The Dine Bahane

I know the Mapuche creation history. The fight between the good serpert of the land, Tren-Tren, against the evil serpert of the sea, Cai-Cai, in a fight of cosmic proportions that created the world.

Edited by pinguin - 02-Jun-2007 at 17:45

It is curious but the myths of the Native Americans look like they share something in common with the Siberian and North East Asian myths. Just speculation, though.

Hard question. I don't have any hard evidence, otherwise I would have written a paper and I would be famous by now :)

However, there are certain similaties between East Asian cultures and Native American that are amazing. For instance, the use of the dragon in China and the underground monster of Japan are sort of related with the cult to Quetzalcoatl, the feathered serpent, and also with the Mapuche myth of the creation of the giant serpents of the land and the sea. The ritual of the killing of the bear of the siberians has parallels with the killing of the jaguar in South America. Besides, the cosmological ideas of Amerindians in general are similar to the ones of Asia. That's without forgetting that both peoples has a genetical link, and that cultural patterns like the shaman drums and the teepees are found at Siberian and in the Americas.

The question is... Does shamanism crossed the strait of Bering? Is there a common heritage shared by East Asians and Amerindians?

Well, I meaned something deeper.

Do you have the papers that have studied the coincidences between East Asian shamanism and Amerindian? If so, please let me know the refferencies. I am very interested in see them

Originally posted by pinguin Do you have the papers that have studied the coincidences between East Asian shamanism and Amerindian? If so, please let me know the refferencies. I am very interested in see them

Here's something from wiki.  It cites numerous sources which you can see at the bottom of the page.

Certain relatedness, but far from homogeneity   Main article: Eskimo#Certain relatedness of Eskimo cultures, far from   homogeneity Another possible concern: do the belief systems of various Eskimo groups have such common features at all, that would justify any mentioning them together?  There was no political structure above the groups, their languages were relative, but differed more or less, often forming language continuums (online [44]). There was a certain relatedness in the culture of the Eskimo groups.[18][45][46] But this relatedness allowed great diversity, far from homogeneity.[18] Although a large distance separated the Asiatic Eskimos and Greenland Eskimos, some groups had certain similarities in their shamanistic seances.[41] Similar remarks apply for comparisons of Asiatic with North American Eskimo shamanisms[12]. Also the usage of a specific shaman's language is documented at several Eskimo groups [29] [18], including Asian ones ([41], p. 128 of [42]).  Similar remarks apply for aspects of the belief system not directly linked to shamanism: tattooing (online English [47]); accepting the killed game as a dear guest visiting the hunter (p. 218 [42]); usage of amulets (p. 380 of [42]); lack of totem animals (online Russian [48]; paper [49]). Notes: 12.  ^ a b c Piers Vitebsky, The Shaman: Voyages of the Soul - Trance, Ecstasy and Healing from Siberia to the Amazon, Duncan Baird, 2001. ISBN 1-903296-18-8 18.  ^ a b c d e f g h i j k Kleivan, I. and Sonne, B.: Eskimos / Greenland and Canada. (Series: Iconography of religions, section VIII /Artic Peoples/, fascicle 2). Institute of Religious Iconography � State University Groningen. E.J. Brill, Leiden (The Netherland), 1985. ISBN 90 04 07160 1. 29.  ^ a b c d e f g h Merkur, Daniel: Becoming Half Hidden / Shamanism and Initiation among the Inuit. (Series: Acta Universitatis Stockholmiensis / Stockholm Studies in Comparative Religion). Almqvist & Wiksell, Stockholm, 1985. 41.  ^ a b c d Menov�čikov, G.A. (the same author as Г.А. Меновщиков, but transliterated): Popular Conceptions, Religious Beliefs and Rites of the Asiatic Eskimoes. Translated to English and published in edition by Di�szegi, Vilmos and Hopp�l, Mih�ly: Folk Beliefs and Shamanistic Traditions in Siberia. Akad�miai Kiad�, Budapest, 1968, 1996. 42.  ^ a b c d Rubcova, E.S.: Materials on the Language and Folklore of the Eskimoes, Vol. I, Chaplino Dialect. Academy of Sciences of the USSR, Moscow � Leningrad, 1954. Original data: Е.С. Рубцова: Материалы по языку и фольклору эскимосов (чаплинский диалект). Академия Наук СССР. Москва � Ленинград, 1954. Link:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shamanism

There's a lot more that I didn't include.

Originally posted by Cryptic This is contrast to absolute Abrahamic religions like Christianity and Islam which destroyed earlier shamanistic religions.  No Shamanistic religions survived Christianity in Europe or Islam in the Middle East.

Areal variations Europe While shamanism had a strong tradition in Europe before the rise of monotheism, shamanism remains as a traditional, organized religion in Uralic , Altaic people and Huns; and also in Mari-El and Udmurtia, two semi-autonomous provinces of Russia with large Finno-Ugric minority populations. It was widespread in Europe during the Stone Age[citation needed], and continued to be practiced throughout the Iron Age by the various Teutonic tribes and the Fino-Baltic peoples.[39] See also Sami shamanism, Huns , Finnish mythology , Tengri and the appropriate parts of Shamanism in Siberia. Notes: 39.  ^ A. Asbjorn Jon, Shamanism and the Image of the Teutonic Deity, ��inn Link:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shamanism#Europe

Are these Finno-Ugric people?  The pic above is from:

http://www.gov.karelia.ru/News/2001/0606_10_e.html

Originally posted by Cryptic Another example is the Shamanstic Bon religion of Tibet.  Buddhist authorities allowed it to be practiced.   Meanwhile in nearby Kirghizistan, Abrahamic Islam eventually wiped out  the Shamansitic traditions.   Thus Tibetan folklore probably shares some characteristics with Amerindian beliefs.

I dunno, but I'd say that at a very basic level, all shamanistic traditions share something in common, e.g. things concerning fire, floods (due to earth quakes, volcanic explosions, landslides, etc.), dragons, etc.

A recent National Geographic documentary (or maybe Discovery Channel or History Channel, I can't recall for certain...), suggested the dragon was something which was fundamentally universal in the sense that all peoples throughout the entire world from Asia to Europe to the Americas believed in them.  Though for the life of me, I can't recall if they even mentioned Africa at all.  For me, it is a distinct possibility that the dragon is fundamentally universal, but I can also think that it may have spread throughout the world simply by human migration throughout the aeons.

The dragon first appeared in the Mideast, which is a natural spreading point to Europe and India.  India of course heavily influenced Chinese civilisation.  The inuit also may have brought it to the America, Bering Strait land bridge or no.  (Remember, there were three separate--pre-Viking, pre-Columbian--human migrations into the Americas.)

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Apparently, Africa does have dragon myths too:

http://www.polenth.com/myth/africa.html

But this is inline with what I said above in the second scenario, namely the dragon myth started in the Mideast (or was first written down there), and spread to India, Europe, Africa; from India it when to China, etc., etc.

Originally posted by Cryptic ...  The difficulty, however is determing how many Udmurs actually practice Shamanism as a full religion, verse how many Udmurs maintain (to varying degrees), shaminsitic based tribal cultural traditions but are in fact religously Christians.   U.S. Amerindian tribes have this same mix.   The recent arrival of Evangelical Christianity will probably further reduce traditional cultural practices with religous overtones. ...

Originally posted by pinguin   Yes, syncretism is common.   In South America, in particular, can be seen quite clearly. However, in regions like the Amazon and in Southern South America, the cosmological belives of Native Americans have been preserved intact.

Edited by Cryptic - 11-Jun-2007 at 09:00