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The Pomak Language - a Bulgarian dialect?
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The Chargemaster View Drop Down
Chieftain
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Posts: 1066 		  Quote The Chargemaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The Pomak Language - a Bulgarian dialect?
    Posted: 06-Aug-2006 at 04:51
Originally posted by bg_turk

Pomaks were fervent supporters of the Ottoman Empire, for the Russians and Bulgarians they were an enemy
many Pomaks fled with the Turks as Christians invaded the Rhodopes, especially during the 1878 and 1912 wars

The one reason for these things was their religion. They are muslims(thanks to the turks, naturally) and because of that, they symphatized to the other muslims, but not to the giaurs, and they were always with the other muslims against the christians.
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Posts: 2347 		  Quote bg_turk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Aug-2006 at 00:23
Originally posted by NikeBG

The Bogomils were not an ethnicity, but a Christian heresy.


I did not mean to say otherwise nor did I imply that they spoke a different dialect.

Bogomils were persecuted by the church, they were not attached to Christianity as much, so they readily endorsed Islam.


Regarding your thesis that Pomaks could have left with the Russians, I still doubt it. Pomaks were fervent supporters of the Ottoman Empire, for the Russians and Bulgarians they were an enemy, so there is no reason for Pomaks to have fleed with the retreating Russians. In fact the opposite
 was observed, many Pomaks fled with the Turks as Christians invaded the Rhodopes, especially during the 1878 and 1912 wars.


Edited by bg_turk - 06-Aug-2006 at 00:27
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Posts: 0 		  Quote pomak35 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Aug-2006 at 08:11

Hilmiy: Klko si godn?

Orhn: Ye som/ asam na on-doks  devetnadeset correct one...

we use these phrases (red signed) when we speak pomak language in tr. i think some differences belongs to local dialects but we count as like as anno/adin-dve-tre-chetri-pet... When we had came in tr (1905-1910) our grandparents had got nothing about turkish
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Posts: 1066 		  Quote The Chargemaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jul-2006 at 10:41

Originally posted by pomak35

i believe that pomaks have got more slavic specialities than bulgarians so they have lived in ukraine for (apprx)400 years because of pomak language contains at least %40-50 of ukrainian slavic dialect. There are many similarities between ukrainian/russian tongue and tradition. For ex... we have got surname/progeny attachments as like as toskuski, phirushski, shanski, lavranski etc......And pomak tongue is pure than bg dialect...


Welcome, dear MUSLIM BULGARIAN.

1. My dialect sounds also different from the official bulgarian language.
2. In my dialect are also many similarities with the ukrainian language.
3. Your examples, are very good examples from the bulgarian language.

So we are speaking bulgarian language and we are bulgarians, but with different religions.
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Posts: 529 		  Quote NikeBG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jul-2006 at 19:35
The Bogomils were not an ethnicity, but a Christian heresy. There's absolutely no reason for them to have had separate dialects...
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Posts: 2347 		  Quote bg_turk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jul-2006 at 15:31
Originally posted by NikeBG

when around 100 000 Bulgarians (maybe Pomaks too?) fled together with the Russian army to nowadays Romania, Ukraine and Russia? Or is it from some other time and reasons?


I would say this is unlikely, because Pomaks fought the Russians.

My humble opinion is that Pomaks decended from the Bogomils.
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Posts: 529 		  Quote NikeBG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jul-2006 at 12:04
Welcome to the forums, Pomak35!
Is the Ukrainian influence you're talking about from the middle of the 19th century, when around 100 000 Bulgarians (maybe Pomaks too?) fled together with the Russian army to nowadays Romania, Ukraine and Russia? Or is it from some other time and reasons?
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Posts: 2347 		  Quote bg_turk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jul-2006 at 09:45
pomak35, welcome to the forum. Nice to have you here. 
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Posts: 0 		  Quote pomak35 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jul-2006 at 06:36

i believe that pomaks have got more slavic specialities than bulgarians so they have lived in ukraine for (apprx)400 years because of pomak language contains at least %40-50 of ukrainian slavic dialect. There are many similarities between ukrainian/russian tongue and tradition. For ex... we have got surname/progeny attachments as like as toskuski, phirushski, shanski, lavranski etc......And pomak tongue is pure than bg dialect...

Meanwhile im a pure pomak from tr
 
Regards
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Posts: 132 		  Quote tsar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jul-2006 at 08:43
Originally posted by Bulldog

Tangra I applaud you, people like you will take Bulgaria forward! The beautiful country needs beatiful minds [IMG]height=17 alt=Smile src="http://www.allempires.com/forum/smileys/smiley1.gif" width=17 align=absMiddle>

    

Yeh bulldog and ur not one of them.
    

Edited by tsar - 01-Jul-2006 at 08:43
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Posts: 1066 		  Quote The Chargemaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jun-2006 at 14:15
Your information is better than all sources which i has read up to this day!

Seni COK tesekurederim! You are a good source, i think! Thumbs Up
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Posts: 0 		  Quote osmanlija Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jun-2006 at 13:00
the chargemaster
I know the names of 2 villages in Bursa."Gndoğdu" and "Armutky".I know many more villages but i dont know the names.These are the names of the villages in the Biga region near anakkale:Abdiağa, Akkayrak, Arabaalan, Camialan, eşmealtı, Elmalı, Harmanlı, Havdan, Ilıcabaşı, Işıkeli (Eşeki), İlyasalan, İskenderky, Kapanbelen, Kaynarca, Yeşilky (ilingir Mahallesi), Yolindi    Most of those villages are founded by Rhodope Pomaks.the villages eşmealtı was founded by Pomaks from northeastern Bulgaria(from Botevgrad).Yeniitlik was founded by Pomaks from Lofa(Love).For thpse who speak Turkish
in this site you can learn more about the Pomaks and other minorities in Biga.There is a deep information about where the immigrants came from.
 
I had some friends from Pomaks.I can say that most Pomaks who live in big cities usually dont speak Pomak.But most say me that their grandparents and parents still speak it.Pomaks who live in villages are usually religious.Once i asked a Pomak "what do you think about the theory that the Ottomans forced Pomaks to convert?"He answered me "dont ever say it in a Pomak village,they will kill you"Smile
Its for sure that in Turkey there is bigger Pomak population than in Bulgaria as i can see everywhere someone from some Pomak origin.
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Posts: 28 		  Quote Tangra Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jun-2006 at 17:44
Originally posted by Bulldog

Tangra I applaud you, people like you will take Bulgaria forward! The beautiful country needs beatiful minds Smile
 
Thanks Bulldog !
The truth is that I love all of my bolkan brothers and cousins and If i had a chance to be reborn i would chose the be reborn a Bolkan blood again.
 
My dream is to see every etnicity preserved and respected and holding hands together in a society of new era  in which we could build an empire of Respect and Togetherness. We must be true to the history and learn form it.
The Bolkans is a small paradise and the people of the Bolkans we all hold lots of hot blood and passion and pride which if directed in the right direction can be our driving power to success and long standing Peace and pull us out of any social and economic troubles we endure presently.
 
Unity is the Power!
 
I hope soon some day my dream shall come true!


Edited by Tangra - 27-Jun-2006 at 17:47
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Posts: 2800 		  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jun-2006 at 17:12
Tangra I applaud you, people like you will take Bulgaria forward! The beautiful country needs beatiful minds Smile
      What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
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Posts: 28 		  Quote Tangra Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jun-2006 at 14:58
Originally posted by osmanlija

tangra,
you are right that all those were committed in the communist era,i didnt want to accuse any bulgarian for those.I just wanted to mention that its not very easy to forget these kind of events for people.
Also i want to mention that my father knows about these events well.At that time he lived in the Pazardjik oblast and was not very far from that events.He also tells me about what his Pomak friends told him that he had in the army.He told me that Pomaks resisted even more than Turks in the "vazroditelnija process".Also according to my observations Pomaks in Bulgaria are much more religious than Bulgarian Turks.
Its also interesting to me that i met some Pomaks in Turkey that still didnt forget pomak language.I also know some villages in Bursa,Manisa,Canakkale,Balikesir and Trakia region where only Pomaks live.
 
 
Thank you Osmanlija !
 
There is no way anyone can forget this and not only Pomaks but all of us- we shouldn't forget  the events of our mutial history. We should forgive but we must remember.
 
At the time this was happening that broke the hearts of the majority of the Bulgarian population but as you know at that time no one could argue with a communist law and order. 
 
The Bulgarian people is just starting to rebuild itself and that is why I am refreshed to see that we as a nation have started to work to move past the grudges from the past. It is good that Turks can have their own party and say in the governemnent for this stands to show the true feelings of christian Bulgarians versus Pomaks and Turks and that we have allowed and shared with our minorities powers which other countries have not yet.
Under democracy we have the freedom to be normal human beings and live neighborly and we all should pick up our ends of the table.
 
I believe we should always remember the mistakes of the past so that we do not repeat them.
 
Regards


Edited by Tangra - 27-Jun-2006 at 16:01
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Posts: 1066 		  Quote The Chargemaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jun-2006 at 11:46
Originally posted by osmanlija

I also know some villages in Bursa,Manisa,Canakkale,Balikesir and Trakia region where only Pomaks live.

That`s very interesting! Thumbs Up
Please, tell us more about these villages, or at least their names(use the turkish alphabet).
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Posts: 0 		  Quote osmanlija Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jun-2006 at 06:03
bg_turk,
i have read it in an English book written by a Turkish author.He had the sources in the book,unfortunately i dont have the book at home now.The book was about the atrocities committed by the Communist government against Turks,Pomaks and gypsies.Also the author provided many names in the book,also mentions about many more events.One of the interesting source was that,some Pomaks tried to apply to immigrate to Turkey,and in the document that the Bulgarian government responded was written "Since those people are Bulgarians,they done have the right to immigrate to Turkey"  "njamate pravo da se izselite sas semejstvoto, taj kato po proizhod ste Bulgari"
tangra,
you are right that all those were committed in the communist era,i didnt want to accuse any bulgarian for those.I just wanted to mention that its not very easy to forget these kind of events for people.
Also i want to mention that my father knows about these events well.At that time he lived in the Pazardjik oblast and was not very far from that events.He also tells me about what his Pomak friends told him that he had in the army.He told me that Pomaks resisted even more than Turks in the "vazroditelnija process".Also according to my observations Pomaks in Bulgaria are much more religious than Bulgarian Turks.
Its also interesting to me that i met some Pomaks in Turkey that still didnt forget pomak language.I also know some villages in Bursa,Manisa,Canakkale,Balikesir and Trakia region where only Pomaks live.
 
 
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Posts: 28 		  Quote Tangra Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jun-2006 at 19:04
Originally posted by bg_turk

Originally posted by Tangra

In fact considerinmg the history Bulgaria had under the Ottoman Empire it is actually amazing that Bulgarians left so many pomacs living in Bulgaria after 1910  and lived with them peacefully and shared their land with them without any problems up until the Communist dictature which punished bulgarians just as mercelessly as pomaks.
 


Actually Tangra you are wrong on claiming that Bulgarians "peacefully shared their lands" with the Pomaks after 1910. In many ways the faith of the Pomak population in Bulgaria was worse than what we Turks had to endure.

I opened a thread on the history of the Pomaks some time ago:

http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11629&PN=1

The Bulgarian plunders against the Pomak population are also well described in the Carnegie report on the conduct during the Balkan wars. An online version is available here.

http://knigite.abv.bg/en/carnegie/index.html
 
Thank you for the information BG_turk
 
Its genuenly new to me and I am quite surprised.


Edited by Tangra - 26-Jun-2006 at 19:05
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Posts: 2347 		  Quote bg_turk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jun-2006 at 18:51
Originally posted by osmanlija

Many of the victims' corpses were found in the reservoir of the river Maritsa and in dams,also in the woods.In some houses all the habitants were taken by the police and their neighbours didnt hear anything about them.Many people had to take shelter in forests and woods to escape the torture and air planes sprayed poisonous gases on forests near Samokof,Dospat,Yakorudo,Babyak,Bansko.Many corpses were found in Dospat dam.People who were fleeing away to Greece to take refuge in Greece were shot from the helicopters.


The information that you present is actually quite new to me. I know the Pomaks were subjected to the "rebirth" campaign much earlier than us Turks but I never realized the situation was that bad. Could you please state your sources for the information above?

Viktor Bojkov has studied the technology and the methods used during the "rebirth" process against the Turks (which was previously rehearsed on the Pomaks), and I provided sections of his article here, for those who are interested:

http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11996


He does not mention any gas poisoning, shooting from helicopters or corpses in dams but it is possible he might have missed that info.


Edited by bg_turk - 26-Jun-2006 at 19:03
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Posts: 2347 		  Quote bg_turk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jun-2006 at 18:46
Originally posted by Tangra

In fact considerinmg the history Bulgaria had under the Ottoman Empire it is actually amazing that Bulgarians left so many pomacs living in Bulgaria after 1910  and lived with them peacefully and shared their land with them without any problems up until the Communist dictature which punished bulgarians just as mercelessly as pomaks.
 


Actually Tangra you are wrong on claiming that Bulgarians "peacefully shared their lands" with the Pomaks after 1910. In many ways the faith of the Pomak population in Bulgaria was worse than what we Turks had to endure.

I opened a thread on the history of the Pomaks some time ago:

http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11629&PN=1

The Bulgarian plunders against the Pomak population are also well described in the Carnegie report on the conduct during the Balkan wars. An online version is available here.

http://knigite.abv.bg/en/carnegie/index.html


Edited by bg_turk - 26-Jun-2006 at 18:52
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