Ancient Maced&#111;nian language

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Topic: Ancient Macedonian language
Posted: 07-Jul-2006 at 12:18

Perseas, please could you translate in english the meaning of the macedonian words, and that of the doric words you provided?

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Posted: 07-Jul-2006 at 12:29

Originally posted by Flipper

One more question cause we never got answers to the fundamental questions.

Who were the Dorians according to you bg_turk? I don't necessaraly expect that you to know more than their name, but take a look around and let us know what you've found.

Filipper are you seriously believe that we may find an answer for such a serious question in this forum?

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Posted: 07-Jul-2006 at 12:30

Originally posted by Arbλr Z

I think I was misunderstood.

First, I never mentioned any illyrian theory

Second, I just supposed that languages developing near to each other could mutually be influenced.

And third, since the oldest linguistic references related to greek that we have, are maximally from the V century B.C, I supposed that before this language could be different, even though close.Regarding the dorians, I thought that their language was referred as greek centuries after they settled in hellenic areas. The point is that ancient greek, illyrian, macedonian, thracian etc didnt exist forever.They developed from something, and that something cannot be still greek.

Regarding the macedonian language (before V century), it could be kin to greek, as portuguese to french. Very probably there was a common substratum for all this ancient balkan languages. This is just a hypothesis. It would be helpful if we knew more about the Spoken Macedonian and its grammar.

Greek is a proto-indo-european language having common roots with the Armenian/Phrygian language. We don't know much about the Phoenician language but since there's a connection between Greeks and Phoenicians through their neolithic ancestors, they should have common linguistic roots as well.

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Posted: 07-Jul-2006 at 12:34

Originally posted by Anton

Filipper are you seriously believe that we may find an answer for such a serious question in this forum?

Haha, it depends Anton...It depends...If someone want to find an answer he will. If not this will remain an unanswered question. Seriously, it is not hard to find information about it. Even a general encyclopedia has information about it.

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akritas

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Posted: 07-Jul-2006 at 13:25

Relatively few words of the Macedonian dialect have been preservedabout 154 as i said and they are recorded by Athenaeus and in the Lexicon of Hesychios, who drew them mainly from the work of the Macedonian lexicographer Amerias. I want be should noted that ancient lexicographers did not record all the words of a language or dialect, but only those that presented a certain peculiarity or difficulty in comprehension. For this reason foreign words and idioms are recorded, and thus the proportion of foreign words is not representative of the total vocabulary of the Macedonian dialect. Many of the words which have been treasured as Macedonian occur in all Greek dialects, but in the Macedonian dialect they had a specific meaning and they were recorded by the ancient lexicographers, for example the word υπασπιστής (adjutant).

These words that were handed down as Macedonian do not bear any resemblance to the Thracian-Illyrian language. The Macedonian linguistic material (proper names, place-names and common nouns) testifies to the Greek character of the Macedonian dialect in my opinion because of :

The etymology of the words is Greek
the features and vowel changes are common in Greek and
so are the inflections and endings.

As for the few words which are recorded as Macedonian in the Lexicon of Hesyxhios and which are not considered by some to be Greek, it is most likely that they are loan-words, a phenomenon that is observed in all languages, and one which does not put their origin in doubt.

Also there are another 200 words that found in several inscriptions (Posidipus,Pella katadaesmos,Dervinion ppayrus e.t..c) except of course those that recorded from the ancient writers(about 154) that has the same chareacteristiscs.

Originally posted by bg_turk

Rather than costantly judging me, wouldn't you be better off explaining why I am wrong? Is it not true that very little remains of the Thracian as well of the Macedonian languages? Where did I err in saying that?

The fact that no written documents in Macedonian dialect have been preserved does not prove their non-Greek origin, as some mebers claim. Indeed, no dialectal inscriptions or even a phrase of a dialectal Macedonian text have been found. All the inscriptions found in Macedonia date after the 5th c. B.C., when the Macedonians used, at least in public life, theirs dialect.

However, in other regions of Greece, undisputedly Greek, no preserved written documents of the 7th or even 6th c. B.C. have been found either.

The cultural phenomenon of Athens cannot be regarded as a means of comparison with other regions, especially in order to draw conclusions concerning the national origin of their inhabitants. That's why Athenian policy was agreesive against Macedonians, because the culture rebelion.

Edited by akritas - 07-Jul-2006 at 13:35

akritas

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Posted: 07-Jul-2006 at 14:06

Originally posted by Arb�r Z

I appreciate the posts and the work of akritas, as well as the info provided also from other members.

Now regarding the issue

1-st Ancient Macedonian was not related to slavic

2-nd it was an old balkanic language

That is what we know for sure

Now this is what I suppose

In the times of Alexander (and probably since the V century BC) IMO macedonia went through a process of hellenization. This happened because of the greek states were increasing their military, economical and cultural influence. The ruling class started to keep a hellenic education and culture, and this spread slowly (or fastly).

This is supported also from the info provided by Akritas and others

What was before this?

Ancient macedonian, before becaming a Greek dialect should have been a language near to the archaic greek, as well as to the illyrian and thracian. The pelasgian substrata should still have been strong in these languages, and they shared this common characteristic. Being in continuous contact with eachother this languages might have been related (Archaic greek, macedonian, illyrian, thracian - before the VIII century).

Another problem that I perceive here is the fact that we try to understand the political/military gesta and speach of that time in terms of modern mentality. We should keep in mind that in that time it didnt exist such a thing as greek (or macedonian) nationalism.

The known ancient script-language (not dialects) in the Hellenic peninsula were the Illyrian, Greek, Roman and Thracian. There is and the Pelsgian and some others scripts in the islands but is not C& V alphabete.

In the Illyrian and Thracian sripts we have found letters and characters that's not comply in the Macedonian language.
http://members.tripod.com/babaev/tree/illyrian.html
http://members.tripod.com/~Groznijat/thrac/thrac_1.html

In the Macedonian inscriptions all have Greek letters and meaning and of course decephered and non of them Illyrian or Thracian.

Edited by akritas - 07-Jul-2006 at 14:11

Arb�r Z

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Posted: 07-Jul-2006 at 17:24

What is the meaning of the term"script-language"?

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Posted: 07-Jul-2006 at 19:37

Akritas, if you have 154 words from let us say 10 000 from one language and 34 from 10000 of another what is te possibility that they will coincide if they are similar? This is just a remark that it is difficult to make such conclusions from this amount of data.

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Posted: 07-Jul-2006 at 19:41

And, akritas, you always forget to mention that linguistic analysis proposes also other origins of Macedonian language apart from greek. Some of them are

a Greek dialect mixed with Illyrian languages or the Thracian language, suggested by Kretschmer (1896) and E. Schwyzer (1959)

a Greek dialect with a non-Indo-European substratal influence, suggested by M. Sakellariou (1983)

an Illyrian dialect mixed with Greek (suggested by K. O. M�ller (1825) and by G. Bonfante 1987)

an independent Indo-European language close to Greek, Thracian and Phrygian languages, suggested by I. I. Russu (1938) and A. Meillet (1965)

More on this here http://www.answers.com/topic/ancient-macedonian-language

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Posted: 07-Jul-2006 at 19:59

And this clear indication that Macedonian is close to Dorian is sometime doubtfull (at least in those words I found). For example

ἄβαγνα бbagna 'roses' (Hes. Attic ῥόδα; perhaps Doric ἀβός abуs 'young, luxuriant' + ἁγνός hagnуs 'pure, chaste, unsullied')^{[citation needed]}

^{Well, rose might mean luxuriant and pure but might not. Thus in this case we observe only similarity in sound but not meaning.}

ἀβαρύ abarэ 'oregano' (Hes. ὀρίγανον orнganon, perhaps Attic prefix α a 'not' + βαρύ barэ 'heavy')

This perhaps is also very surprising for me. Well, oregano is indeed not heavy but again this is just a proposition but not clear indication that word is Attic. Doric words are not posted here unfortunately.

ἀκρουνοί akrounoн 'boundary stones' nom. pl. (Hes. ὃροι hуroi, LSJ Attic ἄκρος бkros 'at the end or extremity', from ἀκή akē 'point, edge', PIE *ak 'summit, point' or 'sharp')

This meanings are rather close in boith languages indeed. This is more convincing, but still there is a difference in meanings.

ἄλιζα бliza (also alixa) 'alder' (Hes. Attic λεύκη leъkē 'poplar', perhaps Pokorny Attic ἐλάτη elбtē 'fir, spruce', PIE *ol-, *el-)

How "aliza" became "elate" I donдt know. Probably linguists may explain better but here I dont see any common root.

ἀργιόπους argiуpous 'eagle' (LSJ Attic ἀργίπους argнpous 'swift- or white-footed', PIE *hrg'i-pods < PIE *arg + PIE *ped)

Well, argiopus is similar to argipous but how eagle became swift and white footed?

γράβιον grбbion 'torch' (PIE *grabh-, 'hornbeam', Umbrian Grabovius an oak-god, etymologically linked by LSJ and Pokorny to Attic κράβ(β)ατος krбb(b)atos 'couch, bed', Latin grabātus - which LSJ derives from Macedonian - hence modern Greek κρεβάτι krevбti 'bed')

I meditated all the night trying to understand how torch and bed could have same meaning but failed.

ἴλαξ нlax 'the holm-oak, evergreen or scarlet oak' (Hes. Attic πρῖνος prоnos, Latin ilex)

Well if you explain me how ilax became pronos I will owe you raki.

Dont get me wrong, I claim that there is a lot of greek words in this list indeed. I just show that some times clear indication is not that clear (at least for me). And again, in most cases in this list, comparisons are given to Attic dialect but not to Doric. If I found doric one I will post it here as well. This list I found in the link I posted before.

Edited by Anton - 07-Jul-2006 at 20:23

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Posted: 07-Jul-2006 at 20:22

And final remark. Some of Macedonian words could be indeed borrowed by Attic or Dorian dialcts of greek language. This could be some war terminology after Alexander's campaigns. Which is obvious, they were somewhat very impressive for that time. For example this one

ἐταῖροι eta�roi 'comrades' nom. pl. (Attic ἑταῖροι heta�roi, PIE *swe-t-aro < suffixed form of *swe)

This is just a speculation, of course.

So, ideally it would be good to prove that words common for both languages (or dialects if you prefer) did not appear after Alexanders time, but I understand that this remark is just a bulgarian nationalism

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Posted: 07-Jul-2006 at 21:12

Perseas, thank you for your rather exhaustive post, apparently you are very knowledgeable about the issue but let me express my humble objections.

First of all as you yourself quoted:

Since so little is known about the early Macedonians, it is hardly strange that in both ancient and modern times there has been much disagreement on their ethnic identity.

the issue about the Macedonian language is very controversial, but in your post you have made it seem as if Greek origins of the Macedonian language are a settled issue among historians which you know is not the truth. I think your post would have been stronger and more pursuasive if you'd included the evidence that does not support your thesis as well, instead of ignoring it. For one I would be interested to hear how your interpret the episode of Philotas' trial that was mentioned above.

Second,

As we see from the map, there are no Dorian speaking tribes, neighbouring Macedonia. Particularly, Sparta and Argos lie at the head of the Peloponnese, far away from Macedonia, in southern Greece. Ancient Macedonians and Dorians had no contacts but nevertheless they shared an extensive number of common words and they both shared three month's names, including Apellaios, the holliest month of Dorians. How is that so?

The only explanation is the one pointed out by the ancient historians, and saying that Macedonians were of Dorian origin, therefore they spoke Dorian. (In brief, Herodotos claimed that the Macedonians who descended to southern Greece after crossing Doris became known as Dorians)

Rather bizarly this "only" explanation agrees with your thesis that Macedonian is a dialect of Greek.
The relationship between Dorian and Macedonian is necessary condition for you to be able to prove Macedonian is Greek, but unfortunately not sufficient condition for the proof. For there exist other possibilities that also explain the observed relationship between the two languages, one of which is also endorsed by Borza. As you yourself mention Macedonian tribes settled in the South and they might have injected some of their vocabulary into Dorian, so the common words are not necessarily of Dorian origin as you claim, but could be of Macedonian origin as well.

To illustrate my thought as to why I disagree wit your logic that common words, names, etc are a proof of the Greekness of Macedonian, let me give a modern example with Bulgarian for isntance. Bulgarian does have many words borrowed from Greek (kokal, mutra, mutsuna, etc...), and many of the Bulgairan place and person names are closely related or corruptions of their Greek equivlanets (Yoan(Ivan)->Yiannis, Plovidiv -> Filipopolis). If one were to apply the same logic in which you prove the Greek origin of the Macedonian language, then one would invariably reach the conclusion that Bulgarian is Greek which is certainly wrong, so your logic must be fallacious.

Edited by bg_turk - 07-Jul-2006 at 21:17

akritas

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Posted: 08-Jul-2006 at 03:00

Anton

I am not saying that the Macedonian language didn�t have and other words. Today the Greek language has also Turkish or Albanian words. This is not mean that is Turkish or Albanian. The same goes of course and for the Macedonian.

Your mentioned writers have a common element in theirs works. They forget to mention the Grammar and the Pronunciation. In order to define where the language belong are not only the words but also the elements that I mentioned.

In your question as ilax is known that only the Greek alphabete has the letter ks(ξ) as also and the inflection and ending.The ilax did not become prounos.Today we use the word velanidia for the oak .

The 154 words are the words that recorded from the ancient writers and not those that found in the inscriptions (200 more). The majority are part of the Greek syntaxis sentences.

You speak for Illyrian and Thracian languages when is known that we know little thinks for them.For the Macedonian language we have more data because the inscriptions.

Edited by akritas - 08-Jul-2006 at 03:01

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Posted: 08-Jul-2006 at 03:07

Originally posted by Arbλr Z

What is the meaning of the term"script-language"?

Is the Writing(word,letters,symbols)

As you know language is a communication of spoken and written sources.In this case and because we have a dead spoken language we use only the written sources that proove all my mentioned posts(my opinion).

Edited by akritas - 08-Jul-2006 at 03:16

Anton

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Posted: 08-Jul-2006 at 06:58

Originally posted by akritas

Anton

The 154 words are the words that recorded from the ancient writers and not those that found in the inscriptions (200 more). The majority are part of the Greek syntaxis sentences.

You speak for Illyrian and Thracian languages when is known that we know little thinks for them.For the Macedonian language we have more data because the inscriptions.

Akritas, I agree with all that you posted. Thing I wanted to mention is that one should be very accurate when using linguistic trying to prove something. This means, to my opinion, that you should concider only those words that have common root and same meaning. Other words could be used when you have more strong evidences to support your idea and try to understand, for example, which dialect of Greek is Macedonian language more close to. So, I think if we take a look at all words known and compare them to greek languages we will find less than 134/154 exactly the same (common roots and meaning) words. That is why I was searching list of all Macedonian words but couldn't find in the internet.

Grammatic in this case might be more convincing but what we know about that of surrounding nations at that time? Nothing unfortunately. We can compare it to greek grammatics but cannot compare to thracian or illirian

grammatics.

Edited by Anton - 08-Jul-2006 at 07:14

akritas

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Posted: 08-Jul-2006 at 07:34

The known number of the 154 words is work of Otto Hoffman. Greek Hatzidakis and French Kalleris add some very intresting thinks as about these words.Hammond in his book "History of Macedonia" at the Vol 2, mention also a lot of the ancient Macedonian language as also of course and the words. The rest of the words (in the inscriptions) have published through academaic journals.You need time and a lot of work to doing. The most recently is this from Pella katadesmos that can find in the internet.

Edited by akritas - 08-Jul-2006 at 07:42

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Posted: 08-Jul-2006 at 07:36

santoria =salvation
zereuron = precipice
arkon = plain
dvraj = The spleen
danon = death
sarisa = spear
amalos = soft
indea = midday
leykanih = neck
lisson = flat
leion = stick

A mathematician is a person who thinks that if there are supposed to be three people in a room, but five come out, then two more must enter the room in order for it to be empty.

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Posted: 08-Jul-2006 at 13:27

Bg_turk,

As far as the Philotas trial, Philotas says that using the Koine would make his speech "easier to understand", indicating that the Macedonian dialect was not incomprehensible to the non-Macedonians but a bit more difficult to understand. In fact, the whole incident shows the Macedonian dialect was not that different from the Koine and could be understood eventhough it had some difficulty by other Greeks. This also explains the quick disappearance of the Macedonian dialect and the quick adoption of the Koine from Macedonians.

Your example about Bulgarians if anything proves the opposite of your assertion. Evenif its not the best thing to use modern examples for discussions about antiquity, Bulgarians lets say that "bulgarized" the names of existing cities that had greek names. Thats not the case with ancient Macedonia. The toponyms including the cities macedonians built, are not "corruptions of their Greek equivalents" but are greek and moreover have a full meaning in greek. Furthermore think on your own, did all the new cities built by Bulgarians had greek names?? The answer is No. Why would Bulgarians use names of a foreign language and not using from their own native language?

Ask yourself now the same question about ancient Macedonians. Why would they use toponyms in the cities they built from a foreign language?It doesnt make sense. The same case exists with personal names. While as you say Bulgarians in some cases, formed, sounding close to their language personal names, such as the original name Yiannis to Yoan(Ivan), Macedonian personal names again reveal that their dialect was a greek one. Their names in their vast majority arent only greek but have again full meaning in greek language. The latter doesnt exist with foreign names such as ancient Persian or even closer to Greece, ie Illyrian names.

Your hypothesis of "interaction" of Macedonians with the Dorians is just a red-herring. One can easily surmise that the Macedonians were Dorians. I see none of the ancient historians suggesting that Dorians injected anything from Macedonians but rather the opposite. Since you mentioned Borza, many of his assertions are unsubstantiated. His favourite habbit is to get out of difficulties by suggesting that the Macedonians were hellenized before Philip II and Alexander but he suggests no particular mechanism of hellenization. He is flatly contradicted by Hammond and the other historians who show the unique elements in the hellenic character of Macedonians.

A mathematician is a person who thinks that if there are supposed to be three people in a room, but five come out, then two more must enter the room in order for it to be empty.

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Posted: 08-Jul-2006 at 13:44

Originally posted by Perseas

As far as the Philotas trial, Philotas says that using the Koine would make his speech "easier to understand", indicating that the Macedonian dialect was not incomprehensible to the non-Macedonians but a bit more difficult to understand. In fact, the whole incident shows the Macedonian dialect was not that different from the Koine and could be understood eventhough it had some difficulty by other Greeks. This also explains the quick disappearance of the Macedonian dialect and the quick adoption of the Koine from Macedonians.

If I reject the kapetanopulos thesis that explain simply where are the Curtius exaggerations I want also to add one more think as about your thaught.

Thucydides mention in his Histories(3-112)

At dawn he fell upon the Ambraciots while they were still abed, ignorant of what had passed, and fully thinking that it was their own countrymen�Demosthenes having purposely put the Messenians in front with orders to address them in the Doric dialect, and thus to inspire confidence in the sentinels, who would not be able to see them as it was still night.

As clear can see Thucydides make a dialect segeretion and point out the incomprehensible between two Greek tribes.

Edited by akritas - 08-Jul-2006 at 13:48

Arb�r Z