Ruszki & Kiernozia 39- Panzers crushed by infantry

Originally posted by beorna The Polish government left Warsaw on the 5th of September (!) and left towards the Romanian border. On the 14th of September the Polish government, till that day, talking about one victory after the other, gave up the chance to win. The main forces of Poland were defeated. Only greater troops in Warsaw hadn't surrender, on Hela and in Modlin too.

Edited by ataman - 20-Dec-2008 at 06:22

Originally posted by beorna This sounds like a Polish kind of "Dolchstoßlegende".

Since we've been discussing the Polish campaing in such in details, I want to add that besided "cooperation" there was a number of clashes betrween the advancing German and Soviet forces.

Originally posted by Domen Actually, there was an escapade to East Prussia made by Podlaska Cavalry Brigade - several dozen POWs from Grenzschutz and Selbshutz were captured during it as far as I remember.

OK, that was for sure a great victory

Originally posted by beorna When the war began at the 1st of September, only in one capitol people were chearing. Since month placards were hanging in the streets that were calling for to march to the neighbour's capitol, chauvinistic politicians were calling for annexions of great parts of their neighbour country. This was not Berlin - it was Warsaw. Polish newsletter were cheering for a Polish successful march on Berlin, even when German troops stood before Bromberg, they spoke about French campaigns through the Westwall and of success in East Prussia allthough no Polish soldier ever went to.

First reason of a quick defeat was that Polish army streched their defensive lines along the border instead of focusing along the rivers in the centre Poland. Thanks to such position of Polish army German divisions easily went through Polish lines and sourraunded Polish divisions separating one from the other. Decision of Polish army headquater to defend whole territory instead of preparing tougher defence in a better terrain was made because Poland was afraid that Germans will take Western Poland and stop. This could cause that Wetern allies would accept German's territory gains as Poland left it without fight anyway. So Poland would be beaten without any fight. Nevertheless Poland was doomed anyway, its defence could have only last maybe 2 weeks longer. This discussion ia really amusing. I think our Germans colleagues think we are completelly crazy and think Poland would have beat Germany if not SU attack.

Originally posted by Domen This discussion ia really amusing. I think our Germans colleagues think we are completelly crazy and think Poland would have beat Germany if not SU attack. Poles wouldn't have beaten Germans and wouldn't have captured Berlin - this is certain. The problem is if the Germans would have beaten the Poles. I am not shure if the Germans would have had things to bit Poland with, if not the Soviet agression on 17th of September, because according to general Mueller-Hillebrand ("Das Heer, 1933 - 1945", volume 1, page 161) Hitler started war with only 6-days resources of calibre 20mm ammo - which was a basic ammunition for both German tanks (Panzer II) and AA guns. During the first 6 days of the campaign he ran out of this resources, during the next days he was using what he managed to produce in period between 1st and 6th of September, and also current production, during the following days - only current production. By around 25th of September he probably didn't have a single 20mm bullet in the whole III Reich... Of course if general Mueller-Hillebrand's data isn't wrong.

I think You are totally wrong. On 17th September Germans were on the outskirts of Warsaw. So the answer is yes, they would have beaten Poles without SU involvment, with not much delay.

Read my posts on the previous pages of this topic.

Warsaw was not important for the Poles any longer. Warsaw could have been captured by the Germans - it wouldn't have changed the general situation. Marschal Rydz-Smigly ordered Warsaw to defend as long as possible only because he wanted to delay the Germans. He was concentrating his forces in totally different part of the country - and there he planned to establish further defence against the Germans.

In 1940 France was still fighting after Paris was seized by the Germans, I see no reason why Poland could not (while actually even in real it was - but against two invaders).

It was the south-eastern part of the frontline - Romanian Bridgehead, Lwów (Lemberg in German), Polesie, Kobryn, Wolhynia (Wołyń in Polish), Roztocze and Eastern Lesser Poland, which was the most important for further defence of Poland. And it was there where the Poles planned to resist the Germans - if not the Soviet agression.

I remind all of you that Lemberg and huge area around it was never captured by the Germans, even though the Germans started to attack it on 12th of September 1939. On 17th of September it was the Polish army which gained a big succes near Lwów - 10th Motorized Brigade recaptured Zboiska and hills around it, which would soon make it very easy for forces of Sosnkowski (3 infantry divisions) - which were fighting with the Germans west of Lwów - to get to Lwów or the area north of it (between Lwów and Żółkiew) very quickly. Unfortunately after the Soviet agression 10th Motorized Brigade was ordered to withdraw to Romania - and the succes was lost, because after the 10th Brigade withdrawed, the Germans recaptured previously lost ground without combat.

The Germans - however - withdrawed from the area near Lemberg on 21st of September - they didn't manage to acomplish their tasks - the battle of Lemberg was won by the Poles.

On 22nd of September a treaty between the Soviets and the Polish commanders of Lemberg was signed, and the Polish forces in Lemberg gave the city to the Red Army. Red Army allowed Polish soldiers to go to their homes - as was established in the treaty. But they did not keep all conditions of the treaty - because instead of letting officers go - as they promised in the treaty -, they captured all of them (and later all of them were murderred in Katyn).

When Red Army seized the city, Polish poet - Wladislav Broniewski - who was in Lwów on 22nd of September - wrote a short poem:

"Byłby drugi Grunwald i byłyby drugie Płowce
Gdyby nie te bombowce
I gdyby nie te czołgi
Które przybyły znad Wołgi"

"There would be second Grunwald and there would be second Płowce
If not these bombers
And these tanks
Which came from the Volga"

Lemberg was the goal which the Germans simply had to (and wanted to) reach, if they wanted to defeat Poland and to carry out new offensive against the Polish forces in Romanian Bridgehead, Eastern Lesser Poland and Wolhynia - which would have been absolutely nescessary to defeat Poland, if the Soviets hadn't have beginned their invasion.

And - as I posted previously (attaching suitable maps to my posts - showing situation in Poland on 17th of September and the German plans before the Soviet agression) - the German High Command planned to carry out an offensive against the Polish forces in Romanian Bridgehead - and - of course - capturing Lemberg during it (and later attacking towards Kamionka Strumilova - Tarnopol or Brody and towards Stanislavov - today Ivano-Frankovsk) - but they simply didn't have forces nescessary to do it in this region of Poland - because the majority of their forces were involved in different parts of Poland.

One + half very weakened Panzer divisions - which the Germans planned to use during this offensive - was not enough to capture Lememberg, defeat 10th Motorized Brigade and other forces which were defending the area around Lemberg - and also not enough to defeat forces which were on their farther route. It was not enough to end this planned offensive with succes.

It simply shows us how little the Germans knew about the strength of the Polish forces in this region - especcialy around Lemberg. They underestimated it, if they thought that they could capture Lemberg - and advance farther - by an attack of such - relatively small - forces.

Full scale attack on Lemberg in strength of only one, much weakened Panzer-Division (5. Panzer-Division) must have ended in the same way as the attack on Warsaw carried out by 4. Panzer-Division ended - or even worse. So - total failure.

Especcialy that on 9th of September Warsaw was defended by much smaller and weaker forces, than Lemberg on 17th of September.

Bolivia had a German trained Army and the Paraguayans a French trained Army and the Paraguayans won. then there was also the Spanish Civil War and the second Sino-Japanese War. the soldiers of those countries were certainly more experienced in 1939 than the German Army.

In both wars - Gran Chaco War and Spanish Civil War - a lot of German soldiers took part - both land forces and Luftwaffe (see for example "Legion Condor") - and they gained a lot of new experiences during those wars.

you must be kidding me. the Polish Cavalry was not very well used in 1939

The Polish Cavalry was used very well in 1939, but Cavalry is not a strategical mean of offensive !!

It is good for manoeuvre and offensive on tactical level - but not on strategical level ! Motorized, mechanized and armoured forces are suitable for such operations - not cavalry!

The Poles - however - had got different experiences - because in 1920 they managed to beat the Soviets with cavalry and infantry - used on strategical level !

Poland always emphasized on mobile warfare

Of course! - and in 1920 it worked - because both Poland and its enemy didn't have practically any motorized or armoured forces - so - so called - "fast arms"!

And in 1939 Polish infantry had to race with German motors!

What is better in mobile warfare - infantry on foot or motorized infantry ?!

the Polish high command certainly didn't learned their lesson

They certainly did!

During the Polish-Soviet war of 1919 - 1921 - as I have already written - they learned that fighters and tactical bombers are not nescessery - because recon planes are the most important to win the war! - they also learned that motorized forces are expensive but not nescessary luxury - and that phone communication is OK - radio - not nescessary!

But all of those allegedly - but in fact falsely - "useful" "experiences" turned out to be completely false and obsolete during the future conflict in 1939!

and talking about Soviet tanks, they had next to Britain the second largest number of tanks, armoured trains and armoured cars, you can read that in every book. they were heavily used during the Russian Civil War which occured at the same time as the Polish-Bolshewik War.

Give me exact numbers! - how many tanks did the Soviets use during the Polish-Soviet war of 1919 - 1921 ???!!

you always repeat to say that the Poles at the border retreated, but you never talk about defeat. you make it sound as if they retreated because they were bored or had nothing better to do, as if it was their free will to do so.

Because the majority of the Polish units was ordered to withdraw, although they held their defensive positions - only some units were pushed aside.

And another thing is that even being pushed aside (lost some ground) does not mean being defeated.

See in which places did the Germans break through the frontline - and you will not ask such questions any more.

On 7th of September Polish frontline was broken only in two places - between positions of Army "Łódź" and Northern Grouping of Army "Prusy" near Koluszki - Tomaszów Lubelski - Rawa Mazowiecka - by 4th Panzer-Division (which later reached outskirts of Warsaw on 9th of September and attacked it but was defeated); and between positions of Army "Cracow" and Southern Grouping of Army "Prusy" - near Kielce - Busko - by 3rd Leichte Division and 2nd Leichte Division (which later contributed very much - together with other divisions, including 1st Leichte, 29th and 13th Motorized and several infantry divisions - in encircling and defeating Southern Grouping of Army "Prusy" during the battles in region of Radom and Iłża).


Edited by Domen - 27-Dec-2008 at 00:27

what a nonsense you talk about. there's so many fantasies in your post. how would Germany run out of ammunition but not your Lwow region which was isolated and crammed by retreating Polish units, how would that work? and again, it's not Germanies fault that the Polish Army was not modern, that's just how i was. and the fall of a capital is always a serious loss not only to administration but also to the morale of the whole Army. i already pointed out the victories of Red cavalry forces particularly in encircling the 6th Army in Stalingrad as well as the sucesses of the Cavalry-Mechanized Group of General Pli'ev. Poland never used larger formations of Cavalry than Brigade, left alone Cavalry Corps, so it is justified when i say the Polish Army mismanaged their Cavalry forces. don't know about the air force but certainly mechanized forces were intensively used durign the Russian Civil War. if they didn't had much of them in the Polish-Bolshewik War, well than good for Poles because there could have been a different outcome then. Whites were heavily supplied with tanks by the Entente forces and armorued cars & traisn were either self-made druing the war or also imported from Entente powers, mostly England. many of them were then also captured by Bolshewiks. those Germans that fought in the Spanish Civil War were only a fragment of the main Army and mostly general officers which also fought as junior officers in ww1 already. i seriously doubt you know much about ww2 at all. have you ever heard of the Kurland pocket, the former Army Group North? do you seriously believe they could have held out forever? i repeat, there is no way Poland could have won the 1939 campaign even without Soviet help. that's like saying Germany could have won ww2 without Amercian help and it's completely tedious to discuss this.

Originally posted by Domen The vast majority of those soldiers were captured - as you even noticed - after 17th of September. To this you must the Soviet figures - these are of course figures for the whole campaign - but they probably captured the majority of those soldiers during first several days (maybe during the first week): - Ukrainian Front claimed capturing 392,334 Polish POWs. - Byelorussian Front claimed capturing 60,202 Polish POWs. To this we must add those who escaped to Romania and other neighbouring countries between 17th and 23rd of September (of course many escaped also later - after 23rd of September).