Should the Kurds be given independence?

Originally posted by The Hidden Face As for the topic. � � If It gives the Kurdish people healthy life. If It makes their conditions better. Why not? But does it really? � � The first post in this thread looks wonderful indeed. Secular-Minded Kurds in Democratic Kurdistan in the Middle east.�Just like what the Turkish politician Mehmet Agar says: It wouldn't actually be a problem for Turkey If a secular and democratic Kurdistan�existed�between Turkey and the Middle east. And Turkey would be the first to help and protect such a country from the Arabs and the Iranians. In fact If you look at the region with a neutral perspective you see that It's Turkey again that helps Northern Iraq to improve the conditions. � However... � Democracy. Human Rights. Secularism etc. These things are for highly advanced socities. We all know the Kurdish people are very poor agricultural people who live in their feodal conditions. Therefore before talking about a Kurdish state. Let's talk about the problems of the Kurdish people. Let's talk about Kurdish tribal life style. The clan system. The Honour killings. The marriage system called Berdel. And so on. � What I want to say is that let's talk about the real problems of the people.

Pure comedy gold or just the blatant chauvinism of a charlatan?! Thank you for demonstrating your astute ignorance. Maybe rural Kurds in Turkey are in such a primitive state, but that is hardly surprising and does not say a lot.

You obviously do not know the first thing about Iraqi Kurds, they practice "Democracy. Human Rights. Secularism etc." better than any society in the Middle East and are a highly educated people - this is a fact, look at the rest of Iraq, tearing itself apart, Kurdistan is the only stable and prosperous part with full democracy and minority rights. I met Kurdish professors on an exchange to Glasgow University from Salahadin University in Suleymaniye, Kurdistan and I know many Iraqi Kurdish doctors, engineers, ex-(Iraqi)military etc.

I am also a Kurd and come from a highly educated, secular and famous family. So your comments were particularly amusing to me.

The only state and people such a Kurdish state would have to fear are Turks... Afterall, haven't you amassed 250,000 troops poised for invasion at their border should they declare independence and don't your politicians consistently threaten them? Iran and Arabs do no such thing. The verbal treatment of Kurds in Turkey by extremists and chauvinists is reminiscent of Serb treatment of Bosnians - always downplaying them, insulting them, their sensibilities and culture.

Interesting reply. Zagros.

Honour killings is not a Kurdish tradtion. It occurs in many parts of the world. Stop labeling it as Kurdish.

Originally posted by Zagros Honour killings?

http://www.un-instraw.org/revista/hypermail/alltickers/fr/0790.html

Newroz is a Kurdish tradition. We have our specific clothing, that is our tradition. We have special music.

Cent. As a universal rule. Middle-aged agricultural traditions are generally awful and must be reformised. The main problem of the Middle east is this anyway. They still live in their middle ages which looks "the hell on earth". 

Originally posted by The Hidden Face Originally posted by Zagros Honour killings? � Originally posted by Zagros A Kurdish tradition? � "This comes from our ancestors," said Mehmet Yolac, claiming Honor killings as a Kurdish tradition as he ironed a pair of pants in his tailoring shop in the largely Kurdish Istanbul neighbourhood of Esentepe. He added proudly: "We're passionate about our Honor." � Originally posted by Zagros I have ever even heard mention of such a ridiculous thing � � Nebahat Akkoc, a Kurdish woman who founded the Ka-Mer women's centre headquartered in Diyarbakir, Turkey's largest Kurdish-majority city, said it would take time to change attitudes toward Honor killings.       "The laws changed fast here," she said. "The problem is that efforts to change the mentality have been very insufficient." � http://www.un-instraw.org/revista/hypermail/alltickers/fr/0790.html � Same in Turkish: � http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/gundem/5308397.asp � The Kurds in Turkey say that It's a Kurdish tradition because they know perfectly well that there's no such problem in this fu.king western part of�Turkey. Sure there's nothing special with Kurds. It's a�middle-aged.�feodal and�agricultural tradition appers amongst feodal and agricultural�socities. � Guys. Have you ever heard of the tradition called Berdel. Or is it again just a bad joke of our Turkish citizen Kurds. � Leonidas. That's the point I wanted to point out. The Kurds won't start of with high level of human rights. democracy and industrilization either. So for a long time we can't expect Northern Iraq to be a full democractic and liberal Kurdistan in where secular Kurds live. � There're huge social and cultural problems to which Kurds must find a solution. And They will. But It takes time. Democracy doesn't work on�a feodal clan system. Guys. This is the ridiculous thing.�Mesut Barzani is the leader of the Barzani tribe. What are we talking about? Just look at the history of the Barzanis. � �

These honour killings must be something specific to Kurds who used to be in the Ottoman sphere because I have never heard of it among Iranian Kurds, nevermind it being a tradition. There was a case a few years ago where a religious nut from central Iran decapitated his daughter after she was raped by her uncle (he was tried and hanged btw), so it is a phenomenon among religious ISlamic fanatics, in actual fact.

Just because some deluded nut says it is a Kurdish tradition it doesn't mean that it is. I have seen a picture of Turkish soldiers who had decapitated Kurds and were proudly holding theirheads up for the picture, I have also seen a video of a Kurd being violently beaten by Turkish members of public for political reasons. Can we call these things Turkish traditions? I am sure those thugs would and the Gray Wolves would condone it, since they like to kill and threaten people for voicing views and opinions.

Now, that was a nice digression from the real issue here, hidden face, can we get back to the real political issues of this thread?

Thanks.

Originally posted by Feanor It's more popular among Kurds rather than Turks, you're right, but it is because of their social status, not ethnicity.

Edited by AyKurt - 12-Feb-2007 at 14:43

Honour Killing is not a Kurdish tradition, it exists in other societies.

There is a problem with land ownership, powerfull land owners/barons "Aghas". Then there are tribal and clandestine codes and rules, if broken the punishment can be severe. Kurdish clans have their "Tore", Turkish clans although there are not as many anymore in Turkey also have theri own "Tore".

It has nothing to do with religion, these are old laws and codes. There is secrecy in this system, those involved cannot escape, it can be very tough but also some can be sucessfull.

However, I would say that a major issue of Kurds is the power of the tribal system. 99% of Kurds land is owned by 1 or maybe less than 1% of Kurds, there is a very wealthy Kurdish elite but the masses don't have a share in this wealth and power.

This is a policy in which I feel AtaTurk was very sucessfull, when the Turkish republic was formed there was a very similar situation. However, villagers were given importance, there was a land reform and the Agha's power's were restricted while the people's rights and power was enforced. The masses benefitted from this as they were not at the mercy of the Agha, AghaKhan or Bey's laws, there was now state law and everybody was an equal under it.

Edited by Bulldog - 12-Feb-2007 at 15:17

IMO, everyone should be FREE AND INDEPENDENT! So, why not the Kurds? They are no different than any other human beings on the Earth!

Edited by morticia - 12-Feb-2007 at 15:33