overpopulated India. India can hardly handle the education and heath issues of its own population. Plus the fact of the matter is we Gypsies consider even Indians gujze (non-Gypsies). Even the Gypsies of India themselves who are called Banjarra call all other Indians gujze (gadj?.

Though Gypsies come from India there is a distinct difference between Hindus and Gypsies. For example, there is the Kama Sutra, which is the book of lovemaking and which is considered by Hindus to be holy, while Gypsies all over the world consider the art of lovemaking as taboo, (and) sexuality is kept secret. So even if you were to place all Gypsies in India, it would be no different from placing them in Germany, They would still be considered outsiders by the Indians and the Gypsies would feel no differently (34).

For very particular reasons, I have been among the most vocal in insisting that Rroma are a composite people who originated in Asia. I take the position of the sociolinguist, who sees language as the vehicle of culture, and we speak a language and maintain a culture whose core of direct retention is directly traceable to India. I believe that the acknowledgment of this position is essential, because the alternative is to create a fictitious history and to have, again, our identity in the hands of non-Romani policy-makers and scholars. They are defensible scientifically because they are supported by current academic research, and they are defensible practically because Madame Indira Gandhi openly acknowledged Rroma as an Indian population outside of India and it was the Indian government which was instrumental in helping our people achieve representation in the United Nations, and in creating our First World Romani Congress, and which is now supporting our claims for return of the gold and other possessions taken from Romani Holocaust victims and currently on deposit in Swiss banks. Without the backing of such a national government, the Romani voice would have been carried away by the wind, and these things would probably not even have happened. Those who minimize the Indian connection are not linguists or historians, although they frequently feel entirely qualified to make linguistic and historiographical pronouncements (35). Sandland (36) says that "notwithstanding the best attempts of the so-called Gypsyologists or gypsy lorists, however, the Indian connection has only been posited linguistically and it remains, to say the least, vague" ignoring the serological and cultural evidence, and basing his position solely on a second-hand acquaintance with the Traveller population in Britain. While such scholars dismiss the arguments, they offer no evidence to support their dismissal. The most elementary cultural/linguistic evidence, such as the fact that the Romani word for "cross" (trushul) originally meant "Shiva's trident," is left unaddressed. It is hard to reconcile facts such as these with the "indigenous origin" argument that Romani language and culture were passed like a relay-runners baton from population to population along trade routes, rather than being brought with one migrating people.

http://www.osi.hu/rpp/perspectives1e.htm

Jai Badri Vishal
Back to Top
Maju View Drop Down
King
King
Avatar

Joined: 14-Jul-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6565
  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jan-2006 at 16:47
Yes, as far as I know, Roma have a Roma/Gypsy identity and nothing else. They consider themselves wanderers (though they are mostly settled nowadays) and they value over all the family/clan (and after that possibly religion). The knowledge of their origins was lost and then rediscovered modernly.

Furthermore, as the example of Israel (with all its economical and military support from outside) shows clearly, any re-location of Roma in India or wherever would be a nonsense and would solve nothing. Even if they have integration problems in their actual residence areas, they actually live there and have done it for centuries. Nowadays their situation is slowly improving and there's no oficial discrimination, much less persecution. Full integration up to the point of identity-dissolution is not surely desired by Roma themselves but a more fluid integration while keeping their roots and difference is being worked out from inside and outside Roma communities. In some places like the Balcans and Andalusia they are actually a cultural engine, rather ingrained in the local cultures.

...

I find funny the transformation from Shaivite into Christians. Trushul? LOL!

What are the Roma of the Near East? Muslim? I'd like to know more about them.

NO GOD, NO MASTER!
Back to Top
Jhangora View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 02-Oct-2005
Location: Korea, South
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1070
  Quote Jhangora Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jan-2006 at 04:24

Religion

It has been suggested that while still in India the Roma people belonged to the Hindu religion, this theory being supported by the Romany word for "cross", trushul, which is the word which describes Shiva's trident.

Roma usually have adopted the dominant religion of the host country but often keep their particular ways of believing and worshipping. Most Eastern European Roma are Catholic or Orthodox or, particularly in the Balkans, Muslim. Those in Western Europe and the United States are mostly either Catholic or Protestant. Most in Latin America kept their European religion, most of them being Orthodox.

After WWII, a consistent and constantly-growing number of Roma have embraced Evangelical movements, and for the first time in history, Roma have engaged themselves as religious leaders and ministers, creating their own, autonomous churches and missionary organizations. In some countries, the majority of Roma now belong to the Romany churches. This unexpected change, usually hardly criticized by many, has greatly contributed to a better image of Roma in society, as they have begun to perform legitimate work, and obtain legal permits for commercial activities.

Evangelical Romany churches exist today in every country where Roma are settled. Particularly strong is the movement in France and Spain (in this latter State, there are more than one thousand Romany churches, known as "Filadelfia", of which almost one hundred are in Madrid alone). In Germany, the most numerous group is that of Polish Roma, having their main church in Mannheim. Other important and numerous Romany assemblies exist in Los Angeles, Houston, Buenos Aires and Mexico. Some groups in Romania and Chile have joined the Seventh-day Adventist Church.

In the Balkans, the Roma of Macedonia and Kosovo have been particularly active in Islamic mystical brotherhoods (Sufism). Muslim Roma immigrants to Western Europe and America have brought these traditions with them.

http://www.answers.com/topic/roma-people

Jai Badri Vishal
Back to Top
Maju View Drop Down
King
King
Avatar

Joined: 14-Jul-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6565
  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jan-2006 at 19:33
Yes, while Catholic for long, most Roma here are now Evangelists. This is probably a way for them to organize their own communities beyond the clanic structure. The local religious minister is now a quasi-oficial liason between the Roma communities and the "payos" (non-Roma). For instance, in the neighborhood of Atxuri, some years ago, when a couple of young drug-adict Roma were causing trouble, the one who procured a solution for the problem was the religious minister.

NO GOD, NO MASTER!
Back to Top
Jhangora View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 02-Oct-2005
Location: Korea, South
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1070
  Quote Jhangora Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jan-2006 at 00:45

So have you met any Roma Maju?Have you heard Roma music live.Roma are known for their musical talents.

Heres an article on the role of Romani music in Hunagarian nationalism.

http://www.ce-review.org/01/13/dullea13.html

Jai Badri Vishal
Back to Top
Maju View Drop Down
King
King
Avatar

Joined: 14-Jul-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6565
  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jan-2006 at 03:33
Originally posted by Jhangora

So have you met any Roma Maju?Have you heard Roma music live.Roma are known for their musical talents.



Of course I've met many Roma, here they are called "gitanos" in Spanish and "ijitoak" in Basque - both mean "gypsy" and come from the same "egyptian" etymology. Mostly they call themselves that way too - the "Roma" fashion is something very new that comes from continental Europe. There are many of them, specially in the less favored neighborhoods.

In Spain they were obligued long ago not to speak their language and as result most of them now speak a particular dialect of Spanish known as "cal". They have always been better intgrated in the South, in Andalucia particularly, where they have incorporated (and possibly transformed) the local music (flamenco). In the fascist period this Andalusian-Gypsy culture was promoted as standard Spanish folk - and therefore it's pretty much disliked in the Basque Country. Anyhow, it's something totally diferent to how Basques understand music (less rythmic, more high pitched) and dance (less loose, more coral). There's also a lot of difference between their "passion" and our "contention". But they integrate better with Spanish inmigrants.

Here Roma music is flamenco, but it's not originally Romani for what I know but Andalusian. See Wikipedia-Flamenco for more details.

Some of the most famous Gitano musicians of Spain (mostly Andalusians):


Camarn - said to be the best ever


Lola Flores (old and young), a true icon of Francoist Spain


Los Chichos


Tomatito


NO GOD, NO MASTER!
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.063 seconds.