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Hitler and Germans the laughing stock of History

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    Posted: 08-Dec-2007 at 20:53
Originally posted by Styrbiorn


...
And those nations and persons who tried to save the Jews was the result of what? Many neutral nations did everything they could to bring Jews into safety in their countries. How does that fit into your theory of European bigotry?
 
First, I explain you already the ideas that lead to WW II and the massive crimes commited in there were in place in Europe for a long time. Killings of Jewish populations, or pogroms, were esporadical but always present in the history of Europe. The example was in place.
 
The use of slave labour was also an example of the colonial powers these times, who exploited to dead millions of Africans in the Caribbean. Ask nations like Dutchland, France, Britain, Portugal and Spain about its history in slavery, and you will find the model followed by the Nazis.
 
For Genocide, the extermination of Native Americans, Tasmanians and many other peoples by European settlers in new lands was the perfect example of how to get rid of the people a nation considered undesirable.
Even Napoleon was planning to commit a genocide in Haiti! That mentality existed in Europe long time before WW II, and survived even after that tragic war. Just remember the war of Yugoslavia.
 
Even the model of the dictator was already in place with figures like Mussolini and Stalin in power before Hitler even appeared on scene.
 
Yes, many Europeans pretend to be innocent of what happened in WW II and want to put everything in the shoulders of Germans.
 
Just realize most common Germans were also the victims of a dictatorship that destroyed Europe.
 
And of course, many Europeans worked for the good, like the Dutchland people that hide Jews in theirs houses, for instace. Spain opened its frontiers to the Jews declaring all of them were "Sephardites" and had Spanish nationality. The Catholic church and even the fascist regime in Italy helped many Jews to be smuggled out of Europe and into the Americas. But didn't you know that even Germans helped? Remember Schidler? Didn't you know that some German diplomats helped as well?
 
I am not saying European are bigots. Most are not. But the tragic history of Europe of recent times was a consecuence of the attitudes of past centuries.
 


Edited by pinguin - 08-Dec-2007 at 21:00
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  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Dec-2007 at 20:39

Originally posted by pinguin

WW II and the Holocaust where the consecuencies of one thousand years of bigotry in Europe. Don't put all the guilt on Germans, please. All Europeans have a good share on those tragical events.

That's my oppinion, anyways.


And those nations and persons who tried to save the Jews was the result of what? Many neutral nations did everything they could to bring Jews into safety in their countries. How does that fit into your theory of European bigotry?
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Dec-2007 at 20:35
Originally posted by King John

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This is just making excuses for people. At some point the people who committed these crimes during WWII have to take responsibility for their actions. I'm blaming the Germans for what happened I'm blaming anybody who was complicit with them. Your argument argument about knowing what it is like living under a dictatorship is ludicrous. If this argument is true it says more about the cowardice of the people living in Nazi Germany than the mindset of your average German. There were many people who stood up to fascism all across Europe, not all were killed actually many lived. Where I grew up we have lots of Germans as well and they told us what was going on and it doesn't have the same apologist ring that your description does.
 
If you blame ONLY Germans of what happened in WW II you are excusing Europeans in general for theirs common guilt.
 
WW II and the Holocaust where the consecuencies of one thousand years of bigotry in Europe. Don't put all the guilt on Germans, please. All Europeans have a good share on those tragical events.
 
That's my oppinion, anyways.
 
 
 
 
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  Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Dec-2007 at 18:01
Originally posted by pinguin

Originally posted by beorna


I don't know, why this is an amazing or adventurous explanation. I saw the question here, why Germans elected Hitler and his NSDAP. I didn't talk about the political eltes, the conservatives and the big company leaders, Ididn't talk about the army. I just tried to explain why common people elected the NSDAP. What do you thought. What do you think why people eg in my village changed from over 60% for the SPD to about 50 for the NSDAP. What do you think why people became members of the NSDAP or their children of HJ or BDM. Look e.g. to some islamic countries. What are radicals doing. They care for the people. They give money or food to poor people, the help them with the education of their children and so on. Because the like the people? They just want their support for their political interest. That's hat the Nazis did. Millions of Germans got a future (they thought they had), got jobs, got their pride back and more. Do you really thought about 50% of the Germans elected the NSDAP because they were all with their ideals. You can say but they could have read the book Mein Kampf. Yes they could. You'd ever looked in that book. It is not only rubbish it's boring to. The most Germans had it, but a very por read it. They didn't think a lot about it. It was their life that got better, the black sides of the Nazis the people couldn't see or wouldn't see. Another point is, that the Nazis ruled the press, the movies, the radio even tv (for a veryfew people). It is not like today. You can watch internet or use your handy or your satellite tv. The most people just knew one truth and that was the one of the Nazis. And if I say about 50% elected the Nazis then you have to think about the other rest. What did they think about it. Some were imprisoned, others arranged with the system or just kept their mouth shut to get no trouble. Parents lived in the fear their children could tell the teacher or the man from HJ what was spoken at home, families were divided because some supported the Nazis and others were against it. For example in my family. A lot were in war with the Wehrmacht (two were at the SS-Polizeidivision) but there were others who even didn't join the NSDAP and even one was murdered because he help people to cross the border.


Please, this isjust an explanation for why common people became Nazis or didn't do something against it. This is no accuse. If you really think there is something amazing or adventure please name it.



Beorna,


I agree absolutely with your post.


It is very easy to demonize German people for the Nazis and WW II.


But people that say those oppinions have never being in the situation of a political totalitarian movement or under a dictatorship. They have never feel the sensation of being controlled by the state, which at its time is controlled by a small nucleous of fanatics. They have never feel the fear of being tortured or killed.


I am Chilean and I lived that in small scale under the Pinochet dictatorship, so I know about it. Besides, in my country we have a German minority and some of them went to fight for Germany (not for the Nazis, but for the country of theirs ancestors) during WW II. We received German refugees and also German Jews escaping from the Holocaust as well. All of them told us what was going on in there.


Blaming German people for everything is forgetting Europe as a whole was playing with fascism and totalitarian ideas since the times of Napoleon. People forget the ideas that ended in the holocaust were growing during centuries in Europe and were increased by racist ideologies like Social Darwinings, developed in Britain and not in Germany.


I think, people should stop blamming Germans for everything. It is too easy to blame a single country for the crimes of the past, forgetting that all Europe got mad twice during the first half of the twentieth century. And all Europe are in part guilty of that.







This is just making excuses for people. At some point the people who committed these crimes during WWII have to take responsibility for their actions. I'm blaming the Germans for what happened I'm blaming anybody who was complicit with them. Your argument argument about knowing what it is like living under a dictatorship is ludicrous. If this argument is true it says more about the cowardice of the people living in Nazi Germany than the mindset of your average German. There were many people who stood up to fascism all across Europe, not all were killed actually many lived. Where I grew up we have lots of Germans as well and they told us what was going on and it doesn't have the same apologist ring that your description does.
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  Quote Majkes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Dec-2007 at 16:41
Originally posted by pinguin

  
Beorna,
 
I agree absolutely with your post.
 
It is very easy to demonize German people for the Nazis and WW II.
 
But people that say those oppinions have never being in the situation of a political totalitarian movement or under a dictatorship. They have never feel the sensation of being controlled by the state, which at its time is controlled by a small nucleous of fanatics. They have never feel the fear of being tortured or killed.
 
I am Chilean and I lived that in small scale under the Pinochet dictatorship, so I know about it. Besides, in my country we have a German minority and some of them went to fight for Germany (not for the Nazis, but for the country of theirs ancestors) during WW II. We received German refugees and also German Jews escaping from the Holocaust as well. All of them told us what was going on in there.
 
Blaming German people for everything is forgetting Europe as a whole was playing with fascism and totalitarian ideas since the times of Napoleon. People forget the ideas that ended in the holocaust were growing during centuries in Europe and were increased by racist ideologies like Social Darwinings, developed in Britain and not in Germany.
 
I think, people should stop blamming Germans for everything. It is too easy to blame a single country for the crimes of the past, forgetting that all Europe got mad twice during the first half of the twentieth century. And all Europe are in part guilty of that.
 
 
I partially agree with Boema and with You. Those are important reasons Boema mentioned but not all as Ulrich noticed - e.g. I would also add strong wish of revange against France and Britain for lost WWI and Wersal Treaty. 
Though I don't agree with blaming Britain for some philosophers that invented racial theories only because it happend that they were British.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Dec-2007 at 13:06
Originally posted by beorna

I don't know, why this is an amazing or adventurous explanation. I saw the question here, why Germans elected Hitler and his NSDAP. I didn't talk about the political eltes, the conservatives and the big company leaders, Ididn't talk about the army. I just tried to explain why common people elected the NSDAP. What do you thought. What do you think why people eg in my village changed from over 60% for the SPD to about 50 for the NSDAP. What do you think why people became members of the NSDAP or their children of HJ or BDM. Look e.g. to some islamic countries. What are radicals doing. They care for the people. They give money or food to poor people, the help them with the education of their children and so on. Because the like the people? They just want their support for their political interest. That's hat the Nazis did. Millions of Germans got a future (they thought they had), got jobs, got their pride back and more. Do you really thought about 50% of the Germans elected the NSDAP because they were all with their ideals. You can say but they could have read the book Mein Kampf. Yes they could. You'd ever looked in that book. It is not only rubbish it's boring to. The most Germans had it, but a very por read it. They didn't think a lot about it. It was their life that got better, the black sides of the Nazis the people couldn't see or wouldn't see. Another point is, that the Nazis ruled the press, the movies, the radio even tv (for a very few people). It is not like today. You can watch internet or use your handy or your satellite tv. The most people just knew one truth and that was the one of the Nazis. And if I say about 50% elected the Nazis then you have to think about the other rest. What did they think about it. Some were imprisoned, others arranged with the system or just kept their mouth shut to get no trouble. Parents lived in the fear their children could tell the teacher or the man from HJ what was spoken at home, families were divided because some supported the Nazis and others were against it. For example in my family. A lot were in war with the Wehrmacht (two were at the SS-Polizeidivision) but there were others who even didn't join the NSDAP and even one was murdered because he help people to cross the border.

Please, this is just an explanation for why common people became Nazis or didn't do something against it. This is no accuse. If you really think there is something amazing or adventure please name it.

 
Beorna,
 
I agree absolutely with your post.
 
It is very easy to demonize German people for the Nazis and WW II.
 
But people that say those oppinions have never being in the situation of a political totalitarian movement or under a dictatorship. They have never feel the sensation of being controlled by the state, which at its time is controlled by a small nucleous of fanatics. They have never feel the fear of being tortured or killed.
 
I am Chilean and I lived that in small scale under the Pinochet dictatorship, so I know about it. Besides, in my country we have a German minority and some of them went to fight for Germany (not for the Nazis, but for the country of theirs ancestors) during WW II. We received German refugees and also German Jews escaping from the Holocaust as well. All of them told us what was going on in there.
 
Blaming German people for everything is forgetting Europe as a whole was playing with fascism and totalitarian ideas since the times of Napoleon. People forget the ideas that ended in the holocaust were growing during centuries in Europe and were increased by racist ideologies like Social Darwinings, developed in Britain and not in Germany.
 
I think, people should stop blamming Germans for everything. It is too easy to blame a single country for the crimes of the past, forgetting that all Europe got mad twice during the first half of the twentieth century. And all Europe are in part guilty of that.
 
 
 
 
 


Edited by pinguin - 08-Dec-2007 at 13:09
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  Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Dec-2007 at 09:46
What was that Goethe said in Dr Faust? "There is no black or white, my friend, just endless shades of grey." 
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  Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Dec-2007 at 08:29

I don't know, why this is an amazing or adventurous explanation. I saw the question here, why Germans elected Hitler and his NSDAP. I didn't talk about the political eltes, the conservatives and the big company leaders, Ididn't talk about the army. I just tried to explain why common people elected the NSDAP. What do you thought. What do you think why people eg in my village changed from over 60% for the SPD to about 50 for the NSDAP. What do you think why people became members of the NSDAP or their children of HJ or BDM. Look e.g. to some islamic countries. What are radicals doing. They care for the people. They give money or food to poor people, the help them with the education of their children and so on. Because the like the people? They just want their support for their political interest. That's hat the Nazis did. Millions of Germans got a future (they thought they had), got jobs, got their pride back and more. Do you really thought about 50% of the Germans elected the NSDAP because they were all with their ideals. You can say but they could have read the book Mein Kampf. Yes they could. You'd ever looked in that book. It is not only rubbish it's boring to. The most Germans had it, but a very por read it. They didn't think a lot about it. It was their life that got better, the black sides of the Nazis the people couldn't see or wouldn't see. Another point is, that the Nazis ruled the press, the movies, the radio even tv (for a very few people). It is not like today. You can watch internet or use your handy or your satellite tv. The most people just knew one truth and that was the one of the Nazis. And if I say about 50% elected the Nazis then you have to think about the other rest. What did they think about it. Some were imprisoned, others arranged with the system or just kept their mouth shut to get no trouble. Parents lived in the fear their children could tell the teacher or the man from HJ what was spoken at home, families were divided because some supported the Nazis and others were against it. For example in my family. A lot were in war with the Wehrmacht (two were at the SS-Polizeidivision) but there were others who even didn't join the NSDAP and even one was murdered because he help people to cross the border.

Please, this is just an explanation for why common people became Nazis or didn't do something against it. This is no accuse. If you really think there is something amazing or adventure please name it.

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  Quote ulrich von hutten Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Dec-2007 at 20:41
Beorna, thanks for your oppinion, but i think  in deep an adventouros explanation.
 
The reasons for the nazi leadership and the following holocaust are more complex.
 
 
 
 

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  Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Dec-2007 at 19:50
That's the most amazing explanation I've ever heard, beorna.
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  Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Dec-2007 at 15:38
Some asked here how this could happen. This is no excuse. This shall be just an Explanation.
Germany found his Unity in 1871 as one of the last countries in western Europe. All the others had colonies, Germany only had some few. They just wanted a place in the sun as the other nations too. Then after WWI which Germany didn't start alone but together with all the other big countries, the were the loosers and they were called guilty alone. Germany had to pay uncredible amount of money and lost greater parts of the state. After the war some neighnour countries, like Belguium and France e.g. invaded the Rhine area to posses the coal. They didn't behave very well to the people. That was seen as an national shame. Then in the 20th there was an inflation of the money  A Goldmark from 1914 was 10 Reichsmark worth in 1919, 100.000 RM in July 1923 and 1.000.000.000.000 RM in November 1923. 1 US-Dollar was as much as 4.200.000.000.000 RM. The people who suffered during the war were again on the looseng side. After that the times began to become better, it is called the Golden Twenties. But in 1928 all was over. The unemployment in 1928 was about 1,25 Million. It rose till 1933 to over 6 Mio. In the same time from 1924 to 1932 the votes for Nationalist and Communists rose from about 12% to over 50%. In my village in 1924 the Socialists (SPD) had 58%, the Nazis not even 1%. In 1928 the Nazis had just 4%, the SPD over 68%. In 1930 the NSDAP had 24% and 1932 47% and the Communists 13%. Only in March 1933 the Nazis had more than 50% but this wasn't really a free election. Opponents of the Nazis were imprisoned, the people were forced to give their vote public and so on. When the Nazis got the power the live of many Germans began to become better. The unemployment sank down to 2,4 Million in 1934 and to 0,5 Million in 1937. The NSDAP was organizing the lives of many people. For the first time many people could go to vacation or could at least send their children on holiday. For a lot of people this was wonderful. And Hitler gave them bachk a feeling of pride that they didn't had since 1918. yes, the people knew that there were other who were imprisoned. But mostly it were people of who they thought, somethings forbidden must have happened. It is like today. If they imprison a neighbour, the most people think: Oh, they wouldn't arrest him, if he is absolutely unguilty. Something has to be. And when they knew what was wrong with the Nazis it was to late. Most were frightened. They feared for their lives, for their family lives. And then the war began. People who were against the Nazis were excited by their success or wouldn't make trouble during a war. Look at America. There are a lot of people who are thinking the war on Irak is not justified. Look how they are treated, sometimes as traitors. And the U.S. call themselves a Democracy. So this is just a little look to the life of "normal" Germans. Perhaps you got a feeling how such very bad things can happen.
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  Quote bilal_ali_2000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Nov-2007 at 17:26
Man why this thread has been resurrected. I am not very proud of this one.
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  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Nov-2007 at 16:39



Originally posted by pinguin

Yeap. Britain was what Nazis tried to imitate.

Every country have nasty pasts.



Edited by Styrbiorn - 12-Nov-2007 at 16:40
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  Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Nov-2007 at 22:43
If the Nazis tried to imitate the British then that was the worst job of acting in the whole history of the human race!  
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Nov-2007 at 18:15
Originally posted by longshanks31

on the first day god created britain, he saw that it was good.
The rest was an afterthought
 
Yeap. Britain was what Nazis tried to imitate.. Wink
 
By the way, that sounds to me like the declaration of the "manifest destiny", isn't?
 
 
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  Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Nov-2007 at 00:45
Originally posted by TheMysticNomad

I'm probably in the minority here, but I generally don't see national origin theories as all that funny (although some certainly are).  Rather, they are based on the realization that humans did not just appear out of nowhere.  Everyone on the planet had to come from somewhere.  Most people understand that humanity originated somewhere in Africa and migrated out to the rest of the world over time.  So, there's nothing wrong with theorizing about the migration routes of peoples, especially when there is evidence to back it up.  Even so, I would agree that Hitler and the Nazis were the biggest crackpots in history.

 
I don't think you are in the minority at all; rather, I think that when we make fun of "origin theories", what we are really making fun of is the laughable use of them by ethnocentrists. Origin theories can, if examined in a mature context, be interesting. On this forum, however, we generally see them childishly trotted out in the service of someone's nationalistic agenda. I agree with you as to the value of studying human -- and even ethnic -- origins. Unfortunately, these studies are generally perverted to suit preconceived ethnic biases. That said, if you chose to break the trend and study them in an academic manner, I doubt anyone would hold it against you -- at least I hope they wouldn't. Wink
 
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  Quote longshanks31 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Nov-2007 at 22:12
on the first day god created britain, he saw that it was good.
The rest was an afterthought
long live the king of bhutan
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  Quote Deano Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Nov-2007 at 01:17
Originally posted by TheMysticNomad

I'm probably in the minority here, but I generally don'tseenational origintheories as all thatfunny (although some certainly are). Rather, they are based on the realization that humans did not just appear out of nowhere. Everyone on the planet had to come from somewhere. Most people understand that humanity originated somewhere in Africa and migrated out to the rest of the world over time. So, there's nothing wrong with theorizing about the migration routes of peoples, especially when there is evidence to back itup. Even so, Iwould agree that Hitler and the Nazis were the biggest crackpots in history.



I was kidding though just so you know.I dont know if you thought I was serious or not but I was kiddin. I never get to use that one !
I AM FARTAKUS!
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  Quote TheMysticNomad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Nov-2007 at 08:43

I'm probably in the minority here, but I generally don't see national origin theories as all that funny (although some certainly are).  Rather, they are based on the realization that humans did not just appear out of nowhere.  Everyone on the planet had to come from somewhere.  Most people understand that humanity originated somewhere in Africa and migrated out to the rest of the world over time.  So, there's nothing wrong with theorizing about the migration routes of peoples, especially when there is evidence to back it up.  Even so, I would agree that Hitler and the Nazis were the biggest crackpots in history.

Unify All Countries!
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  Quote Majkes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Nov-2007 at 21:27
Originally posted by Deano

Originally posted by Majkes

Originally posted by Deano

Im just waiting for them to find out that germans are desendents of Irany chinese people that where attacked by aliens and mixed mated and to flee the aliens they ran away to present day germany around bc 19,030,344.Then aliens setteled around Iran afghanistan and west china and those people their now are desendents of aliens from uranus .

 

My English is too poor to understand itConfused. Translation or short explanation is needed.

What I meant was I was hoping for them to find out soon that the people living around afganistan,eastern Iran and west china here pushed out and fled to germany by aliens from uranus.Then the aliens settled in that area.And it all happened a long,long time a go.
 
Ok, I see your point. You can go to Medieval forum and see there a very long and very funny thread about Bulgarian originsLOL.
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