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Only a Turk Can Answer This!!

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Only a Turk Can Answer This!!
    Posted: 02-Feb-2006 at 08:56

Atilla,

Instead of making a premature a judgement, reread and reconsider what I wrote in context.  I didn't write I would have done different if I were in power.

Try to stay on topic and elaborate your remarks by examples, and use quote before labeling anything crappy. You might have a different viewpoint, as I have one with an open mind. You seemed to get frustrated for nothing.

 

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  Quote Attila2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Feb-2006 at 08:12

BTW anykind of assimilation is B A D... Ottoman culture was a hybrid-mutated culture that threw the people at the edge of a serious identity crisis.

If Turks of Turkey suffer from anything related to culture,it is mostly the fault of the Ottomans.

Most of the people can be muslim,thats fine,but taking Islam as a kind of culture(instead of a religion) makes an identity clash(and it did and is still doing,thanks to ottomans) 

 

In my opinion,which is not so humble for me,Turks should left their ottoman identity away,and be real "Turks"

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  Quote Attila2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Feb-2006 at 18:45

Noow now now look,what crappy things you've all said 

Now I am asking you,what would you do if you were Atatrk?

Continue to wear fez and turban? or speak a language which most of your own people will never be able to understand?(BTW DONT say that arabic words were replaced by european words.A lot of them were replaced by their old turkic meanings -actually those old turkic meanings are somewhat made-up thingies but its not the fault of Ataturk...- )

Well if I were him,I would ban the arabic alphabet and ANY foreign words(Arabic,Persian,Greek,Armenian,Kurdish etc) and bring back the old GokTurk Fusshark alphabet and replace the words with Old Turkic meanings;and instead of bringing Western style hats,I would bring ancient Turkish Furcaps (well,it would be much better)

 

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jan-2006 at 13:00

To have a better view about the alphabet revolution of Turkey, we should consider the developments before the act of Latin Script usage.

* To change the alphabet was also considered and tried by the ruling Ittihat-Terakki Firka temporarily in 1917. But, because of the concerns of war communication, vulnerabilities, and primary war needs, that idea was dropped after that short trial. Samples of new first Latin alphabet-using texts can be found in some books.  

* Before the Turkish Latin Alphabet acceptance, another similar Latin alphabet was also accepted in Azerbaijan. So, the alphabet reform in Azerbaijan must have sympathized to the reforming rulers of Turkey then. But, after the Turkish alphabet reform, Azerbejican Latin alphabet was changed (in mid 1930s) again to distance those Turkic speaking people's literature by Stalin. 

These are not answers to ok ge's questions, but these factors should be considered revealing secondary evidences in the way to the change of Arabic script in favor of Latin script. 

------------------------

So, far in our prevalent Turkish school curriculum, alphabet reform are presented and substantiated with grounds as:

- Arabic script do not fit the needs of Turkish language. (Some writers says, there had been some attempts (by 1900s)  to modify the Arabic script by adding some vowels to satisfy the needs of Turkish language. But, it was said that, those attempts were not supported, so not succeeded to a Arabic script better fitting to Turkish language)

- It would be the ultimate rational and scientific decision to get rid of an alphabet (Arabic) that is backward and preventing development.  So, to adopt the Latin alphabet of the modern world will prevail a quite better and easier learning process to exterminate the illiteracy and ignorance of Turkish public. (Frankly, no alphabet is backward and some of these reasons are superficially used to back up reforms by explaining them in a reasonable manner to the new generations. Obviously, no revolutionary reform would be wooed by common public, understandably a ruling elite in power did so for common good on behalf of public. It is reported that the illiteracy ratio were reduced substantially, thanks to that alphabet reform and mobilization campaigns for education. To be fair, it was not only the alphabet reform contributed that human development, also the reform zeal must have been a big contributer to develop.)

If I elaborate my opinions:

- It (Latin Alphabet reform) had been decided after long process, a vital step in the Turkish modernization and Westernization process. Turkish republic of today reflects the results and achievements of Atatrk and his companions, some of the reforms succeeded quite well, however we have democracy today, so any reform have to earn public approval first.  

- Turkey is a secular country, accordingly, that alphabet reform served very well to ingrain the secularism. Also, the new Turkish republic denied many remnants of the former Ottoman empire which was predominantly Islamic. The language reform also gave the signal that the religious education, piety, and Ottoman script would no longer have any merit to be accepted and ascended in the government positions. In other words, alphabet reform, deliberately, intentionally and successfully to a certain degree distanced the Turkish people and culture from the past. Say it religion, Arabic alphabet or any other thing. Someone in Turkey sometimes claims that there is something sacred in Arabic script since it is used in Quran. I don't think they are correct, because the Arabic script has been used before the prophets' age; also, it (Arabic script)was originally derived from previous alphabets of the Middle East region.

-  The Arabic alphabet, along with religious world interpretation, was also considered a symbol of the decayed past. It was regarded similar to wearing fez, so served to distinguish who are for the reforms and who are against. Not democratically, but that was the interim period of the new republic. Arabic alphabet was an evidence to a westerner, once entering in Turkey, they were in the Orient. So, one of the eastern originated ingredients of identity was changed to a western one, which is the modern western world norm. Our Turkish identity gained a pillar of western tendency. Although these supposed aims of reforms were, fairly achieved, there were expenses of the alphabet reform which were detrimental. But, no revolutionary reform can be done without thornssss.

- Although they are obvious, I want to review the negative and positive effects of the alphabet reform. Since the interim period for the Latin alphabet was short (3 month I think), they say many of the %5 literate people, before learning the new Latin script, felt alienated to this reform and went on using the Arabic script in their writings. But the new generation, especially teachers, who were only educated with the new alphabet happened to be genuine and zealous pioneers of new republic.   Since the new generation, having learned only the Latin alphabet, in their interest, defended the modernization reforms of the republic [ to ascend to the state of modern civilizations]. 

On the other hand, it is sad not to be able read the literature before the Latin alphabet. Even if a turk now knows the Ottoman script, it is very difficult to understand the literature in 1920s-30s  or before.

We are proud and grateful that Atatrk did show the determination for those reforms, because obviously everyone enjoy the fruits of those cultural reforms.



Edited by tauska
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  Quote Infidel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Nov-2005 at 00:57

I think that the great Ottoman heritage and culture should be always preserved and cherished in the Secular Republic of Turkey. Of course, one shouldn't go back to the past, but look at the many good and positive aspects of it in order to build a prosper future.

Furhtermore, Turkey may have some identity issues (moreover with the possible entrance to the EU) but certainly is a muslim country many wouldn't bother to live in.

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  Quote oTToMAn_TurK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Nov-2005 at 07:46

The Osmanli alhpabet did have special sounds that wer change from the arabic alp. for the, ch, sh, etc. sounds

that was definately not the reason for changing it to latin coz our osmanli (not arabic) alphabet was sufficient in the sounds feild, as it was sufficient for many centuries.

since many guys are saying that it was mainly to be more western then, hehe, this possibility lightens up:

Originally posted by ok ge

4- Turkey changed the alphabets to Latin because they want to distance themselves from anything that is Osmanli, Arabic, and Islam.

Either your a slave to what MADE-MAN
Or your a slave to what MAN-MADE
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  Quote AFG-PaShTuN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Nov-2005 at 07:08

Exactly Brother, i've discussed this with my Turkai friend a couple of times, he doesn't have a clear reason for it.

Anyways, here is the extra Pashto [Afghan] alphabets for their special sounds. Something similar could also have been done for Turkish alphabet.



Edited by AFG-PaShTuN
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  Quote erci Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Oct-2005 at 11:42
muslim and islamic are 2 different bases.Our law simply clarify that Turkey is a secular country tho %99 of its population is muslim.Turkey is in NATO, as well as other western unions and off course will participate in Muslim world organizations.Clearly whole world aware of what we are 

Your background must be Balkan.I have many friends such background as Bosnak, serb or macedon and most can't communicate with their grandparents.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Oct-2005 at 04:39
We changed our alphabet to integrate with the west. we fired many arabic or persian words from our language and got theirs english or french meanings. Turkish politicians didn't understand Atatrk. Atatrk wanted Turkey to integrate with western countries not to be a western country. We turks are asian people also we are eastern because we are muslim. Our elite chosed the european life style but turkish citizens are still feeling themselves as an ottoman. We don't know what are we. Is Turkey an european country?? NO Is Turkey an Islamic country?? Clearly i don't know. We are muslim, our country in the world islam union or anything else i dont know its full name but our main law says that Turkey is not an islamic country And we are seperated from the experience of six hundred years. My grandpa and me speak different languages

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  Quote ok ge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2005 at 18:27
Originally posted by Miller

 

It does, and many Arabs do care. There would not be a half a page post asking the question or as admitted by yourself you thinking about this if you did not care, and this is not the first time I have seen this subject being touched by an Arab.

It very normal for an Arab to like to see Turks use an script that is tied to Arab identity and nationalism and feel proud. To them it shows the level Arabs influence over others. For that exact reason it is very normal for Turks that care about their own identity not to like to use an script that is tied to Arab nationalism and identity and prefer to use a more neutral Latin script. You can go on discussing which script fits the language better forever but that has nothing to do with it.

Ok, thank you for sharing your view on this. However, it does not matter again. I posted a whole page in question not to dispute if I care about it or not. I posted those questions to get an answer about what process of discussion and conclusion that made Turks change their alphabet.

Again, read it clear Miller: Even if Arabs cut themselves in pieces, it did not effect the decision of changing the alphabets to Latin.

If you want your answer Miller, let us say for the sake of argument that "All 250 million Arabs care about it and they are so outraged and cannot sleep their nights for the change of Alphabets and for Arab nationalism in their blood", if Turkey changed their alphabets without considering if Arabs cared or not, then it DOES NOT MATTER. My question wasn't in concern bout If I or any Arab care about it or not. The question was why did they do it? reasons?

Basically, imagine if German met a Turk in 1938 and asked him: Why did you change your alphabets to Latin? 

That answer of the Turk  is the answer im looking for. I hope it sunk this time.



Edited by ok ge
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  Quote Miller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2005 at 18:15
 

It does, and many Arabs do care. There would not be a half a page post asking the question or as admitted by yourself you thinking about this if you did not care, and this is not the first time I have seen this subject being touched by an Arab.

It very normal for an Arab to like to see Turks use an script that is tied to Arab identity and nationalism and feel proud. To them it shows the level Arabs influence over others. For that exact reason it is very normal for Turks that care about their own identity not to like to use an script that is tied to Arab nationalism and identity and prefer to use a more neutral Latin script. You can go on discussing which script fits the language better forever but that has nothing to do with it.

 

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2005 at 17:12

by putting this useless statics you are simply saying that Turks are Dumb and cannot learn fast.

Well, not Turks of Anatolia though, they were just ignored and kept uneducated, but maybe Ottomans were some sort of dumb. They were using the alphabet of one of their subjects. And it wasnt even fitting our language, so Ottomans decided to make our language fit into that subject's alphabet!

So we destroyed our culture.

We didnt. In fact we recreated it with Ataturk. Arabization did destroy it. Just like it did to the Persians, Sogdians or Libyans. Similar to what Greeks did to Romans, or the Byzanthine Empire did to Anatolians. Assimilation. But thanks God, noone could totally assimilate us...

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  Quote ok ge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2005 at 16:18
Not really. Looking into if Arabs care about it or not does not answer anything. Even if Arabs cut themsleves into pieces, it won't make any difference. The decision was internal in Turkey and they have their internal reasons for it.
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  Quote Miller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2005 at 16:06
 

The real question maybe why would Arabs care if Turks use Arabic or Latin script. If you can answer that question I bet you may get some answers to your original question

 

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  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2005 at 16:05

Well I cannot stay ankara much because of  my job should change city almost every 2 month.

Anyway, what I mean is not only langauge(Infact It was lost) but mostly culture. For exp, At ramadan, we are doing some activity related with ottomans.

We should improve it.This activities should not be made only ramadan.

Orta Oyunu, Karagz, hat, ebru or other things. At least we should know, what our ancestor did for the name of art.

They didnt made pictures or status, but They interested with different arts. We just buried them with ottomans.

 

 

 

 

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  Quote Beylerbeyi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2005 at 16:02

Something related to the subject, from today's radikal newspaper (in Turkish):

http://www.radikal.com.tr/haber.php?haberno=168292

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  Quote kotumeyil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2005 at 15:37
This link can be built by serious academic studies. There are some good studies on Ottoman language. Tarih Vakf (The Association of History) provides Ottoman script and language courses as well as other useful studies. I think you are in Ankara Mortaza and if you attend these courses I'm sure you'll get much knowledge and documents...
[IMG]http://www.maksimum.com/yemeicme/images/haber/raki.jpg">
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  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2005 at 14:54

No I am not saying we should return our glorified past, It was not much beauty, but we should built our link with our past. We need to cut it for Ataturk time, but now we should built it again. Specialy cultural link should be built. I dont want to be only a muslim European, we were ottomans, and now we are turk. What make us Turk is, our past, ottomans.

 

 

 



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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2005 at 14:46

I hear your concerns Mortaza.

It seems as though we are aware that culture is a fluid and precious entity. No matter what the change and why or where it came from. It will continue to grow and evolve. We can miss with longing for a past that we ourselves have glorified or we can succeed in the present and in the future by actively sharing views and fostering mutual and diverse understanding.

I sense your aversion to propaganda. Me too.

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  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2005 at 14:35

The culture evolved.

It should be, but we cant say Ataturk revolution is an evolving. It banned and forced ottoman culture to diminish.

I am not saying we should live like ottomans, It should be another forced changing.

But we need a soft changing, It is already becoming, but need some govermental support.

All of our culture changed.

language, we know It is changed, our grandfather and us use different words, and alphabet changed. So we cannot say our langauge is same with ottomans.

history, Changed too. Infact half of our history is propoganda.

sports, changed, yes there is still yagl pnar but It is a rare event.

culture absolutely changed. Religion It is somewhat changed too.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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