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The Pomak Language - a Bulgarian dialect?
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Tangra View Drop Down
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Posts: 28 		  Quote Tangra Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The Pomak Language - a Bulgarian dialect?
    Posted: 26-Jun-2006 at 18:27
Osmanlija
I can also understand why most of them dont want to consider themselves as Bulgarians.It is not a very old history what is done in Rhodopes by the Bulgarian army between 1968-1972.Many of the victims' corpses were found in the reservoir of the river Maritsa and in dams,also in the woods.In some houses all the habitants were taken by the police and their neighbours didnt hear anything about them.Many people had to take shelter in forests and woods to escape the torture and air planes sprayed poisonous gases on forests.
 
It will be very sad and ignorant if they don't want to call themselves Bulgarians because of what communism did to them as what happened to them during that time was strictly related to government's decisions based on this dictative policy.
 
 Don't foget there were as many bulgarians hurt killed disappered and tortured and abused by the regyme of communism. Need I mentioned Belene....
 
Hell, those poisonoeus gases you talk about you think they were designed to hurt only pomacs? they hurt any other living human being there as much as pomaks and is because communism and its regyme in general didn't care.
 
In fact considerinmg the history Bulgaria had under the Ottoman Empire it is actually amazing that Bulgarians left so many pomacs living in Bulgaria after 1910  and lived with them peacefully and shared their land with them without any problems up until the Communist dictature which punished bulgarians just as mercelessly as pomaks.
 
 
You don't hear about anything being done to pomaks before communism or over the past 20 years since communism was abolished. Do you?
 
In fact since communism was abolished Bulgarians are the only ones!!! in Europe who have allowed turks to have their own party in the governemnt !
 
It is kind of funny to hear that they didn't want to call themselves bulgarians because of what communism did to them..... give me a break!
 
  That's borderline ungratefulness one and secondly it is absolute unability to separate the bulgarian nationality and history form Communism and its ideology and brutality.
 
 
 
 
 


Edited by Tangra - 26-Jun-2006 at 18:41
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Posts: 2329 		  Quote Yiannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jun-2006 at 08:32
I believe  you're easily offended and that Dorian was merely trying to show that the Pomac language is Bulgarian in origin but also influenced by other languages as well. At least that's what I understood from his posts....
 
 
The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics

Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin
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Posts: 2888 		  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jun-2006 at 08:01
Originally posted by dorian

Cill out, I just told that a lot of greek words exist in the pomak vocabulary. Where is the nationalistic view?
 
Why some of you are always try to explain anything as a nationalistic attempt?
 
And stop fighting about their bulgarian or turkish origin...
 
Something else I want to say is that I can't take seriously people who say that there is no pomak language but they talk about "macedonian language"....
 
Some of you do the same with the same frequency. I cannot take seriously people who always try to find greek footstep in any topic. Any language contain greek words it is widely accepted. No needs to repeate this every time.  Keeping in mind that nowadays a lot of them are replaced with their english analogues.
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Posts: 370 		  Quote dorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jun-2006 at 07:53
Cill out, I just told that a lot of greek words exist in the pomak vocabulary. Where is the nationalistic view?
 
Why some of you are always try to explain anything as a nationalistic attempt?
 
And stop fighting about their bulgarian or turkish origin...
 
Something else I want to say is that I can't take seriously people who say that there is no pomak language but they talk about "macedonian language"....
"We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians.That's who we are!We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia�Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century" Kiro Gligorov FYROM
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Posts: 0 		  Quote osmanlija Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2006 at 21:50

      Pomak language is a Bulgarian dialect for sure.But differences from the standart Bulgarian seem big.Once i met a guy from a village near Smolyan.He told me that in their village,they use only "sreden rod".They say "ya som bolno" instead of "as sum bolen".He also told me that Pomak dialects vary a lot.That looks sensible since they are seperated from Christian Bulgarians for hundreds of years.If we also consider that they were Bogomils even before the Ottoman Conquest of Rhodopes,we can understand it better how they were seperated than other Bulgarians.It is well-known that they lived in the mountains for long time in the history. 

      I also find it nonsense the Greek nationalistic view about Pomaks.They may use some Greek words,also they use many more Turkish words but that doesnt change the fact that they speak a Slavic language.All the grammar is the same with Bulgarian and Macedonian except for slight differences.
      I can also understand why most of them dont want to consider themselves as Bulgarians.It is not a very old history what is done in Rhodopes by the Bulgarian army between 1968-1972.Many of the victims' corpses were found in the reservoir of the river Maritsa and in dams,also in the woods.In some houses all the habitants were taken by the police and their neighbours didnt hear anything about them.Many people had to take shelter in forests and woods to escape the torture and air planes sprayed poisonous gases on forests near Samokof,Dospat,Yakorudo,Babyak,Bansko.Many corpses were found in Dospat dam.People who were fleeing away to Greece to take refuge in Greece were shot from the helicopters.
And these people still live in Rhodopes.The young people hear the stories of their grandparents and parents.So it is not hard to understand why a important part of the Pomak population dont call themselves as Bulgarians
     
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Posts: 2347 		  Quote bg_turk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2006 at 14:26
Originally posted by The Chargemaster

ama = but (i am not sure is it greek)
It is Turkish.
 

omes        - face          - лице;
progima   - breakfast  - закуска;
harkoma  - cauldron   - котел;
laha se     - happen     - случва се;
kamatan  - beautiful   - красив;
tora          - tonight     - довечера.
 
I can add a few more words (I heard them from Cypriot Greeks)
 
'mutsuna'      -  nose
'mutra'           -  face (in turkish 'surat')


Edited by bg_turk - 25-Jun-2006 at 14:28
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Posts: 1066 		  Quote The Chargemaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2006 at 14:21
Some greek words in the bulgarian language:

drum(dromos) = way;
pederast(paideo-erastos) = homosexual man(boys-lover);
ama = but (i am not sure is it greek)

...and thowsands universal words.

There is a tiny source about the lingiustic characteristic of the bulgarian dialect in the Rhodope mountains(Rodopi), but is in bulgarian: http://bgrod.org/Ezik/index.php?p=smolqngovor

Той има и значителен брой гръцки думи като омес (лице), прогима (закуска), харкома (котел), апраци (сарми), арнисвам (перставам), лаха се (случва се),  каматан (красив), тора (довечера) и др.


greek words in rhodopian bulgarian dialect - english - official bulgarian:

omes        - face          - лице;
progima   - breakfast  - закуска;
harkoma  - cauldron   - котел;
laha se     - happen     - случва се;
kamatan  - beautiful   - красив;
tora          - tonight     - довечера.
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Posts: 1066 		  Quote The Chargemaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2006 at 13:32
The "pomak"- english dictionary is so foollish thing, as foollish thing is the "macedonian"- english dictionary. They are in fact bulgarian - english dictionaries.
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Posts: 370 		  Quote dorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jun-2006 at 19:58

I mean the bulgarian words which are respective of the pomak words I posted.

 
Kotetsi means "hutch"
 
Velentza means "rug"
"We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians.That's who we are!We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia�Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century" Kiro Gligorov FYROM
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Posts: 2888 		  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jun-2006 at 19:39
Yes I can easely point you to some bulgarian (or Slav) words:
 
Orhn: Mne mo zavt Orhn. Tbe kak to zavt?

In russian: Menja zovut Orhan, Tebja kak zovut?
 
Hilmiy: Mne mo zavt Hilmiy.
The same.
 
Orhn:  At kad si?
Bulgarian: ot kude si? Ot as you said is greek. Let it be greek.
Hilmiy: At Bratnkovo. T at kad si?
The same.
 
 
Orhn: Ya som at Sdnovitso. mash li drg brtye?

Ya is russian and old bulgarian. Som like bulgarian sum. at again greek.
 
Hilmiy: mom ann sstro i dvamna brtie.
Bulgarian: Imam edna sestra i dva (dvamina) brata.
 
Hilmiy: Klko si godn?
Bulgarian: Na kolko si godini?
 
etc.etc.etc.
 
kotetsi and velentza -- what do they mean???
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Posts: 370 		  Quote dorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jun-2006 at 18:45
Originally posted by Anton

Some mentions -- in bulgarian piron mean nail, and zastaem would probably mean to stand after. And in bulgarian kopele means bustard  not a boy Smile.  Maybe in pomak these words have translations that you mentioned but may be not.
 
 
I took these words from a pomak-english dictionary. I don't think that it doesn't have the right meaning for each one. 
 
Originally posted by Anton

Which by the way does not mean that words mentioned by you came directly  from greek not through bulgarian Smile 
 
If anyone can give the bulgarian word for each pomak we could see it.
 
Originally posted by Anton

Another thing that I would like to mention as a discussion is that some of the mention words are common notonly for Balcan slavs but all or at least most of them (like koliba, kokal, livad, miska, pomnem, and  some others). How could you explain that they are taken from greek? It seems to be more than strange to take a commonly used words for like doghter or mother from another language. Usually invasion of words are taken either when mixture of nations occur or when there is something is missing in a culture and word such word does not exist. These are words like school, magia etc. which comes from greek and latin. Am I not right? Sorry for the of-top -- it is not related to this topic but it is just interesting question.
 
1.Greek from the ancient times up to now is a very prestigious language.
 
2.The slavic language (at the beginning) like many others in Balkans were only oral so it was easier for foreign words to enter the slavic vocabulary.
 
3.Slavs were not civilised.
 
4. Their alphabet derive from the greek. It is quite important.
 
5.Greek was the lingua franca during the hellenistic times and the language of the Byzantine Empire. That's the main reason for the greek words which exist in the balkanian languages.
 
Originally posted by Anton

And finally, could you kindly post words that were taken by greek from slavs?  
 
There are few greek words of slavic origin. I know two of them: kotetsi and velentza


Edited by dorian - 24-Jun-2006 at 18:48
"We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians.That's who we are!We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia�Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century" Kiro Gligorov FYROM
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Posts: 2888 		  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jun-2006 at 18:13
Dorian I have checked all posted words and most of them seems to be ancient greek indeed Tongue  I could add word "ajde" which means "let's do" or "hurry up". At least my greek friends told me that such word exist in greek language. Some mentions -- in bulgarian piron mean nail, and zastaem would probably mean to stand after. And in bulgarian kopele means bustard  not a boy Smile.  Maybe in pomak these words have translations that you mentioned but may be not.  Which by the way does not mean that words mentioned by you came directly  from greek not through bulgarian Smile
 
Another thing that I would like to mention as a discussion is that some of the mention words are common notonly for Balcan slavs but all or at least most of them (like koliba, kokal, livad, miska, pomnem, and  some others). How could you explain that they are taken from greek? It seems to be more than strange to take a commonly used words for like doghter or mother from another language. Usually invasion of words are taken either when mixture of nations occur or when there is something is missing in a culture and word such word does not exist. These are words like school, magia etc. which comes from greek and latin. Am I not right? Sorry for the of-top -- it is not related to this topic but it is just interesting question.
 
And finally, could you kindly post words that were taken by greek from slavs?  
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Posts: 370 		  Quote dorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jun-2006 at 11:26
Originally posted by Anton

Dorian, thanks for the list. No doubts, a lot of greek words came to bulgarian as well as most of other languages. Regarding the words posted by you I propose a simple test. If these words exist in ancient greek they are greek (but actually even in this case they could come to both languages separately from for example thracian). If not -- study is required for every particular word. In these case there is a possibility that words came from other languages to greek. Why not?
 
That's a good remark Anton. This is something that I forgot to say.I posted only the words which are of pure greek origin after a quick study for each world and excluded the greek words which have a turkish, slavic, latin etc origin.
 
Furthermore, I have a separate list of pomak verbs and nouns that come from greek verbs and nouns respectively and they are almost identical with the greek (except for the endings). But these pomak words are written in the greek alphabet in my source and I have to write them in latin according to the pronunciantion. If I post them, I'd like to tell me if these words really exist in the pomak language (if anyone knows).
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Posts: 4613 		  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jun-2006 at 09:52
there are some words in greek that are not I/E, but are assumed to be pre-I/E. Would that preculde them from being greek? In my mind no, but that may have to be clarified before any test.
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Posts: 2888 		  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jun-2006 at 09:03
Dorian, thanks for the list. No doubts, a lot of greek words came to bulgarian as well as most of other languages. Regarding the words posted by you I propose a simple test. If these words exist in ancient greek they are greek (but actually even in this case they could come to both languages separately from for example thracian). If not -- study is required for every particular word. In these case there is a possibility that words came from other languages to greek. Why not?
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Posts: 370 		  Quote dorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jun-2006 at 20:16
I didn't copy-paste it. I just looked through a small list of pomak words and their translation in english, and I found which of these words derive from greek words.
 
As you can see, most of the above english words have no relationship with the greek words, so we can't say that these specific greek words have generally affected the vocabulary of the prevalent languages like english.
 
Actually, how many of these greek words are congener in bulgarian? I have no idea.
 
"We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians.That's who we are!We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia�Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century" Kiro Gligorov FYROM
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Posts: 28 		  Quote Tangra Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jun-2006 at 15:18
Originally posted by Bulldog

Its great to see more Bulgarians starting to explore their past and put the prejeduce and lies that have sadly been promoted aside.
 
Thank you for the encouragment.
I think we have always been conscious and proud of our nationality, culture and history but it is true that communism did a lot of damage  especialy to our esteem as a nation.
 
One thing that really grabbed my attention when I first encountered this forum was the thirst for knowledge and the very friendly ambience and communication. I am really enjoying to see people from the balkans exploring our past and cultures together. After all we all are like a big familly and we should look past any prejudice.
 
Speaking of lies and prejudice I have noticed thou that westerners hold a lot of preconceived ideas and have inaccurate perspective of the bolkans. I am also happy to see people from the far west being interested of getting the real picture.
 
Regards
Smile


Edited by Tangra - 23-Jun-2006 at 15:27
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Posts: 2800 		  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jun-2006 at 14:28

Tangrism is still a living religion I think? by some Turkic people's in North Eastern Russian remote regions.

Its great to see more Bulgarians starting to explore their past and put the prejeduce and lies that have sadly been promoted aside.

 
      What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
Albert Pine

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Posts: 28 		  Quote Tangra Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jun-2006 at 13:54
Did you know that there are Bulgarian words which are very close with Mongolian
 
for instance
Tsetsa ( which we all know is used as a name and is another version of Tsveta)  in Mongolian "tsetsa" means flower  ie tsvete.
 
Also the pagan God of the pra-bulgars we all know was Tangra. We also know that according to our pagan traditions in the past God was concidered to be the sky and everything in it...well guess what In Mongolian Tangra means sky.
 
 


Edited by Tangra - 23-Jun-2006 at 13:56
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Posts: 2347 		  Quote bg_turk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jun-2006 at 06:17
Thanks for the list Dorian, but most of the words on this list as Charge noted also exist in Bulgarian and Macedonian so they do not prove any link of the language spoken by Pomaks to Greek. (some even exist in Turkish - kanonlo (kanunlu), kufina(kufa), lahna).

PS. Could you please provide the source from where you pasted the list?
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