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Bulldog
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Topic: What decides ethnicity and nationality? Posted: 14-Dec-2006 at 14:34 |
Great topic!
Paul
Nationality is a easy one, most countries have quite comprehensive legislation covering it, admittedly different in each. Personally I subscribe to the, what does it say in your passport? Solution. Saves a lot of trouble.
I agree with this however, in my opinion the real juicy section is ethnicity and needs much greater analyses.
Ethnicity is not controlled by borders, by governments or pollitics, it's very pychological and can have a much deeper meaning than "Nationality".
The primary factor's can be summarised as, mother-tongue, culture, identity, family values plus the ideas regarding identity that they provide, a sense of belonging and acceptance.
Mother-tongue is of great importance, as it's the language which you first come into contact with. However, there are exceptions, this can be especially seen for example in Afro-American, Afro-Brittish, Afro-French etc, while their mother-tongue's may now be English this does not give them an English or American ethnicity, unless ofcourse they percieve themselves to have one.
Culture is of high value, the songs, music, arts, styles etc your exposed to can help shape who you are and make you feel a connection to those who share your cultures, values and traditions.
Family values and the ideas they pass down to us regarding identity are extremely important. Families are the first to shape us into what we will become, they teach us about are forefathers, who we are, our history, our family, who were a social part of and so on.
Then there is the sense of belonging, this is key. If you speak the language, share the culture and values, have the identity, other's who have this are also like you giving a sense of belonging. However, if you have these similarities but are rejected, it makes you search for the reason as to why. Is it skin colour, religion, where we've been living and so on. This causes people to search for the society that they belong to and are accepted into. The point raised hear connects back to the mother-tongue issue, even though a person may not share the mother-tongue based upon these reasons they may feel the sense of belonging to another community who he/she doesn't share the same language with but feels a historical link to.
There are so many other factor's, its a very deep issue, and pretty subjective and personal.
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What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
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think
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Posted: 13-Dec-2006 at 05:00 |
In the case of Blacks in the U.S., they have never been considered
"locals" by the White people. That's the origin of the problem, I
believe, rather than superficial things like the color of skin. Racism
is just another excuse |
Do Chileans regard Natives or Blacks as locals ?
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Posted: 12-Nov-2006 at 07:13 |
For me the point is clear. The world is divided between locals and foreigners.
People usually think:
This is my land, so why those alliens come here, who invited them?
Then discrimination starts because of looks, religion, accent, cloths, etc., which are just justifications of hate, rather than the origin. The origin is the presence of foreigners in our own living space.
In the case of Blacks in the U.S., they have never been considered "locals" by the White people. That's the origin of the problem, I believe, rather than superficial things like the color of skin. Racism is just another excuse.
Pinguin
Edited by pinguin - 12-Nov-2006 at 07:14
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Cywr
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Posted: 12-Nov-2006 at 04:41 |
So Whites, Blacks, and Asians are just illusions we all see? They are
nothing but our imagination? Is that not what a ethnic group is,
gentetic diversity? |
White isn't an ethnicity, ditto for Black or Asian. It becomes a label of convenience in a society that is accustomed to grouping people on that basis, but thats pretty much it. In London, Imran Khan is Asian, but in the US, generaly he isn't, because he doesn't look like Jackie Chan. Where-ever he goes, he is Pakistani, and whatever his ethnicity is (Pushtan?). And no, ethnicity is so much more than mere genetic diversity, if genetic diversity is so important, why settle for bland colour codes?
i don t think religion plays an important part in this, i am not saying it isnt, just take a look at mid-eastern countries |
Religion plays a part, but its most pronounced in places where it seperates people who are otherwise the same people, namely, it adds another cultural/ideological layer to an identity that sets them apart and in affect creates a seperate ethnicity. It doesn't always happen, but it can.
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Siege Tower
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Posted: 09-Nov-2006 at 15:51 |
i don t think religion plays an important part in this, i am not saying it isnt, just take a look at mid-eastern countries
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Richard XIII
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Posted: 22-Jun-2006 at 02:54 |
you are what your mother and father said to you.
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SearchAndDestroy
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Posted: 22-Jun-2006 at 00:52 |
So Whites, Blacks, and Asians are just illusions we all see? They are nothing but our imagination? Is that not what a ethnic group is, gentetic diversity? We are all human, but there are differences. There are races, but there are even small changes within races. It's just a name for groups of people. I believe it first was a term for race and ancestry and so on, but now could have cultural meaning too.
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Tobodai
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Posted: 18-Jun-2006 at 01:13 |
Originally posted by Theodore Felix
I left this without a poll since its a very complex question in general. But what in your mind is your national bretheren in this modern day and age, especially in Europe. Id say US excluded. But doesnt need to be. Does blood play a factor? Race? History? Religion? What can you exclude? What would you idealize?
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Imagination, both nationality and ethnicity are figments of the collective human imgagination and irrelevent defects in our development as individuals, none the less they are useful tools for taking control and using the "other" as means on retaining that control.
Thus I wholly support these imaginary concepts as a means for great people to exert will over the mob, but those in the mob that actually believe this crap are to be despised.
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I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value."
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Cywr
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Posted: 16-Jun-2006 at 05:26 |
Ethnicity is primarily culture, language and to an extent, ancestry. But ultimatly its background/envirmoment that determines how individuals and groups will percieve and qualify any given ethnicity. And this is where things get interesting, especialy when you consider that a growing number of people are in a position where they will have multiple over-lapping identities that trenscend traditional notions of ethnicity. Are English Jews ethnicly English but religiously Jewish, or Ethnicly Jewish and English by nationality? Or perhaps Anglo-Jewish, an over-lapping sub-ethnicity, and British by nationality? Ask a dozen English Jews, get a dozen answers.
Religion trandscends ethnicity, generaly speaking, so it only plays an important role in specific circumstances, where the notion of ethnic/group identiy is bound closely to religion, as say in N. Ireland or Bosnia. Race is the same, its only an important factor in racialised societies where atitudes to ethnicity are defined racialy. Being 'Black' is a pretty significant ethnic identifier in the US, but generaly less helpfull in a large multi-ethnic African country like say Nigeria, however, being a Yoruba retains its significance where-ever you live, even if your hosts generaly can't be arsed to aknowledge it.
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Arrrgh!!"
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Posted: 16-Jun-2006 at 05:03 |
Race and religion play a huge factor.
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Arbr Z
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Posted: 12-Jun-2006 at 19:30 |
Unfortunately a dog is a creature which is known as a dog by A MAN.
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Prej heshtjes...!
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Posted: 12-Jun-2006 at 09:54 |
Originally posted by akritas
Ethnicity has nothing to do with blood and DNA.Now according to the current international thinking there are two main models of nation:
(a) the territorial and civic model and (b) the ethnic-genealogical model.
The theory of Renan belongs to the western civic model, as per which a historic territory, legal-political community, legal-political equality, and common civic culture and ideology are required for the formation of a nation. According to the alternative ethnic model, which is supported by one of the most prominent modern theorists of nationalism, Anthony Smith, nation as a community is based on the common predecessors, the common descent of the different ethnic groups and their native culture.
The nations with an ethnic or genealogical basis seek to expand so as to include the ethnically kin populations that are beyond the current borders of the ethnic nation, along with the territories where they live, or aim for the creation of a much larger ethic-national state, merging into other culturally and ethnically kin states. This is the case of the pan-nationalism of the unredeemed and all other kinds of pan-nationalisms.
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Zagros
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Posted: 12-Jun-2006 at 09:08 |
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gcle2003
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Posted: 12-Jun-2006 at 07:53 |
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim
A dog is a creature that is recognised as a dog by another dog.
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Hmmm... From just casual observation it would seem that dogs frequently mistake all manner of odd objects for other dogs
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Posted: 11-Jun-2006 at 11:40 |
Originally posted by Theodore Felix
But what in your mind is your national bretheren in this modern day and age,
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anyone who has money and is willing to share it.
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Paul
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Posted: 11-Jun-2006 at 09:43 |
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim
A dog is a creature that is recognised as a dog by another dog.
A member of an ethnicity is a person that is recognised as a member by another member
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whether or whether not they recognise themselves?
Or do both parties have to agree?
Edited by Paul - 11-Jun-2006 at 09:43
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Omar al Hashim
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Posted: 11-Jun-2006 at 04:58 |
A dog is a creature that is recognised as a dog by another dog.
A member of an ethnicity is a person that is recognised as a member by another member
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Akolouthos
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Posted: 07-Jun-2006 at 14:59 |
Originally posted by Paul
Nationality is a easy one, most countries have quite comprehensive legislation covering it, admittedly different in each. Personally I subscribe to the, what does it say in your passport? Solution. Saves a lot of trouble. |
Sounds like a good solution to me: simple and universal.
-Akolouthos
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Paul
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Posted: 07-Jun-2006 at 14:02 |
Nationality is a easy one, most countries have quite comprehensive legislation covering it, admittedly different in each. Personally I subscribe to the, what does it say in your passport? Solution. Saves a lot of trouble.
Ethnicity is one of those highly abstract terms that has no actual meaning, it is usually used withing a paradign. Often the paradign itself is that of a person with an ideaology and agenda to promote this ideology. The word gleans it's meaning from the paradign it is used in, so changes users to user, paradign to paradign.
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akritas
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Posted: 07-Jun-2006 at 13:55 |
Ethnicity has nothing to do with blood and DNA.Now according to the current international thinking there are two main models of nation: (a) the territorial and civic model and(b) the ethnic-genealogical model. The theory of Renan belongs to the western civic model, as per which a historic territory, legal-political community, legal-political equality, and common civic culture and ideology are required for the formation of a nation. According to the alternative ethnic model, which is supported by one of the most prominent modern theorists of nationalism, Anthony Smith, nation as a community is based on the common predecessors, the common descent of the different ethnic groups and their native culture.
The nations with an ethnic or genealogical basis seek to expand so as to include the ethnically kin populations that are beyond the current borders of the ethnic nation, along with the territories where they live, or aim for the creation of a much larger ethic-national state, merging into other culturally and ethnically kin states. This is the case of the pan-nationalism of the unredeemed and all other kinds of pan-nationalisms.
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