Oghuz appearance

MythTR Buldog, I know there are Turks (especialy Kıpçak Turks) in byzantine army. But I meant that I don't know if byzantines were take the Turkish soldiers from their childish ages.   I meant I don't know they grew up them for the byzantine army. I only know They are soldier of fortune. (some of  Kıpçak Turks)

Not just Kipcak Turks, there were Pechenegs (Oghuz) and armies from various other Oghuz Turk tribes aswell.

Most were mercenery armies, however, high ranking officers over time became Byzantine and known as Turcopoli, Sons of Turks I think is the translation.

HungryWolf All Turkic people belong to Turanid race.

This is pseudo fantasy history.

There is no Turanid race and Estonians, Magyars, Finish, Japanese, Koreans and Turks are not the same people.

Also Pechenegs were Oghuz Turks therefore not theoretically extinct.

The Turkic peoples have enough differences among them but we can say they are a supra-nation, especially muslim Turks and the Christian Gagauz due to being Oghuz and Ottoman influence. There are differences but enough similarities to be connected, ie linguistically, historically, supra-identity, religion etc

But the other peoples listed are not part of one giant race or nation.

Korean and Estonians belong to different races which is obvious. "Turanid race" is a wild fantazy.

Originally posted by HungryWolf The humand race is actually a species, and there are 5 sub-species being Caucasoid, Congoid, Capoid, Australoid, and Mongoloid. Each subspecies has a number of 'races': I. Capoid or Khoisanid Subspecies of southern Africa  A. Khoid (Hottentot) race  B. Sanid (Bushmen) race  II. Congoid Subspecies of sub-Saharan Africa  A. Central Congoid race (Geographic center and origin in the Congo river basin)  1. Palaecongoid subrace (the Congo river basin: Ivory Coast, Ghana, Nigeria, Cameroon, Congo, Angola)  2. Sudanid subrace (western Africa: Niger, Mali, Senegal, Guinea)  3. Nilotid subrace (southern Sudan; the ancient Nubians were of this subrace)  4. Kafrid or Bantid subrace (east and south Africa: Kenya, Tanzania, Mozambique, Natal)  B. Bambutid race (African Pygmies)  C. Aethiopid race (Ethiopia, Somalia; hybridized with Caucasoids)  III. Caucasoid or Europid Subspecies (Geographic distribution centered in the Caucasus mountains)  A. Mediterranid race  1. West Mediterranean or Iberid subrace (Spain, Portugal, Corsica, Sardinia, and coastal areas of Morocco and Tunisia; the Atlanto-Mediterranean peoples who expanded over much of the Atlantic coastal regions of Europe during the Mesolithic period were a branch of this subrace)  2. East Mediterranean or Pontid subrace (Black Sea coast of Ukraine, Romania and Bulgaria; Aegean coasts of Greece and Turkey)  3. Dinaricized Mediterraneans (Residual mixed types resulting from the blending of Mediterranids with Dinarics, Alpines or Armenids; not a unified type, has much regional variation; predominant element [over 60%] in Sicily and southern Italy, principal element in Turkey [35%], important element in western Syria, Lebanon and central Italy, common in northern Italy. The ancient Cappadocian Mediterranean subrace of Anatolia was dinaricized during the Bronze Age [second millennium B.C.] and is a major contributor to this type in modern Turkey.)  4. South Mediterranean or Saharid subrace (predominant in Algeria and Libya, important in Morocco, Tunisia and Egypt)  5. Orientalid or Arabid subrace (predominant in Arabia, major element from Egypt to Syria, primary in northern Sudan, important in Iraq, predominant element among the Oriental Jews)  B. Dinaric race (predominant in western Balkans [Dinaric Mountains] and northern Italy, important in the Czech Republic, eastern and southern Switzerland, western Austria and eastern Ukraine)  C. Alpine race (predominant element in Luxembourg, primary in Bavaria and Bohemia, important in France, Hungary, eastern and southern Switzerland)  D. Ladogan race (named after Lake Ladoga; indigenous to Russia; includes Lappish subrace of arctic Europe)  E. Nordish or Northern European race (various subraces in the British Isles, Scandinavia, the Netherlands and Belgium; predominant element in Germany, Switzerland, Poland, Finland and the Baltic States; majority in Austria and Russia; minority in France, the Czech Republic, Slovakia and Hungary; outlined in detail in The Nordish Race)  F. Armenid race (predominant element in Armenia, common in Syria, Lebanon and northern Iraq, primary element among the Ashkenazic Jews)  G. Turanid race (partially hybridized with Mongoloids; predominant element in Kazakhstan.; common in Hungary and Turkey)  H. Irano-Afghan race (predominant in Iran and Afghanistan, primary element in Iraq, common [25%] in Turkey)  I. Indic or Nordindid race (Pakistan and northern India)  J. Dravidic race (India, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka [Ceylon]; ancient stabilized Indic-Veddoid [Australoid] blend)  IV. Australoid Subspecies  A. Veddoid race (remnant Australoid population in central and southern India)  B. Negritos (remnants in Malaysia and the Philippines)  C. Melanesian race (New Guinea, Papua, Solomon Islands)  D. Australian-Tasmanian race (Australian Aborigines)  V. Mongoloid Subspecies  A. Northeast Asian race (various subraces in China, Manchuria, Korea and Japan)  B. Southeast Asian race (various subraces in Indochina, Thailand, Malaysia, Indonesia and the Philippines, some partly hybridized with Australoids)  C. Micronesian-Polynesian race (hybridized with Australoids)  D. Ainuid race (remnants of aboriginal population in northern Japan)  E. Tungid race (Mongolia and Siberia, Eskimos)  F. Amerindian race (American Indians; various subraces)

(;  I think the other scandinav countries are starting this researchments. Estonia , Findlandia etc...

Originally posted by HungryWolf The humand race is actually a species, and there are 5 sub-species being Caucasoid, Congoid, Capoid, Australoid, and Mongoloid. Each subspecies has a number of 'races':

All human beings alive today belong to one species: homo sapiens

I'm agreeing with you. It's very punctual and true. But there is many peoples and countries who and which are thinking there is only one civil human race in the world and it is europoid.

There is no such thing as race what divide peoples. All we are humans. I'm trying to be humanist always.

Their country may have "Hun" in the name but the people are Magyars

Edited by HungryWolf - 15-Mar-2009 at 22:59

Sarmat Magyars are Finno-Urgians, not Turks.

Exactly

So, what? You know how many parallels I can give you between English and Latin?                                                                        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Latin_words_with_English_derivatives     So, using your logic I conclude that English people are actually Romans.

Originally posted by MythTR Originally posted by eaglecap I am sorry that is wrong- byzantines and Seljuk the same - show me some sources on that and cite them. The Sejuk Turks were a Turkic tribe that invaded Persia and then Anatolia by defeating the Byzantine army at the battle of Manzikert. I do not know what revision history you are reading but it is, no offense to you, baloney. I really do not like wickpedia and do not consider the best source but check any historic source about that period and you will see how false your assumption is: Ask Byzantine Emp who is a grad major in Byzantine history. In fact, I think he has graduated from Michigan State University. Selçuks = Byzantines right!! . http://tk.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Alp_Arslan[/QUOTE]   If I don't interest I couldn't pass this object. A Huge Big Very very big false.   Seljuks = Byzantines ?   no , not.   If in this picture he was a SelÇuk warior you can choose them easyly. At that period, first Turk and Byzantine wars haven't blonde Turkish soldier. The Kipçaks went to the river with their horses and they suiceded, after they learnt they were fighting in byzantine army in front of Turks.   You can see easyly there weren't characteristic Turkish in this picture. Because this period not blonde   What a english.

NO - the Seljuks were a Turkic tribe that invaded Anatolia but yes the Byzantines did use various Turkic tribes as mercenaries. Some of them became Christianized and intermarried with the Rum. This does not make the Seljuk a Turkic Tribe Byzantine.

here please read:

Byzantine Armies AD 1118-1461 AD- Ian Heath
Turks:
Hired extensively during the middle Byzantine era, the employment of large numbers of Turks was revived under Michael VIII in the second half of the 13th century. He is recorded as having 5,000 Seljuks in his pay by 1262 when those associated with the central army were as……
Page 34
Some were Christians
Often to be found brigaded alongside Turks in the 12th-14th centuries and sometimes indistinguishable from them, was a corps of regular troops called the Tourkopouloi or sons of Turks. Nominally consisting of Christianized Turks or the issue of mixed unions, on occasion they included natives of the Anatolian provinces, who Pachymeres records shaving their heads Turkish fashion in order to join them.   34
The Byzantines did distinguish the Seljuks not only as a different ethnic group but as Turks.
Uzes: Seljuk = Turkic tribe
A Turkish people very similar in appearance and identical in armament to the Cumans and/ or the Seljuks (from whom some sources have difficulty distinguishing them) 34

Byzantine Armies AD 886- 1118 - Ian Heath
Osprey – Men at arms series

The Terrible day: Manzikert 1071
Armenia, once the Empires principle recruiting ground but now left practically defenseless by disbandment of its thematic armies, was in the hands of the Suljuk TURKS by 1067. This loss was followed by almost continuous Turkish Incursion into the Anatolia heartland of the Empire…..   page 24 Byzantine Armies AD

Today - I do not doubt there are many Turkish people who have Byzantine roots along with Slavic, Semitic and the list can go on. The Ottoman Empire, like America, was a melting pot of different races and ethnic groups. I could see it when I was there but when the Seljuk Turks first arrived in that region they were part of the greater Turkic family.

Read Alexiad of Ana Comnena and remember the First Crusade began when Emperor Alexiad Comnena invited 4-5,000 Frankish Knights to reclaim lands conquered by the Seljuks after 1071 AD.


They distinguished the Seljuk as being different but if you want to believe in such revision history that is your choice. Maybe it is just your opinion!!




MythTR - you are young but I encourage you to read multiple sources so you can get various opinions from all angles first. I sometimes fail to do this here because I am very busy and really should not use up valuable time here.

Edited by eaglecap - 16-Mar-2009 at 19:47