What if Mongolians horde landed in Japan?

I don't think Mongols had as many horses as needed on their ships when they got Kyushu. Actually mongol warrior without horse isn't different from that of other nations, probably even worse.

Originally posted by TranHungDao The problem is that those high-brow mainstream scholars are citing that new theory/new book I cited earlier, in the newer editions of their textbooks.  I dunno, but Yale & Stanford profs are not that stupid... Many of these bozo's get paid over $1 Million a year.  Also, keep in mind the Japanese nationalistic mythology also blames the typhoon, because it gave them a sense of divine protection, the "chosen ones" and whatnot.  That is, their own mythology contradicts their own ancient records.  Between nationalistic myths and ancient records, (which of course could also be a bunch of nationalistic revisionism), I would still have to go with the ancient records. The best thing of course is to have third party, neutral historians to sort it all out:  Japanese records, Yuan/Mongol records, Korean records, and of course, the archeological stuff.

Originally posted by TranHungDao   Originally posted by Sarmat12 So, I would not be so sure about the interpretation of the invasion in favor of Japanese. "My interpretation" is not mine at all, but of mainstream western scholarship.

Originally posted by Sarmat12 Have you checked the link posted by rodimus prime http://www.kimsoft.com/2004/mongol-koryo-japan.htm

The author of this web site is "Lee Wha Rang".  Doesn't sound Japanese to me , i.e. if the Japanese admit this, then it is plausible since it contradicts Japanese traditional mythology about the Mongol Invasions as well as the my of the invincibility of the Japanese samurai.  "Lee Wha Rang" doesn't sound like a neutral third party historian either.

Originally posted by Sarmat12 It says, that the Mongols were  "were victorious and well on the way to occupying Kyushu".

Kyushu is just the southern most large island.  I distinctly remember seeing a documentary where the larger central island was significantly under attack.  My point is, despite this assertion, it doesn't anyway contradict what I was saying.

Put it this way, the Mongols made it pretty much completely into Dai Viet 3 times, but did they win?!?   They also occupied Champa for a fews short years, but did they win?!?  Napoleon and Hitler made it to Moscow, or very near it in Hitler's case, but did they win?!?  The US fully occupied S. Vietnam, did they win?!?  The Soviets fully occupied Afghanistan, did they win?!?  The US is fully occupying Iraq, is it winning?!?
 

Originally posted by Sarmat12 So, I would not be so sure about the interpretation of the invasion in favor of Japanese.

"My interpretation" is not mine at all, but of mainstream western scholarship.

Originally posted by Sarmat12 Can you cite the Chinese sources which say that Mongols were loosing?

Nope, but try this:

In Little Need of Divine Intervention: Takezaki Suenaga's Scrolls of the Mongol Invasions of Japan (Cornell East Asia, No. 113) (Cornell East Asia Series) (Paperback) by Thomas Donald Conlan (Paperback - Aug 2002) Product Description In Little Need of Divine Intervention presents a fundamental revision of the thirteenth-century Mongol Invasions of Japan by revealing that the warriors of medieval Japan were capable of fighting the Mongols to a standstill without the aid of any "divine winds" or kamikaze. Conlan's interpretation of the invasions is supplemented with translations of the picture scrolls commissioned by Takezaki Suenaga, a warrior who fought against the Mongols. In addition, translations of nearly seventy administrative documents are provided, thereby enabling students of Japanese history reconstruct the invasions using contemporary sources. A rare copy of Takezaki Suenaga's Scrolls, reproduced in full, reveals hitherto unknown missing scenes. Furthermore, the scrolls' images can be now read in tandem with its narrative passages, translated in English for the first time. Please note that the entire book was intentionally printed from back to front, so that the reproduced scrolls unfold in Japanese order, from right to left. Thus the book's spine is on the right. This monograph will prove to be of great interest for students and scholars of medieval Japanese history, warrior culture, and the nature of Japan in an East Asian context. Link:  http://www.amazon.com/Little-Need-Divine-Intervention-Invasions/dp/188544513X/ref=sr_1_3/104-6245824-2330367?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1180822637&sr=1-3

I've seen some pretty big named history prof's site this book in the more recent editions of their textbooks on Japanese history.

Originally posted by Sarmat12 The only think we know for sure that Mongols left because of the bad weather, but not because of the victorious samurai.

Let me reiterate what I've previously said...  The weather did play a role.  But was it THE KEY element of the Mongols' defeat?!?  Western scholarhip, i.e. neutral 3rd party scholaship, is trending to the direction that it wasn't.  For them, the Japanese would have won anyway, particularly in the 2nd invasion, despite it being the much larger one.

For me, this new intepretation is debatable.  Why?  Because when the Japanese invaded the Korean peninsula in the late 1590's, (so that they could attack China), they got nowhere fast.  That is, if the Japanese could not defeat Chinese troops (100,000 Chinese came to the rescue), who were so easily defeated by Mongol troops, albeit three centuries earlier, then how could they defeat the Mongols.  Of course, this time, the Japanese were the ones making an amphibious invasion, which natuarally puts them at a disadvantage.

The other thing is that many Western scholars actually believe that the Mongols would have lost had they tried to conquer Europe, which is a joke since they so easily annihiliated the best Europe had to offer:   the Hospitallers, the Templars, the Teutonic knights, ...  And they did it while being outnumbered!!!



Edited by TranHungDao - 02-Jun-2007 at 18:47

Originally posted by Kamikaze 738 Well, that was what happened. After Mongke Khan died during a battle, the new Khan (Hulagu Khan) decided to pull back the Mongol forces that was invading Syria to confront the Chinese instead. Why else did you think that the Mamluk defeated the Mongols in Syria? Thats because over half the forces returned to Mongolia to equip for the conquest of the Southern Song. That left only a few soldiers to fight against the Mamluks and were ultimately defeated. Nearly all Mongol forces were returned to fight in China. Batu Khan had his own agenda so he wouldnt be participating (due to some conflict).

The Mongols had their hands in more than just two places.  Also, don't forget that most "Mongol soldiers" were non-Mongols.

Originally posted by Sarmat12 The fact is that the Mongol expedition was destroyed by typhoon.  We are can not be absolutely sure about other details (different sources give different data). However, having all the information about the military achievements of the Mongols, one can naturally assume that they had better chances for victory.

Look, it was written in both ancient Japanese as well as Chinese records that the Japanese were winning in the second invasion. 

Having said that, I find it debatable if he Japanese could have really won in the end.  For me, what really protected Japan is the mere fact that it is an island.  By way of example, England would have both to Napoleon and Hitler had it no been an island nation.

Originally posted by Sarmat12  Well, the second time they were also wiped out by the typhoon but not by the Japanese defences.

True, but it is debatable if the Japananese could have done it, typhoon or not.  Ancient Japanese records suggest the Japanese were winning, especially since they were prepared as well as the fact that the defenders outnumbered the invaders.

Originally posted by Sarmat12 So the question was basically technical which is whether Mongols would be able to land their army in Japan and fortunately for Japanese they were not able to do so due to the typhoon.

I distinctly remember seeing a documentary where they showed the Mongols had landed and went right into the central regions of Japanese soil, longitudewise.  I think this was the second invasion (1281) of 140,000 men; much of these men would actually have been there for logistical support.

In the first invasion, they had tactical suprise and did not have problems landing.  But in the second invasion, the Japanese were well prepared and they did have problems landing.

And in the first invasion (1274; 25,000 men), the Mongols actually won, but did not know it, and retreated to their ships only to be wiped out by the typhoon.

Originally posted by Kamikaze 738 No offense, but are you kidding me?! Easily conquered?? It took nearly 25 years for the Mongols to conquer the Southern Song! From looking at this and comparing to the other states the Mongols conquer, 25 years was pretty long in which the Mongol conquest of Russia and the Islamic states of the Khwarezmian Empire and the Abbasid Caliphate was roughy 5 years each. That was nothing compare to how long the Song lived before falling to the Mongols. Its also extraordinary to note that when the Mongols invaded the Song, they were already in a weaken state of constant invasion from the Jins and yet they still held on for about 25 years before finally fell to the Mongols. Easily conquered... yea

Just to let you know, I think it was the first Mongol invasion of Vietnam in 1257 was really intended for Southern Song.  Because the Vietnamese refused them passage, they decided (foolishly) to go after Vietnam/Dai Viet instead.  So Dai Viet saved Southern Song for another few decades.  Otherwise Southern Song would have had to fight the Mongols on two fronts including their soft underbelly.

Also, you should as those "what if" questions such as:  What if the Mongols only concentrated on Southern Song instead of rampaging throughout the rest of the known world, all the way out to Europe and North Africa?

Originally posted by Sarmat12  Yes, they were not sea warriors, but in the war with Japan Korean navy was on Mongolian side. And I believe united Korean and Chinese fleet was stronger than the Japanese fleet.

Even so, this would not allow them to conquer Japan.  They'd still need an actual land invasion.

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Edited by Sarmat12 - 02-Jun-2007 at 00:20