Violence in Islam and Christianity: A Comparison

Physical violence is something to protect yourself against through obvious use of counter physical force. Islam is rational. Every action has a reaction to sum it up.

No that is not a hostile act, that is a critique of a religion, and countering that critique through reasonable responses on the academic level is what is sought after in such a situation but not violence. Violence would be unreasonable as you are not under physical threat, such a debate or critique if you will is on an intellectual level and there is a counter to that through intellectual and academic means.

In that situation you should use the idea of "different strokes for different folks," i.e. everyone has a free will in Islam and is able to choose their own path in life. If you are able to counter such criticism reasonably on a academic level you should, if not, do not involve yourself in any manner not benefiting the tenements of a righteous life.

2:256 There is no compulsion in the system;
the proper way has been made clear from
the wrong way. Whoever rejects the
transgressors, and acknowledges God,
has grasped the firm branch that will
never break. God is Hearer, Knower.

109:6 "To you is your system, and to me is
mine."





I am sure Ako will acknowledge that that is the case in Christianity, too.




Edited by es_bih - 27-Aug-2008 at 15:10

Violence in Islam and Christianity

Originally posted by Władysław Warnencz Violence in Islam and Christianity   Earlier this month, two clerics of a world religion were accidentally killed while assembling a bomb inside their house of worship.I won’t tell you which religion, but let’s just say that absolutely no one was surprised...

Władysław,

Maybe this wasn't properly explained the first seven times I said it, so let me be perfectly clear: This sort of nonsense is a disgraceful mockery of what was supposed to be an honest discussion. This thread is not to be used as a vehicle for simplistic criticisms and hateful sarcasm; if you can't participate maturely, leave. This post adds nothing, nothing to the thread, and your quotations from the Quran should be coupled with analysis, not sarcasm. This sort of thing will not be tolerated. We have only recently gotten this thread back on track, and I will not allow you to derail it.

-Akolouthos

Originally posted by Akolouthos Originally posted by Władysław Warnencz Violence in Islam and Christianity   Earlier this month, two clerics of a world religion were accidentally killed while assembling a bomb inside their house of worship.I won’t tell you which religion, but let’s just say that absolutely no one was surprised...      Władysław, Maybe this wasn't properly explained the first seven times I said it, so let me be perfectly clear: This sort of nonsense is a disgraceful mockery of what was supposed to be an honest discussion. This thread is not to be used as a vehicle for simplistic criticisms and hateful sarcasm; if you can't participate maturely, leave. This post adds nothing, nothing to the thread, and your quotations from the Quran should be coupled with analysis, not sarcasm. This sort of thing will not be tolerated. We have only recently gotten this thread back on track, and I will not allow you to derail it. -Akolouthos

Edited by Władysław Warnencz - 28-Aug-2008 at 21:35

Originally posted by Władysław Warnencz Originally posted by Akolouthos Originally posted by Władysław Warnencz Violence in Islam and Christianity   Earlier this month, two clerics of a world religion were accidentally killed while assembling a bomb inside their house of worship.I won’t tell you which religion, but let’s just say that absolutely no one was surprised...      Władysław, Maybe this wasn't properly explained the first seven times I said it, so let me be perfectly clear: This sort of nonsense is a disgraceful mockery of what was supposed to be an honest discussion. This thread is not to be used as a vehicle for simplistic criticisms and hateful sarcasm; if you can't participate maturely, leave. This post adds nothing, nothing to the thread, and your quotations from the Quran should be coupled with analysis, not sarcasm. This sort of thing will not be tolerated. We have only recently gotten this thread back on track, and I will not allow you to derail it. -Akolouthos   Why should this be nonsense?The fact that CLERICS,meaning people who understand and preach a certain religion were making those bombs clearly shows what this religion is teaching.Who understands the religion better than the clerics?You?Me?I think those clerics know best what their religion is teaching and they clearly showed it by prepearing the bombs.Maybe all those pages and pages of writings and thoughts you and others made (and i read them all)are nonsense for those celrics?Maybe things are much more simple and the guys with the bombs keep showing it to us...

Clerics are not an ultimate authority on religion, and they are not perfect. Anyone can claim authority by uttering a few lines and getting a following for their temporal ambitions. If those clerics knew they would not have done any of that in the first place. In my humble opinon I can state that I know more than them on faith. You confuse priestly functions in Christianity and Islam, the latter lacks completely a priestly order, cleric is a wrong word.

Originally posted by Cezar It seems that both Christianity and Islam are, when proper looked upon, peaceful. Violence in the name of the two religions has been commited in the past, and there are a lot of justifications for those events. Now, I don't dissociate a religion from the religious.

A fair analysis.

As far as the question;

In almost any city in the US would be the safest. We have a strong sense of freedom of speech here for all our faults. You can do things like that safely regardless of who is pissed off at it.

In London, too, Paris most likely, I do believe in Zagreb or Sarajevo ( but the gay parade unfortunately got shut down very early due to violence in both capitals).

In theory however and in practice in more rational cities, perhaps like Istanbul you could do that. And when looked at from an Islamic perspective you have complete right to do so. Someone can say that they disagree with you on it, but they have no right to interfere with your God given freedom of choice. It is after all a divine right, and if someone ignorantly so interferes that is a sin committed by him upon you and God, who commanded freedom of choice and belief to humanity. Basically you have all the right to do that in Islam, a Muslim should turn the other cheek on that, he may counter with an argument in a polite fashion befitting Islamic norms on interaction, but not try to stop or defer rights.

2:256 There is no compulsion in religion, for the right way is clearly from the wrong way. Whoever therefore rejects the forces of evil and believes in God, he has taken hold of a support most unfailing, which shall never give way, for God is All Hearing and Knowing.

Freedom of conscience, and extended to freedom of choice as that is also mentioned through out the Qu'ran. Humanity has an ability to choose what path they wish, hence why the concept of Heaven and Hell in the first place.

16:82 But if they turn away from you, (O Prophet remember that) your only duty is a clear delivery of the Message (entrusted to you).

A qoute to the Prophet, and believers in general, you can mention something on faith in a proper manner, but you have no right to infringe on other peoples's rights.

109:6 "To you is your system, and to me is
mine."

4:79, 80 (Say to everyone of them,) 'Whatever good betides you is from God and whatever evil betides you is from your own self and that We have (O Prophet) sent you to mankind only as a messenger and all sufficing is God as witness. Whoso obeys the Messenger, he indeed obeys God. And for those who turn away, We have not sent you as a keeper."
88:21, 22; also see 24:54 And so, (O Prophet!) exhort them your task is only to exhort; you cannot compel them to believe.
39:41 Assuredly, We have sent down the Book to you in right form for the good of man. Whoso guided himself by it does so to his own advantage, and whoso turns away from it does so at his own loss. You certainly are not their keeper.

Your deduction is bs nevertheless, we are talking about theology in this thread not about world events. You also will deduce by studying this further; most of the Islamic world is less educated, and less economically developed than the West. The Balkans are a hit and miss for that matter. In some places you would get drawn and quartered for such display and it would be a 100% Christian. You cannot deduce that Islam is inherently violent or drawn to violence by the fact that some uneducated rabble will try to act violently. That still does not get beyond the proven fact that they are commiting a sin in the Islamic tradition, hence that this act is disasociated with Islam.

You cannot have your cakie and eat it, too, by announcing Islam most violent then opting out for a safe end by saying it is the believers but not the belief because I've consistently proven you wrong on those grounds.

Qouting the Qu'ran is absolutely necessary in this situation since this is a discussion on actual theology of the two faiths, not on the way their adherents behave.

In that case read up on Christians killing Hindus and Hindus burning their homes in return about a few days ago in India.

I would like those interested in participating to cite quotes specifically dealing with violence

I suppose it would be easy to google,yahoo or whatever for violent versus in the Old Testement and the Qu'ran. Genesis

The thing is I do not see Christians or Jews taking these versus to their conclusion like I see with radical Islam. There might be a few fringe groups.

Christianity or Islam both are less violent than the Communist in my opionion but that is for another thread.

Old testement cruelty:
Because God liked Abel's animal sacrifice more than Cain's vegetables, Cain kills his brother Abel in a fit of religious jealousy. 4:8

God is angry. He decides to destroy all humans, beasts, creeping things, fowls, and "all flesh wherein there is breath of life." He plans to drown them all. 6:7, 17

God repeats his intention to kill "every living substance ... from off the face of the earth." But why does God kill all the innocent animals? What had they done to deserve his wrath? It seems God never gets his fill of tormenting animals. 7:4

God drowns everything that breathes air. From newborn babies to koala bears -- all creatures great and small, the Lord God drowned them all. 7:21-23

God sends a plague on the Pharaoh and his household because the Pharaoh believed Abram's lie. 12:17

God tells Abram to kill some animals for him. The needless slaughter makes God feel better. 15:9-10

Hagar conceives, making Sarai jealous. Abram tells Sarai to do to Hagar whatever she wants. "And when Sarai dealt hardly with her, she fled." 16:6

"I will not destroy it for ten's sake."
I guess God couldn't find even ten good Sodomites because he decides to kill them all in Genesis 19. Too bad Abraham didn't ask God about the children. Why not save them? If Abraham could find 10 good children, toddlers, infants, or babies, would God spare the city? Apparently not. God doesn't give a damn about children. 18:32

Lot refuses to give up his angels to the perverted mob, offering his two "virgin daughters" instead. He tells the bunch of angel rapers to "do unto them [his daughters] as is good in your eyes." This is the same man that is called "just" and "righteous" in 2 Peter 2:7-8. 19:7-8

God kills everyone (men, women, children, infants, newborns) in Sodom and Gomorrah by raining "fire and brimstone from the Lord out of heaven." Well, almost everyone -- he spares the "just and righteous" Lot and his family. 19:24

Lot's nameless wife looks back, and God turns her into a pillar of salt. 19:26

God threatens to kill Abimelech and his people for believing Abe's lie. 20:3-7

Sarai tells Abraham to "cast out this bondwoman and her son." God commands him to "hearken unto her voice." So Abraham abandons Hagar and Ishmael, casting them out into the wilderness to die. 21:10-14

God orders Abraham to kill Isaac as a burnt offering. Abraham shows his love for God by his willingness to murder his son. But finally, just before Isaac's throat is slit, God provides a goat to kill instead. 22:2-13

Abraham shows his willingness to kill his son for God. Only an evil God would ask a father to do that; only a bad father would be willing to do it. 22:10

Dinah, the daughter of Jacob, is "defiled" by a man who seems to love her dearly. Her brothers trick all of the men of the town and kill them (after first having them all circumcised), and then take their wives and children captive. 34:1-31

"The terror of God was upon the cities that were round about them." 35:5

"And Er, Judah's firstborn, was wicked in the sight of the Lord; and the Lord slew him." What did Er do to elicit God's wrath? The Bible doesn't say. Maybe he picked up some sticks on Saturday. 38:7

After God killed Er, Judah tells Onan to "go in unto they brother's wife." But "Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and ... when he went in unto his brother's wife ... he spilled it on the ground.... And the thing which he did displeased the Lord; wherefore he slew him also." This lovely Bible story is seldom read in Sunday School, but it is the basis of many Christian doctrines, including the condemnation of both masturbation and birth control. 38:8-10

After Judah pays Tamar for her services, he is told that she "played the harlot" and "is with child by whoredom." When Judah hears this, he says, "Bring her forth, and let her be burnt." 38:24

Joseph interprets the baker's dream. He says that the pharaoh will cut off the baker's head, and hang his headless body on a tree for the birds to eat. 40:19


http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html

Cruelty in the Quran
Those who disbelieve ... will be fuel for Fire.--3:10


Don't bother to warn the disbelievers. Allah has blinded them. Theirs will be an awful doom. 2:6

Allah has sickened their hearts. A painful doom is theirs because they lie. 2:10

A fire has been prepared for the disbelievers, whose fuel is men and stones. 2:24

Disbelievers will be burned with fire. 2:39, 90

"Guard yourselves against a day when no soul will in aught avail another, nor will intercession be accepted from it, nor will compensation be received from it, nor will they be helped."
There will come a day when Allah will refuse all prayers and help no one. 2:48

Allah brags about drowning the Egyptian army. 2:50

"Whosoever hath done evil and his sin surroundeth him; such are rightful owners of the Fire." 2:81

If you believe in only part of the Scripture, you will suffer in this life and go to hell in the next. 2:85

Jews are the greediest of all humankind. They'd like to live 1000 years. But they are going to hell. 2:96

For disbelievers is a painful doom. 2:104

For unbelievers: ignominy in this world, an awful doom in the next. 2:114

"And thou wilt not be asked about the owners of hell-fire." (They are the non-muslims.) 2:119

Allah will leave the disbelievers alone for a while, but then he will compel them to the doom of Fire. 2:126

The doom of the disbelievers will not be lightened. 2:162

Allah is severe punishment! 2:165-6

They will not emerge from the Fire. 2:167

Those who hide the Scripture will have their bellies eaten with fire. Theirs will be a painful doom. 2:174

How constant are they in their strife to reach the Fire! 2:175

"Fight in the way of Allah." 2:190, 2:244

Believers must retaliate. Those who transgress will have a painful doom. 2:178

Kill disbelievers wherever you find them. If they attack you, then kill them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. (But if they desist in their unbelief, then don't kill them.) 2:191-2

"Guard us from the doom of Fire." 2:201

Those who fail in their duty to Allah are proud and sinful. They will all go to hell. 2:206

War is ordained by Allah, and all Muslims must be willing to fight, whether they like it or not. 2:216

Those who die in their disbelief will burn forever in the Fire. 2:217

Those who marry unbelievers will burn in the Fire. 2:221

Disbelievers worship false gods. The will burn forever in the Fire. 2:257

"Those who swallow usury ... are rightful owners of the Fire." 2:275

Those who disbelieve the revelations of Allah, theirs will be a heavy doom. 3:4

Those who disbelieve will be fuel for the Fire. 3:10

Those who disbelieve shall be overcome and gathered unto Hell. 3:12

"Guard us from the punishment of Fire." 3:16

Non-muslims will be punished by Allah for their nonbelief. 3:19

Those who disbelieve, promise them a painful doom. 3:21

"They [Christians and Jews] say: The Fire will not touch us save for a certain number of days. That which they used to invent hath deceived them regarding their religion." (The Fire will burn them forever.) 3:24

Theirs will be a painful doom. 3:77

All non-Muslims will be rejected by Allah after they die. 3:85

Apostates will be cursed by Allah, angels, and men. They will have a painful doom. 3:86-88

Disbelievers will have a painful doom. And they will have no helpers. 3:91

"Ye were upon the brink of an abyss of fire, and He did save you from it." 3:103

Disbelievers will have their faces blackened on the last day. They will face an awful doom. 3:105-6

Those who disbelieve will be burnt in the Fire. 3:116

The Fire is prepared for disbelievers. 3:131

We shall cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Their habitation is the Fire 3:151

If you die fighting for Allah, you'll be rewarded in heaven. 3:157

"Is one who followeth the pleasure of Allah as one who hath earned condemnation from Allah, whose habitation is the Fire?"
Unbelievers will burn forever in the Fire. 3:162

"Think not of those, who are slain in the way of Allah, as dead."
(Quoted by Osama bin Laden in his 'letter to America' regarding the 11 September 2001 attacks.) 3:169-171

Theirs will be an awful doom. 3:176

Disbelievers do not harm Allah, but will have a painful doom. 3:177

Disbelievers will have a shameful doom. 3:178

Whoso is removed from the Fire and is made to enter paradise, he indeed is triumphant." (The rest will burn forever in the Fire.) 3:185

Those who brag about doing good will go to hell. 3:188

"Preserve us from the doom of Fire." 3:191

"Our Lord! Whom Thou causest to enter the Fire: him indeed Thou hast confounded. For evil-doers there will be no helpers." 3:192

Those who die fighting for Allah will go to heaven. 3:195

Disbelievers will go to Hell. 3:196

Don't steal from orphans (or Allah will burn you forever in hell). 4:10

Those who disobey Allah and his messenger will be burnt with fire and suffer a painful doom. 4:14

For the disbelievers and those who make a last-minute conversion, Allah has prepared a painful doom. 4:18

"We shall cast him into Fire, and that is ever easy for Allah." 4:30

For disbelievers, We prepare a shameful doom. 4:37

"Sanction is given unto those who fight because they have been wronged."
Quoted by Osama bin Laden in his 'letter to America' as a justification for the 11 September 2001 attacks. 4:39

Hell is sufficient for their burning. 4:55

Unbelievers will be tormented forever with fire. When their skin is burned off, a fresh skin will be provided. 4:56

Allah will bestow a vast reward on those who fight in religious wars. 4:74

Believers fight for Allah; disbelievers fight for the devil. So fight the minions of the devil. 4:76

Have no unbelieving friends. Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them. 4:89

If the unbelievers do not offer you peace, kill them wherever you find them. Against such you are given clear warrant. 4:91

Believers who kill believers will face the awful doom of hell. 4:93

"Their habitation will be hell, an evil journey's end." 4:97

Those who oppose the messenger and become unbelievers will go to hell. 4:115

Allah will lead them astray and they will go to hell. 4:119-121

Those who believe, then disbelieve, then believe and disbelieve again will never be forgiven by Allah. 4:137

For the hypocrites there will be a painful doom. 4:138

Allah will gather hypocrites and disbelievers into hell. 4:140

The hypocrites will be in the lowest part of hell and no one will help them there. 4:145

You must believe everything Allah and his messengers tell you. Those who don't are disbelievers and will face a painful doom. 4:150-151

For the wrongdoing Jews, Allah has prepared a painful doom. 4:160-1

God will guide disbelievers down a road that leads to everlasting hell. 4:168-169

If you don't do good works, Allah will punish you with a painful doom. 4:173

Those who deny Islam will be losers in the Hereafter. 5:5

Disbelievers are the rightful owners of Hell. 5:10

"The owners of the fire. That is the reward of evil-doers." 5:29

Those who make war with Allah and his messenger will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. That is how they will be treated in this world, and in the next they will have an awful doom. 5:33

Disbelievers will have a painful doom. 5:36

Disbelievers will want to come out of the Fire, but will not. Their will be a lasting doom. 5:37

Cut off the hands of thieves. It is an exemplary punishment from Allah. 5:38

Allah makes some people sin. He will not cleanse their hearts. They will have ignominy in this world, and in the Hereafter an awful doom. 5:41

Life for life, eye for eye, nose for nose, ear for ear, and tooth for tooth. 5:45

Christians will be burned in the Fire. 5:72

Christians are wrong about the Trinity. For that they will have a painful doom. 5:73

Muslims that make friends with disbelievers will face a doom prepared for them by Allah. 5:80

Disbelievers will be owners of hell-fire. 5:86

Allah will test believers to see if they are afraid. Those who fail a second test will suffer a a painful doom. 5:94

After agreeing to send down a table of food from heaven, Jesus warns his disciples that will catch holy hell if they ever stop believing. 5:115

Those who deny the truth of Islam will be punished by Allah. 6:5

"See the nature of the consequence for the rejecters!" 6:11

Many generations have been destroyed by Allah. 6:6

Disbelievers will say when they see the Fire that they would have believed if they had known the truth. But they are all liars. 6:27-28

"Evil-doers flout the revelations of Allah." 6:33

Allah will torment those how deny his revelations. 6:49

Those who disbelieve will be forced to drink boiling water, and will face a painful doom. 6:70

When nonbelievers die, the angels will deliver to them doom and degradation. 6:93

Allah allows some to disbelieve in the afterlife, and to take pleasure in their disbelief, so that he can torment them forever after they die. 6:113

Allah chooses to lead some astray, and he lays ignominy on those who disbelieve. 6:125

Allah will send everyone the Fire, except those he chooses to deliver. 6:128

Let the idolaters kill their children. It is Allah's will. 6:137

The worst thing anyone can do is deny the revelations of Allah. Those who do so will be awared an evil doom. 6:157

How many a township have We destroyed! As a raid by night, or while they slept at noon, Our terror came unto them. 7:4-5

Allah banishes Iblis and promises to fill hell with those who are mislead by him. 7:18

Disbelievers are the rightful owners of the Fire. 7:36

Entire nations have entered the Fire. Some get a double torment. 7:38

"Taste the doom for what ye used to earn." 7:39

Disbelievers will be excluded from heaven. Theirs will be a bed of hell. 7:40-41

Those in the fire will be taunted by those in the Garden. "So how's it going down there? Are you enjoying the warmth of the Fire?" 7:44

Those in the Garden will plead with Allah not to be cast into the Fire. 7:47

Those in the Fire will cry out to those in heaven, saying: "Pour water on us." But Allah has forbidden that to disbelievers. 7:50

Allah drowned everyone on earth (except Noah and his family) because they disbelieved. 7:64

Those who believe incorrectly will face the terror and wrath of Allah. 7:71

"We cut the root of those who denied Our revelations and were not believers." 7:72

Allah killed the disbelievers with an earthquake. 7:78

Allah killed everyone in Sodom and Gomorrah except Lot and his daughters.
7:83-84

"So the earthquake seized them."
Allah killed the disbelievers with an earthquake. 7:90-91

"How can I sorrow for a people that rejected (truth)?"
Shu'eyb tells the Allah's victims that they deserved to die for rejecting Islam. 7:93

"Then We seized them unawares, when they perceived not."
Unbelievers are never safe from Allah's wrath. 7:95-99

"We straitened Pharaoh's folk with famine."
Allah sent a famine on all of the Egyptians to punish Pharaoh. 7:130

"So We sent against them the flood and the locusts and the vermin and the frogs and the blood - a succession of clear signs." 7:133

"We drowned them in the sea: because they denied Our revelations." 7:136

Those who worship the calf will suffer terror and humiliation from Allah. 7:152

"But those of them who ... changed the word ... We sent down upon them wrath from heaven." 7:162

"Why preach ye to a folk whom Allah is about to destroy or punish with an awful doom?" 7:164

"When they forgot that whereof they had been reminded, We ... visited [them] with dreadful punishment." 7:165

Allah will punish the disbelieving Jews until the Day of Resurrection. 7:167

Allah has already sent many people and jinn to hell. They were worse than cows: they couldn't see or hear and were neglectful. 7:179

"Allah ... cut the root of the disbelievers."
Allah destroyed the unbelievers. 8:7

Allah will throw fear into the hearts of the disbelievers, and smite their necks and fingers

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/cruelty/long.html

Edited by eaglecap - 29-Aug-2008 at 23:30

Originally posted by Count Belisarius Originally posted by eaglecap I would like those interested in participating to cite quotes specifically dealing with violence I suppose it would be easy to google,yahoo or whatever for violent versus in the Old Testement and the Qu'ran. Genesis The thing is I do not see Christians or Jews taking these versus to their conclusion like I see with radical Islam. There might be a few fringe groups. Christianity or Islam both are less violent than the Communist in my opionion but that is for another thread. Old testement cruelty: Because God liked Abel's animal sacrifice more than Cain's vegetables, Cain kills his brother Abel in a fit of religious jealousy. 4:8  It doesn't say that it was out of religous jealousy and besides Cain chose of his own free will to kill AbelGod is angry. He decides to destroy all humans, beasts, creeping things, fowls, and "all flesh wherein there is breath of life." He plans to drown them all. 6:7, 17 Well if you believe in Angel's, around that time Noah and his family were probably the only people that were still human and Gdo told him to bring animal's on to the Ark and he promised Noah he wouldnever do that againGod repeats his intention to kill "every living substance ... from off the face of the earth." But why does God kill all the innocent animals? What had they done to deserve his wrath? It seems God never gets his fill of tormenting animals. 7:4 Again God told Noah to bring animal's on to the Ark and he promised that he would never do that again God drowns everything that breathes air. From newborn babies to koala bears -- all creatures great and small, the Lord God drowned them all. 7:21-23 See above besides there wasn't one rightous man among them, do you wan't a society of evil criminal's to liveGod sends a plague on the Pharaoh and his household because the Pharaoh believed Abram's lie. 12:17 What lie?God tells Abram to kill some animals for him. The needless slaughter makes God feel better. 15:9-10 It symbolized forgivenessHagar conceives, making Sarai jealous. Abram tells Sarai to do to Hagar whatever she wants. "And when Sarai dealt hardly with her, she fled." 16:6 Well that say's more about Sarai than it does about God "I will not destroy it for ten's sake." I guess God couldn't find even ten good Sodomites because he decides to kill them all in Genesis 19. Too bad Abraham didn't ask God about the children. Why not save them? If Abraham could find 10 good children, toddlers, infants, or babies, would God spare the city? Apparently not. God doesn't give a damn about children. 18:32 Read the new testament besides mabye the people Gdo was talking about were baby's, suppose one of the reason's God wanted to destroy the city's was because they killed their own children    Lot refuses to give up his angels to the perverted mob, offering his two "virgin daughters" instead. He tells the bunch of angel rapers to "do unto them [his daughters] as is good in your eyes." This is the same man that is called "just" and "righteous" in 2 Peter 2:7-8. 19:7-8 His angel's????? and I don't recall him giving his daughter's to the mob and even if he did that say's more about Lot than it does God God kills everyone (men, women, children, infants, newborns) in Sodom and Gonmorrah by raining "fire and brimstone from the Lord out of heaven." Well, almost everyone -- he spares the "just and righteous" Lot and his family. 19:24 Would you prefer he let the evil people live?Lot's nameless wife looks back, and God turns her into a pillar of salt. 19:26 He did warn themGod threatens to kill Abimelech and his people for believing Abe's lie. 20:3-7 What lie???????Sarai tells Abraham to "cast out this bondwoman and her son." God commands him to "hearken unto her voice." So Abraham abandons Hagar and Ishmael, casting them out into the wilderness to die. 21:10-14 And God provided for themGod orders Abraham to kill Isaac as a burnt offering. Abraham shows his love for God by his willingness to murder his son. But finally, just before Isaac's throat is slit, God provides a goat to kill instead. 22:2-13 It was test of his faith and his son willingly wentAbraham shows his willingness to kill his son for God. Only an evil God would ask a father to do that; only a bad father would be willing to do it. 22:10 See aboveDinah, the daughter of Jacob, is "defiled" by a man who seems to love her dearly. Her brothers trick all of the men of the town and kill them (after first having them all circumcised), and then take their wives and children captive. 34:1-31 Well wouldn't you want to kill someone who raped your sister?? besides they choose to do it of their own free will that say's more about thme than does about God and they didn't do it in God's name "The terror of God was upon the cities that were round about them." 35:5 What city's??"And Er, Judah's firstborn, was wicked in the sight of the Lord; and the Lord slew him." What did Er do to elicit God's wrath? The Bible doesn't say. Maybe he picked up some sticks on Saturday. 38:7 Mabye you shouldn't jump to conclusionsAfter God killed Er, Judah tells Onan to "go in unto they brother's wife." But "Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and ... when he went in unto his brother's wife ... he spilled it on the ground.... And the thing which he did displeased the Lord; wherefore he slew him also." This lovely Bible story is seldom read in Sunday School, but it is the basis of many Christian doctrines, including the condemnation of both masturbation and birth control. 38:8-10 He was with a woman how is that masturbation??After Judah pays Tamar for her services, he is told that she "played the harlot" and "is with child by whoredom." When Judah hears this, he says, "Bring her forth, and let her be burnt." 38:24 That's his problem not God's God didn't make him do that  Joseph interprets the baker's dream. He says that the pharaoh will cut off the baker's head, and hang his headless body on a tree for the birds to eat. 40:19 That has nothing to do with God, that's the pharoah's choice   You do realize that all those verse's are from before christianity???? back then most of those people were jew's. The thread is about islam and Christianity not islam and jewish belief's.       http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html

Yes, but the old Testement is part of Christianity and you cannot seperate it. The Christians do not follow the law but they use the Torah as an example of faith. It is hard to understand the violence in the Old Testement and I am sure it has caused many Christians to doubt their faith and God.

I have seen some try to use new Testement versus but often they failed to understand what Christ was saying and maybe the same could be said about the Qu'ran and Torah.