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The Punic Wars

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  Quote Delenda est Roma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The Punic Wars
    Posted: 26-Aug-2012 at 19:46
Not sure. Carthage actually could've built far more than thwt. The real deciding factor was manpower to man them.
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  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Aug-2012 at 19:34
Sounds like an early attempt at mass-production. Wasn't it FDR who said wars were won by the side with the biggest factories?
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  Quote Delenda est Roma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Aug-2012 at 20:38
They did in fact have a navy or did. Twenty triremes plus any ships the Greek Italian cities had. The corvus was a good weapon but as the numerous fleets sunk showed wasn't practical. Rome didn't need a Carthaginian ship for knowlesge of how to build the ship. Her Greek cities would doubtless know how. However try were assembled quicker due to each piece being numbered and prefabricated allowing quicker building and more efficient. Its most likely a myth.
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  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Aug-2012 at 20:23
I seem to recall reading the Romans didn't have a navy before the Punic Wars. They copied an abandoned Carthaginian warship and equipped it with a new weapon: a spiked gangplank to facilitate boarding
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  Quote Delenda est Roma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Aug-2012 at 20:03
Actually the Romans were far better equipped as footsoldiers. They dis in fact steal ideas from any culture they met. They didn't invent much.
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  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Aug-2012 at 19:38
I understand the Carthaginians were initially better equipped than the Romans. However, the Romans were more adaptable and copied and improved captured equipment to give them an edge over their enemies
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  Quote Delenda est Roma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Aug-2012 at 19:34
Found it.
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  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Aug-2012 at 19:26
This might be of interest to Delenda
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  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jun-2012 at 11:16
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  Quote J.M.Finegold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Sep-2006 at 23:22
Eek.  I should; I sort of left this hanging two years ago.  Well then, I think the first thing should be to correct the grammar and spelling mistakes, no?  Then figure out where I picked up from and then recollect everything I was using to write this.  I'll print what I have insofar out.  I'll have to re-read Adrian Goldworthy's book - since this I've been far more interested with the Second World War. Ack, I'll see.
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  Quote Laelius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Sep-2006 at 22:28
I dont think Rome still had much of a choice since even by the end it had a cavalry force that still paled in comparison to the Hellenistic or the Hellenistic copied Carthage. At best a large number of Numidian auxilla...
 
Irrelevent, given Scipio's reforms of the Roman infantry he could have formed a body of cavalry equal to Carthago's had he so desired.
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  Quote Theodore Felix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Aug-2006 at 15:12
Roman cavalry in sufficient numbers wasn't so bad, at Cannae despite being defeated, the outnumbered Roman cavalry on the right flank put up some fierce resistance against Hannibals Spanish horse before finally breaking. They were by no means the best, but in sufficient numbers were not useless.


The battle on that flank became completely irregular and unorthodox. It was a tight squeezed battle inwhich most faugt on foot. Even so the struggle lasted a long while.

The Numidians are regarded as some of the finest light horse in the ancient world, Hannibal relied on them heavily alongside his heavier Spanish and Punic cavalrymen.


True. However at Cannae they were not strong enough to break through the Roman cavalry until the Carthagenian returned. They are were a great support force but on their own they were too lightly equiped.

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  Quote Heraclius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Aug-2006 at 12:29
Originally posted by Theodore Felix

While the leading general's of Rome, Mercellus Nero and Scipio, learned the folly of this approach it should be noted that Scipio's differed from Hannibal's in that Scipio used his heavy infantry as the decisive attacking force.


I dont think Rome still had much of a choice since even by the end it had a cavalry force that still paled in comparison to the Hellenistic or the Hellenistic copied Carthage. At best a large number of Numidian auxilla...


 The Numidians are regarded as some of the finest light horse in the ancient world, Hannibal relied on them heavily alongside his heavier Spanish and Punic cavalrymen.

 Roman cavalry in sufficient numbers wasn't so bad, at Cannae despite being defeated, the outnumbered Roman cavalry on the right flank put up some fierce resistance against Hannibals Spanish horse before finally breaking. They were by no means the best, but in sufficient numbers were not useless.

 It is true though that the Romans did throughout their history heavily relied upon foreign cavalry forces, Sarmatians used in Britain, Gauls in Parthia, Germans as household cavalry at different periods of Roman history. It's curious why in the face of such an obvious deficiency, the Romans did not see the need their own cavalry to improve, much as they seemed to regard a navy as unnecessary pre-Punic wars.

 It's utterly bizarre that this hole was filled with so many foreign troops.
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  Quote Theodore Felix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Aug-2006 at 09:29
While the leading general's of Rome, Mercellus Nero and Scipio, learned the folly of this approach it should be noted that Scipio's differed from Hannibal's in that Scipio used his heavy infantry as the decisive attacking force.


I dont think Rome still had much of a choice since even by the end it had a cavalry force that still paled in comparison to the Hellenistic or the Hellenistic copied Carthage. At best a large number of Numidian auxilla...
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  Quote Laelius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2006 at 22:35

By that point in the war pretty much every general had learned to copy Hannibal. Scipio was certainly not the first. I would say Marcellus was the first to really begin to copy Hannibal's tactics.
 
Even Dodge, the most absurd Hannibalphile of them all, admitted that Scipio's tactics were frequently of an original and... brilliant nature.  What Scipio really took from Hannibal's tactics was his use of a strong corp of independent cavalry.  In the initial stages of the second Punic war the Romans had frequently deployed their cavalry according to legionary standards in which individual detachments would be present with each legion.  While the leading general's of Rome, Mercellus Nero and Scipio, learned the folly of this approach it should be noted that Scipio's differed from Hannibal's in that Scipio used his heavy infantry as the decisive attacking force.
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  Quote Theodore Felix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2006 at 14:01


By Scipio invading Africa he would put Hannibal in the same position inwhich Hannibal had put other Romans in the past. That of aggessors. Meaning they would need to react in order to stop him from further destroying, meaning that they would have to confront him where it suited him not them. If Hannibal declined battle at Zama then scipio could carry on destroying and ravaging Africa as he pleased, as Hannibal did when he was in Italy. It was a most brilliant move.
    
     
The irony of this was probably not lost on Hannibal, Scipio was playing Hannibal pretty much by his own game, by threatening Carthage Scipio forced Hannibal to confront him, ill prepared for the final battle.


By that point in the war pretty much every general had learned to copy Hannibal. Scipio was certainly not the first. I would say Marcellus was the first to really begin to copy Hannibal's tactics.


Edited by Theodore Felix - 30-Aug-2006 at 14:03
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  Quote ReljaSrb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Aug-2006 at 00:40
when Hannibal army came across Alps,number of cavalry was 6000,and ordinary soldiers 20 000. Plus numerous of Gauls... That was big suprise for Romans,cause Publie Cornelius Scipio was already on his marsh for Spain in fort Masilia(greeks collony). But he return his army in north italy,and his brother Gney Scipio continiu marsh for Spain. Hannabl defeat Roamns near the river Trebia and after that came Trazimen lake 217 B.C.
Very important and VERY brave move was when Hanniabal lead his army across swamp Arno(where he lost one of his eyes),becuse Romans are concetrate there troups in Arimin and Arezzo,and lead by Flaminus. Carthagen brave leader make for his final goal few steps more,cause Romans think that they are still waiting for him. So he bet Flaminius near lake and Carthagens killed 15 000 Flaminius soldiers.After this batlle,road to Rome was never been closer,but...
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Keep playing,and never forget to use your own imagination for the final move.
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  Quote ReljaSrb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Aug-2006 at 00:16
Ok boys,for start hello.
I m learning about punic wars now,i have exam in septembar,and it is quite an interesting theme.
U r talking about battles,well,from which books r u giving me informations? Do u read Mashkin,Rostovcev and Dempster?
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  Quote Heraclius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jul-2006 at 11:15
 I think the reasons for Scipio not confronting Hannibal in Italy are quite obvious, by invading Africa, the idea appears to have been that Carthage would recall Hannibal. Therefore Scipio would be indirectly ridding Italy of Hannibal without a single Italian being butchered in his forced expulsion.
 
 The final confrontation would be on Scipios terms, where he wanted it and when, Hannibal could only react. Just as Hannibal had done to the Romans in the epic years after he invaded Italy, Scipio was dictating the course of events. Putting his opponent at a disadvantage and putting him in a position where Scipio was on top.

 The irony of this was probably not lost on Hannibal, Scipio was playing Hannibal pretty much by his own game, by threatening Carthage Scipio forced Hannibal to confront him, ill prepared for the final battle.

 
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  Quote Hannibal the Great Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jul-2006 at 10:28
Originally posted by Earl Aster

Yes- i recall that many of his men fell down the chasms in the alps and all of his elephants died!
 
Also, what were Mago and Hamilcar's military abilities good? Were they as good as Hannibal? Mago seemed to make some assaults against Hanibals' abilities-
"Hannibal got victories but did not know how to use them"
 
I'm assuming you are talking about Hannibal's two brothers, Hamilcar was his father, Hasdrubal was his brother. In answer to your question neither of the two brothers were evidenced to be anywhere near Hannibal's level. Hasdrubal especially at the river Metarus showed himself to be an inept officer and Mago was killed in only his second important battle as a general.
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