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Who were the first settlers on the Balkans?

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  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Who were the first settlers on the Balkans?
    Posted: 14-Sep-2007 at 23:16
Originally posted by Dinakos

I am nowhere near a linguist and cannot assess theories of ancient Balkan languages. I have read that the Greek language origininated somewhere in the Balkans, north of Greece. Is it possible that the Neolithic haplotypes in modern Greeks are evidence of a pre-Greek population? If modern Croatians are largely descended from pre-Slavic peoples, why should the modern Greeks not be in part descended from pre-Greek peoples?  Were the most ancient Greek speakers a relatively small military elite, who linguistically influenced their neighbors? Were they like the modern Turks, who are in large part descended from indigenous peoples?
 
The debate among linguists is whether the Indo-European language originated in the Kurgan area or Anatolia (or both).
for sure the Greeks are mainly descended from pre-greek population, language shift normally doesn't correlate with genetics in a exact way.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Sep-2007 at 00:02
[/QUOTE]for sure the Greeks are mainly descended from pre-greek population, language shift normally doesn't correlate with genetics in a exact way.
[/QUOTE]
 
If this is true--alluding to the post in this thread that mentions Greek haplogroups--I wonder what were the proto-Greeks' haplogroups. Were they of the Neolithic variety who made small migrations in the area or were they more Paleolithic?
 
Again, some genetic theory implies that the oldest Balkanites may have been those who gathered in the Balkans to escape the Ice Age and who on the male side belong to DNA haplogroup I. The Neolithic peoples are thought to have arrived in the Balkans thousands of years later.
 
On the other hand, we have Aris Poulianos, a Greek anthropologist who states that some human remains found in or around Greece are much older than the Ice Age refugees. I also read somewhere, if I remember correctly, that male haplogroup G may be Paleolithic and could have been in the Balkans much earlier than the Ice Age refugees.
 
Genetic studies, again on the male side, show that there's more of a Neolithic presence in the eastern Balkans, in Romania and Bulgaria, than in the Adriatic area. If proto-Greeks did come from those areas, there is a chance that they would have been partly Neolithic. Anthropologist J.L. Angel stated that Greeks have been relatively diverse since a very early age, with Alpine and Mediterranean skeletal morphologies predominating.
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Sep-2007 at 09:01
Originally posted by Leonidas

  language shift normally doesn't correlate with genetics in a exact way.
 
That's true. Actually recent studies suggest that the correlation is very weak and genetic similarities correlate more with geografic distribution rather than linguistic.  
.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Sep-2007 at 18:05
Old helenes do not represent a specific race.
The ancient helenes are nothing more than a small MILITARY ARISTOKRACY  .
Ancient greek language is a convencional language not a natural one.
The only natural language which survived the history is the ALBANIAN LANGUAGE. This is the language of the pelasgians, and epiriotes in its modern status.
Illyrians belong to another wave.
Albanian=Epiriot : the first inhabitant of the Balkan and most likely the whole Europe. 
 
 


Edited by ZEUS10 - 15-Sep-2007 at 18:09
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  Quote chicagogeorge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Sep-2007 at 11:28
Originally posted by ZEUS10

Old helenes do not represent a specific race.
The ancient helenes are nothing more than a small MILITARY ARISTOKRACY  ...



Do you have any proof that the original Greek tribes were a small military aristocracy? If that were the case, than the ancient Greek language would have many many more non Greek words in it if they were only a small band of warriors who enslaved a larger non Greek population.

Originally posted by ZEUS10


Ancient greek language is a convencional language not a natural one.
The only natural language which survived the history is the ALBANIAN LANGUAGE. This is the language of the pelasgians, and epiriotes in its modern status.
Illyrians belong to another wave.
Albanian=Epiriot : the first inhabitant of the Balkan and most likely the whole Europe.


More laughable theories. First off, Albanian is an Indo European language. Secondly, Illyrians are thought to have moved down the adriatic coast around 1300 bc. and third, Basque is a pre Indo-European language which is said to be the oldest surviving language in Europe.


As for Albania=Epirote bs, NO ancient source have ever linked Epirotes as Albanians or Illyrian. Actually they always separate Epirotes from Illyrians.

Here is an ancient quote that clearly shows that the Epirotes were considered part of the Greeks.  

 
 
Speech of Lykiskos, the representative of Akarnania to the Lakedaimonians (Spartans):
"In the past you rivalled the Achaians and the Macedonians, peoples of your own race, and Philip, their commander, for the hegemony and glory, but now that the freedom of the Hellenes is at stake at a war against an alien people Romans, ...And does it worth to ally with the barbarians, to take the field with them against the Epeirotans, the Achaians, the Akarnanians, the Boiotians, the Thessalians, in fact with almost all the Hellenes with the exception of the Aitolians who are a wicked nation...
...So Lakedaimonians it is good to remember your ancestors,... be
afraid of the Romans... and DO ALLY yourselves with the Achaians and Macedonians. But if some the most powerful citizens are opposed to this policy at least stay neutral and do not side with the unjust.

Polybios 9.37.7-39.7


What about Albanians and Illyrians? Did they worship the same gods as the Epirotes? NO.

Here is what Aristotle wrote in his work Meteorologica:

Greek text:
"...ἀλλ ὥσπερ ὁ καλούμενος ἐπὶ Δευκαλίωνος κατακλυσμό ς καὶ γὰρ οὗτος περὶ τὸν Ἑλληνικὸν ἐγένετο τόπον μάλιστα, καὶ τούτου περὶ τὴν Ἑλλάδα τὴν ἀρχαίαν. αὕτη δ ἐστὶν ἡ περὶ Δωδώνην καὶ τὸν Ἀχελῷον οὗτος γὰρ πολλαχοῦ τὸ ῥεῦμα μεταβέβληκ εν ᾤκουν γὰρ οἱ Σελλοὶ ἐνταῦθα καὶ οἱ καλούμενοι τότε μὲν Γραικοὶ νῦν δ Ἕλληνες..."

Translation:
"The deluge in the time of Deucalion, for instance, took place chiefly in the Greek world and in it especially about ancient Hellas, the country about Dodona and the Achelous, a river which has often changed its course. Here the Selli dwelt and those who were formerly called Graeci and now Hellenes."


It is clear that Aristotle considered Epiros ancient Hellas even in his ereWink

here are a couple referring to PyrrhusClap

XI. "War was at the same time proclaimed against the Tarentines (who are still a people at the extremity of Italy), because they had offered violence to some Roman ambassadors. These people asked aid against the Romans of Pyrrhus, king of Epirus, who derived his origin from the family of Achilles...

XIII. "...Thus the ambassador of Pyrrhus returned; and, when Pyrrhus asked him "what kind of a place he had found Rome to be," Cineas replied, that "he had seen a country of kings, for that all there were such, as Pyrrhus alone was thought to be in Epirus and the rest of Greece."

Eutropius (Abridgment of Roman History) Historiae Romanae Breviarium

but we know of no Greek before Pyrros who fought against Rome.

Pausanias, 1.11


"It was for this reason that Pyrrhus was defeated by the Romans also in a battle to the finish. For it was no mean or untrained army that he had, but the mightiest of those then in existence among the Greeks and one that had fought a great many wars; nor was it a small body of men that was then arrayed under him, but even three times as large as his adversary's, nor was its general any chance leader, but rather the man whom all admit to have been the greatest of all the generals who flourish at that same period;"


Dionysius of Halicarnnasus, Roman Antiquities, 19.11


"Theopompus says, that there are fourteen Epirotic nations. Of these, the most celebrated are the Chaones and Molotti, because the whole of Epirus was at one time subject, first to Chaones, afterwards to Molotti. Their power was greatly strengthened by the family of their kings being descended from the Aeacid, and because the ancient and famous oracle of Dodona was in their country. Chaones, Thesproti, and next after these Cassopi, (who are Thesproti,) occupy the coast, a fertile tract reaching from the Ceraunian mountains to the Ambracian Gulf."

"The Molotti also were Epirot, and were subjects of Pyrrhus Neoptolemus, the son of Achilles, and of his descendants, who were Thessalians. The rest were governed by native princes. Some tribes were continually endeavouring to obtain the mastery over the others, but all were finally subdued by the Macedonians, except a few situated above the Ionian Gulf."

Strabo, 7.7.1


Now they have found
archaeological evidence since the 1950's proving that the Molossians spoke a distinct northwest dialect of the Greek language related to Doric.


One last thing. We know ancient Epirotes worshiped Greek gods, and even participated in the Olympics. Have Illyrians  ever participated? No!


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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Sep-2007 at 20:01
Originally posted by chicagogeorge

Originally posted by ZEUS10

Old helenes do not represent a specific race.
The ancient helenes are nothing more than a small MILITARY ARISTOKRACY  ...

Do you have any proof that the original Greek tribes were a small military aristocracy?
 
Lets compare:
 
1. Athenians=pelasgians
2. Spartans= helenes
 

ATHENS

"Populace of Athens"

SPARTA

The Greeks  "Sparta"

Population & Map

Approximately 140,000; Approximately 40,000 men were citizens; and slaves (about 40,000). By 432 BC, Athens had become the most populous city-state in Hellas. In Athens and Attica, there were at least 150,000 Athenians, around 50,000 aliens, and more than 100,000 slaves.

Approximately 100,000. About 8,000 were Spartiate adult male citizens.

Government &

Political organizations

Athenian Government

Usually classified as a "limited democracy". Athens claims to be the "birthplace of democracy".

 

Elected officials including 10 generals (strategos), magistrates (archons), and others.

Council of 500 was charged with administering decisions made by the Assembly.

The Assembly open to all citizens (all citizens were eligible to attend such meetings and speak up). They passed laws and made policy decisions. The Assembly met on the Hill of the Pnyx at the foot of the Acropolis.

 

During time of Pericles citizens were paid for jury service so not only the wealthy could participate.

Women did not participate in the political life of Athens.

Spartan Government:

Usually classified as an "oligarchy" (rule by a few), but it had elements of monarchy (rule by kings), democracy (through the election of council/senators), and aristocracy (rule by the upper class or land owning class).

Two kings who were generals in command of the armies and with some religious duties.

Five overseers (ephors) elected annually ran the day-to-day operations of Sparta. They could veto rulings made by the council or assembly.

Council or Senate (apella) of 28 councilmen (men over 60 and elected for life by the citizens) and the 2 kings. They acted as judges and proposed laws to the citizens' assembly.

The Assembly of all Spartan males aged 30 or over could support or veto the council's recommendations by shouting out their votes.

Women did not participate in the political life of Sparta.

Social Structure

Social Structure of Athens:

Freemen were all male citizens: divided into numerous classes: at the top were aristocrats who had large estates and made up the cavalry or captained triremes; middle ranks were small farmers; lowest class was the thetes (urban craftsmen and trireme rowers).

Metics - those who came from outside the city; they were not allowed to own land, but could run industries and businesses.

Slaves were lowest class, but less harshly treated than in most other Greek cities. Slaves had no rights, and an owner could kill a slave. Slaves varied in status: some were given important roles in Athens, like policemen.

Women were rarely seen outside the home and had no rights in the Athenian democracy.

Social Structure of Sparta:

Three classes: Spartiates (military professionals who lived mostly in barracks and whose land was farmed by serfs; they served in the army and could vote).

Perioeci or "neighbors/outsiders" who were freemen; they included artisans, craftsmen, merchants; they could not vote or serve in the army; foreigners could be in this class.

Helots (serfs descended from those peoples who had resisted subjugation by Sparta and who were constantly rebelling. They were treated like slaves and gave 1/2 of their produce to the Spartiate citizens who owned the land.

Women had few rights, but were more independent in Sparta than elsewhere in Greece.

Allies

Delian League (with Athens clearly the most powerful); Athens taxed and protected other city-states.

Peloponnesian League (with Sparta clearly the most powerful).

Military strength

Strong navy.

Strong army, best and most feared fighters on land.

Life style and values

Democratic values for citizens. They believed in participation in government as a civic responsibility.

Athenians believed in their cultural superiority and in their role in an empire and benefiting from trade. (See Pericles' Funeral Oration showing these values.) "Further, we provide many ways to refresh the mind from the burdens of business. We hold contests and offer sacrifices all the year round, and the elegance of our private establishments forms a daily source of pleasure and helps to drive away sorrow. The magnitude of our city draws the produce of the world into our harbor, so that to the Athenian the fruits of other countries are as familiar a luxury as those of his own."

Spartan culture:

Militaristic values. Children of citizens were raised to be "Spartan", taught to get along with almost nothing. Spartiate citizens were not permitted to own gold or silver or luxuries. Spartan children were taught to respect elderly, women, and warriors. [The strict separation of classes and militaristic system was put into place by Lycurgus in the 8th (?) century BC.]

Spartan mothers would say to their sons, "Either come back with your shield or on it" (meaning return victorious or die fighting).

This lifestyle was praised by Xenophon, an ancient historian c. 375 BCE.

Education

Boys: Schools taught reading, writing and mathematics, music, poetry, sport and gymnastics. Based upon their birth and the wealth of their parents, the length of education was from the age of 5 to 14, for the wealthier 5 - 18 and sometimes into a student's mid-twenties in an academy where they would also study philosophy, ethics, and rhetoric (the skill of persuasive public speaking). Finally, the citizen boys entered a military training camp for two years, until the age of twenty. Foreign metics and slaves were not expected to attain anything but a basic education in Greece, but were not excluded from it either.

Girls: Girls received little formal education (except perhaps in the aristocrats' homes through tutors); they were generally kept at home and had no political power in Athens. The education of a girl involved spinning, weaving, and other domestic art.

Boys: Boys were taken from parents at age seven and trained in the art of warfare. They were only give a cloak - no shoes or other clothes, and not enough food so they had to steal (to learn survival skills). At age 20 they were placed into higher ranks of the military. To age 30 they were dedicated to the state; then they could marry but still lived in barracks with other soldiers.

They were educated in choral dance, reading and writing, but athletics and military training were emphasized.

 

Girls: Girls were educated at age 7 in reading and writing, gymnastics, athletics and survival skills. Could participate in sports; treated more as equals.

Role of women

Athenian women:

Athenian women and girls were kept at home with no participation in sports or politics. Wives were considered property of their husbands. They were were responsible for spinning, weaving and other domestic arts.

Some women held high posts in the ritual events and religious life of Athens (where the goddess Athena was the patron).

Prostitutes and courtesans were not confined to the house. Some became influential (such as Aspasia). See Greek Multimedia Project: BP 44 "Hetaira and Courtesans"

Spartan women and the role of Spartan women:

Girls were educated in reading and writing and could participate in sports; they were treated more as equals to men. The goal was to produce women who would produce strong healthy babies. At age 18 she would be assigned a husband and return home. Citizen women were free to move around and enjoyed a great deal of freedom. Domestic arts (weaving, spinning, etc.) were usually left to the other classes. Spartan women could own and control their own property. In times of war the wife was expected to oversee her husband's property and to guard it against invaders and revolts until her husband returned.

Cultural achievements and legacy

Art, architecture, drama and literature, philosophy, science, medicine, etc. Government (democracy, trial by jury)

Military legacy.

 

Other

 

Food: Athenians enjoyed luxuries and foods from all over their empire. Wealthy Athenian homes were quite nice with an inner courtyard.

Food: Spartan Broth consisted of pork, blood, salt and vinegar. Spartans were trained to dislike luxuries and fancy foods. The men lived most of their lives in military barracks.

 
 


Edited by ZEUS10 - 16-Sep-2007 at 20:05
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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Sep-2007 at 01:27
Good...But after that mess in the other thread you still fail to proove you understand a single word of the language of the Athenians. LOL


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  Quote chicagogeorge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Sep-2007 at 21:25
Zeus, what about all the Athenian who colonized Ionia? And the ones who colonized southern Italy? There is no evidence of Pelasgian  in the Ionic dialect of Greek. None. We do know that people still spoke Pelasgian at the time of Herodotus.  Plus, in your above post, you are only using statistics from Sparta as the Dorian Hellenes, when there were dozens of Greek tribes and cities that were Dorians. Also, the Macedonians claimed the same decent as of the Spartans (from Hercules). Dorian cities, and regions: Epirus, Macedonia, Sparta, Corinth, Olympia, Rhodes, parts of Crete, Kos, Halicarnassus, Lindos, Kameiros, Syracusas, Selinus..... and many more.


So we have a few possibilities that exist. One, the Pelasgian language was related to Proto Greek, and thus Herodotus tries to demonstrate a very ancient relationship between Proto Greeks and Pelasgian. Two, this passage from Herodotus either presents a false history of the Athenians (Ionians). Or three, they Ionians were called Pelasgian stock because they were the earlier proto Greeks to arrive in mainland Greece, while the Dorians continued to dwell in the north around Epiros and western Macedonia.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Sep-2007 at 21:41
Originally posted by Flipper

Good...But after that mess in the other thread you still fail to proove you understand a single word of the language of the AtheniansLOL
 
Till now the only thing I have failed is publishing my work but you must know that every single word of the language spoken by the inhabitants of entire ancient "Hellas" belongs to Albanian language.
Since I beleive that this forum is a good place to exchange our thoughts you have no right to judge me, but just to give your opinion about the topic. I assure you that I'm a fair and strong character, so confront your ideas with me. I will find time to give you a answer when you would deserve a answer. Till then just watch the shadow of my name.
 
 
 
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  Quote chicagogeorge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Sep-2007 at 23:17
^^

A borderline insane assertion. I am waiting for your so called evidence.
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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Sep-2007 at 00:56
Originally posted by ZEUS10

Till now the only thing I have failed is publishing my work but you must know that every single word of the language spoken by the inhabitants of entire ancient "Hellas" belongs to Albanian language.
 


Ok, then...Confused

Lets conversate in ancient Greek... LOL

If that is the case, proove it that way...I will talk to you in ancient greek. What more proof would people want?Embarrassed


Edited by Flipper - 18-Sep-2007 at 01:02


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  Quote chicagogeorge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Sep-2007 at 17:07
 

An intersting take on the subject of the Pelagians from another forum (NOT MY WRITING)


 Of the various theories concerning the origin of the name Pelasgi the most credible is this of Πελήος Άργος , that mean 'the old residents of the county', since πέληος means old and Άργος means country. Pelargi or Pelasgi or Pelasgiki was not the name that the residents of the Neolithic and the earlier Bronze Age in Greece used for themselves, but it was the name that was given to them by the invading Achaeanss.. On the contrary, the Pelasgians called the residents of Istros (the river Danube) as 'Hyperboreans(Strabo C, 295), and they had contact with them before they returned to Greece.

The term Hyperborean give a lot of feed to several Hellenecentrics and I want in this phase to ignore it.

Greek mythology constitutes a source of ancient information, despite the fact that it is veiled by the mists of time and the symbolism of the narrative. It can yield precious information if one can understand its descriptions. It is also possible, that some of the names of the ancient Greek gods could have been in the remote past some distinguished personalities in the country. These personages may have lived during that first peak of Hellenism.. The Greek deities. as elaborated by the popular psyche, were finally identified with humanity's several innate natural 'laws' (family, war, love, agriculture. wisdom, navigation, etc).

As Dionysios of Alicarnasus(C,17) points out "and the ancient nation of Pelasgians, which derived from the Peloponnese, was Hellenic". Although Herodotus admits dl that he does not know what the Pelasgian language was, he supposes that it was a barbaric language based on the language that two or three doubtful states spoke in his time. Strangely, however, he does not mention the language of the Lemnians, whom he himself attests were Pelasgians , nor the language of the other islanders fl - more thanlikely because they were speaking the Hellenic 1anguage.g) Herodotus elsewhere attestsh) that the Pelasgians of Attica "had been thought Hellenes", which means that they could not have had a very different language. He also believes that all the names of the gods were Pelasgic, and that the word θεός (god) was given by the Pelasgians because god έθεσε (placed) everything in the world. According to Plato, the Pelasgic names of the ancient Hellenic gods can be interpreted by the Hellenic 1anguage. Εven the dual name of Zeus (Διός Ζηνός) οginated from the Pelasgic expression of 'creating life' (διδούς ζήν) -this name was divided into two different names by later Greek tribes. Herodotus himself accepts the fact that the Ionians, Aeolians,(7-94,95) and Athenians(8-44) were pure descendants of the Pelasgians.

So in my opinion Pelasgians were part of that that we call ancient Hellenic history, they participate in the Greek revolution (specially in the language and mythology) and finally absorbed from the Hellenic tribes.

Some call them as Proto-Greeks

http://alex.eled.duth.gr/Eldoseis/ko...xts/03peri.htm

but we will be sure(if this theory sustain) when we deciphere the Linear A
 
 
A comment on the name Zeus. Known as Dias in ancient Greek, and in Mycenaean records 1400 b.c. Dias  was pronounced DI-U-JA (also a month-name DIWIOIOS) in it's early form.


Edited by chicagogeorge - 18-Sep-2007 at 17:31
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Sep-2007 at 11:35
You with your Ancient Sources. Read, and pay attention
__________________
Remeber Jesus Christ or Mery:

As the Church in the Bible, describes Jesus C., or in paints of Churchs in all Italy,
you see Jesus C. with blond hair, blue eyes, tall, clear skin, etc...

As verified today:
Jesus was brown, black/brown eyes, medium height, medium height, etc...
----------------------------

So I showed you that Jesus C. was brown, black/brown eyes,etc.....
and the source you "describe" "trustable source", where is ?
____________________________________________________________

I showed you the similarity between the Pelasgian, Illyrian, Etruscan and Albanian language. As you can see in my posts, the words are the same so as the structure of phrase, between Albanian and the others language.

You posted only something that Homer (it is supposed that Homer wasn't never live too) or Herodotus write in Greek, without link to the context. And so ?

I give you the images with the translation in Albanian and English. I asked you to translate them in Greek, but you never transalted them. Why?
Because you just can't.


Edited by EagleAl - 21-Sep-2007 at 11:40
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  Quote chicagogeorge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Sep-2007 at 11:01
^^
 
 
Unreal. Albanians have a connection to Pelasgian and Illlyrian, and Etruscan. What else will it be?
 
 
Are you forgetting that Albanian is an Indo-European language? Are you forgetting that Etrsucans and Pelasgians have never been identified as occupying the same land as Albanians occupy today, and that most scholars believe that they were Pre Indo-European?
 
Even the Illyrian connection is weak since we know Albanian is a Satem language and Illyrian is Centum.
 
 
Why don't you post your "examples" again. So we can disect the so called evidence further.
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  Quote sunnyspot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Oct-2007 at 08:30
Originally posted by olvios

Or some pre-"cataclysmic" cambrian rodent
 
The Trilobite !
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