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The bad side of Christianity

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  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The bad side of Christianity
    Posted: 06-Dec-2007 at 19:58
Originally posted by Killabee

I am agnostic so I have no preference in terms of religion.

But one thing I hate about Christianity the mostis their Christian missionary(mostly Protestant and the Mormon). They will keep knocking on your door and luring people inthe street and threatening you if You don't believe in Jesus you will burn in the Hell...etc.Although you already said"No" hundred times.


The other thing is hypocrisy. Many of their famous preachers openly voice against commitinghomosexuality and adultery in the public. In private, many of them are acutallly gayor Adulterer themselves.






I agree and cannot stand it either but as far as preachers commiting acts of homosexuality, that represents only a few and has been condemed by most Chritians.
Frankly, I thought the athiest at my former college were much more in your face than any Christian or Mormon I have ever met and there are some communist groups in the USA who would forcefully take away one's right to worship God if they could such as in Russia, China, Vietnam.
I am glad that people can express themselves but they should know when to back off so I agree with you on that point.
Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε
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  Quote Killabee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Dec-2007 at 20:58
I am agnostic so I have no preference in terms of religion.
 
But one thing I hate about Christianity the most is their Christian missionary(mostly Protestant and the Mormon). They will keep knocking on your door and luring people in the street and threatening you if You don't believe in Jesus you will burn in the Hell...etc .Although you already said"No" hundred times.
 
 
The other thing is hypocrisy. Many of their famous preachers openly voice against commiting homosexuality and adultery in the public. In private, many of them are  acutallly gayor Adulterer themselves.
 
 
 
 
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  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Nov-2007 at 01:14
Aww! the late Tammy Baker with all her make up. I saw a T-shirt with a mass of pink on it and it said, " I ran into Tammy Baker."
Benny Hinn what a fake and phony. He has created his own theology and empire.
Pat Robertson- I may not want him as presidents but some of his values, when it deals with marriage and family, I agree with. His theology is strange as well and from what I hear he believes that Christians must take control of government before the return of Christ. Can any one spell theocracy?

Originally posted by Seko

Being that we all have to make this world as good as a place as we can, more power to God fearing people and anyone else for that matter who gives a hoot.



However, for now I do have one bone to pick. Make that three.



<FONT face=Arial size=3>The bad side of Christianity:

<FONT face=Arial size=3>









Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε
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  Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Nov-2007 at 09:08

This thread, "The bad side of Christianity," along with several others, has been moved from "Intellectual Discussions" to the more appropriate "Philosophy and Theology" subforum. Sorry for any inconvenience.

-Akolouthos
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  Quote Justinian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Nov-2007 at 20:35
Originally posted by hugoestr

Justinian,

Besides some doctrines, Catholicism and Lutheranism are remarkably similar. Even the criticism about pomp and saint veneration exists within the Roman Catholics. I must add that many of these criticisms are right on the money as well, and I say that as a Roman Catholic.

My question to Pekau is that if he considers Lutherans and Anglicans, whose core doctrines are very close to Catholicism Christian or not
Gotcha.Wink
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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Nov-2007 at 18:37
Being that we all have to make this world as good as a place as we can, more power to God fearing people and anyone else for that matter who gives a hoot.
 
 
 
However, for now I do have one bone to pick. Make that three.
 
 
The bad side of Christianity:
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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  Quote arch.buff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Nov-2007 at 18:08
Originally posted by Justinian

Originally posted by hugoestr

Originally posted by pekau

Originally posted by Kapikulu

In Christianity, at least in the Roman Catholic one, how come the Pope, who is selected by a bunch of cardinals, may have rights to forgive, excommunicate etc. people in the name of God.

What is the basepoint of this?


Thanks,


This absurdity happens when men prioritize tradition like Pharisees did over the teaching of God. As I already pointed out, Catholicism is perverted version of Christianity that should not be considered part of Christianity.


What is up with your anti-Catholicism? It is disturbing. Catholicism is Christian in its doctrine.

But let me hear more about this. What about other western denomination that are very close to the Catholic Church in its doctrines and rights. Are Lutherans Christians? How about Anglicans?
My god I've finally done it, I've entered the realm of The Bad Side of Christianity Thread...Shocked
 
Allow me to bring a lutherans' perspective.Smile  The reason for the anti-catholic feelings is because of the perceived hypocrisy of catholicism.  The idea of the pope, the catholic faiths' hierarchy, all the gold and pomp of catholic churches, the defining of doctrine, the worship of mary, veneration of saints, etc.  Those are some of the reasons for a less than positive view of catholicism-- because lutheran's have the opposite ideas on all those aspects. 
 
 
 
Well Pekau, I should thank you for being rather delicate with your choice of words, most other denominations call us the "Whore of Babylon" and refer to us Catholics as Satan himself.
 
As for the Papal office or "Pope", Catholics believe this was an office instited by Christ himself (not man-made)as he also gave power and the spirit to the other Apostles(pentecost). And thru this we see Apostolic succession thru the laying on of hands.....thus as we have it today every bishop is in communion with Apostolic Succession right up to the Apostles and in turn to Christ himself. In essence, the first and only Church.
Be a servant to all, that is a quality of a King.
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  Quote hugoestr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Nov-2007 at 13:48
Justinian,

Besides some doctrines, Catholicism and Lutheranism are remarkably similar. Even the criticism about pomp and saint veneration exists within the Roman Catholics. I must add that many of these criticisms are right on the money as well, and I say that as a Roman Catholic.

My question to Pekau is that if he considers Lutherans and Anglicans, whose core doctrines are very close to Catholicism Christian or not
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  Quote Justinian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Nov-2007 at 06:43
A bad choice of words on my part, thank you for correcting me.  I edited the post to say veneration.  Lutherans don't venerate the saints at all and catholics do, hope that clears up everything.

Edited by Justinian - 01-Nov-2007 at 06:45
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Nov-2007 at 04:44
Catholics do not worship Saints, veneration and worship are two distinct categories.
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  Quote Justinian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Oct-2007 at 22:49
Originally posted by hugoestr

Originally posted by pekau

Originally posted by Kapikulu

In Christianity, at least in the Roman Catholic one, how come the Pope, who is selected by a bunch of cardinals, may have rights to forgive, excommunicate etc. people in the name of God.

What is the basepoint of this?


Thanks,


This absurdity happens when men prioritize tradition like Pharisees did over the teaching of God. As I already pointed out, Catholicism is perverted version of Christianity that should not be considered part of Christianity.


What is up with your anti-Catholicism? It is disturbing. Catholicism is Christian in its doctrine.

But let me hear more about this. What about other western denomination that are very close to the Catholic Church in its doctrines and rights. Are Lutherans Christians? How about Anglicans?
My god I've finally done it, I've entered the realm of The Bad Side of Christianity Thread...Shocked
 
Allow me to bring a lutherans' perspective.Smile  The reason for the anti-catholic feelings is because of the perceived hypocrisy of catholicism.  The idea of the pope, the catholic faiths' hierarchy, all the gold and pomp of catholic churches, the defining of doctrine, the worship of mary, veneration of saints, etc.  Those are some of the reasons for a less than positive view of catholicism-- because lutheran's have the opposite ideas on all those aspects. 
 
 


Edited by Justinian - 01-Nov-2007 at 06:44
"War is a cowardly escape from the problems of peace."--Thomas Mann

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  Quote hugoestr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Oct-2007 at 17:47
Originally posted by SuN.


Originally posted by pekau

Why bother starting this post? We already had tons of discussion like this before... Confused
Retaliation may be one of the reasons. may not be. or may be partially.


How about empathy? Being in the position that we put others in?
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  Quote hugoestr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Oct-2007 at 17:40
Originally posted by pekau

Originally posted by Kapikulu

In Christianity, at least in the Roman Catholic one, how come the Pope, who is selected by a bunch of cardinals, may have rights to forgive, excommunicate etc. people in the name of God.

What is the basepoint of this?


Thanks,


This absurdity happens when men prioritize tradition like Pharisees did over the teaching of God. As I already pointed out, Catholicism is perverted version of Christianity that should not be considered part of Christianity.


What is up with your anti-Catholicism? It is disturbing. Catholicism is Christian in its doctrine.

But let me hear more about this. What about other western denomination that are very close to the Catholic Church in its doctrines and rights. Are Lutherans Christians? How about Anglicans?
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  Quote hugoestr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Oct-2007 at 17:35
hugoestr, what happened to your avatar? I can't remember that well, but I swear I saw that person in the kid's section in Chapters....LOL


Someone snapped their fingers...
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Oct-2007 at 13:29
Originally posted by Zaitsev

It quite clearly was a form of retaliation based upon a false premise. I don't see why this thread hasn't been locked.


It was not on false premises as we clearly see that there are Christians who commit wrong as well Smile

Your argument is futile, wheter or not you can be called Christian at least theologically doesn't mean that there are people out there who do things in the name of Christ, etc.

Bombing abortion clinics isn't the Christian thing to do, and yes they have a flawed vision of things, but guess what they still are there.

Funny though when the word Islamic is inserted it somehow makes it either excusable by that religion, or not "retalitatory" to have a thread based upon false facts...
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Oct-2007 at 04:44
It quite clearly was a form of retaliation based upon a false premise. I don't see why this thread hasn't been locked.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Oct-2007 at 16:00
Originally posted by SuN.

Originally posted by pekau

Why bother starting this post? We already had tons of discussion like this before... Confused


Retaliation may be one of the reasons. may not be. or may be partially. 
This thread was started by a Christian AFAIK... retaliation is not the reason we already discussed the reason for the start of the thread...
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Oct-2007 at 15:57
Originally posted by pekau

Please don't start this again...
 
Oh but I will when you do not cite any proper academic source to back up such a fallacious claim...
 
 
 
 
Of course they will deny my point. But as I have said before, those who ignore path of Christ are not Christians (I will live with the historical definition)
 
How do you defy a Christian then? Who says that they do not? I observe many Catholics that read the bible, and follow the example of Christ, and quoute Christ, and assume their Church as a Church given unto them from Christ. Theology as well supports that.
 
PS: I am not a Catholic, so I am looking at this from a neutral persective.
 
 
 
Jesus himself warned this...
 
1The Pharisees and some of the teachers of the law who had come from Jerusalem gathered around Jesus and 2saw some of his disciples eating food with hands that were "unclean," that is, unwashed. 3(The Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they give their hands a ceremonial washing, holding to the tradition of the elders. 4When they come from the marketplace they do not eat unless they wash. And they observe many other traditions, such as the washing of cups, pitchers and kettles.[a])

 5So the Pharisees and teachers of the law asked Jesus, "Why don't your disciples live according to the tradition of the elders instead of eating their food with 'unclean' hands?"

 6He replied, "Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written:
   " 'These people honor me with their lips,
      but their hearts are far from me.
 7They worship me in vain;
      their teachings are but rules taught by men.'[b] 8You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men."

 9And he said to them: "You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe[c] your own traditions! 

Mark 7:1-9 
 
27Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.

 28Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

Matthew 23:27-28
 
 
I will just say that by reading this I have not been convinced of your point, rather I see examples of what a Christian would be, and from what I have gathered Catholics fit into that category so far.
 
 
 
 
I will just throw in some examples. Until 1960s, all Catholic students had to eat fish on Friday because eating meat on Friday is considered sinful. Then along cam Vatican II and declared that it was no longer a sin to eat meat on Friday. One week it's a sin, and the next it was not?
 
Is it not that the protestant churches broke away from a longstanding tradition of Catholic Christianity? I am not saying that there is anything wrong with that, but with the mindless pandering you are displaying here. It is wrong for one to "reform" their views and beliefs, but not for the other because if I am correct Jesus is credited with giving the "keys to this kingdom" to Peter the first bishop of Rome. So theologically Catholics can make a claim on their Christianity.
 
 
 
Calibacy of the priesthood. Why against it? Bible clearly said...
 
 
18And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
 
 24Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
 
Genesis 2: 18, 24
 
You just earlier claimed that following the way of Christ is the truth, who according to the Bible, and most versions of Christaintiy that I know off was CELIBATE. So for a member of the clergy would it not be theologically sound to follow that Christ in all ways one can including celibacy?
 
 
 
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  Quote SuN. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Oct-2007 at 06:10
Originally posted by pekau

Why bother starting this post? We already had tons of discussion like this before... Confused


Retaliation may be one of the reasons. may not be. or may be partially. 
God is not great.
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  Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Oct-2007 at 05:28
Pekau,
 
I would be careful about saying people aren't Christians--especially if I were denying certain basic scriptural doctrines. You are not living the "historical definition" of Christianity; indeed, such a claim from someone who denies the value of God inspired tradition is laughable at best. For did our Lord Jesus Christ not state:
 
However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak and He will tell you things to come. [John 16: 13]
 
You fail to take into account the very real shift between the Old Covenant and the New. Though we may still err--after all, we are mere mortals--we, as an ecclesial body, have the promise of divine inspiration. You make no distinction between the sacred, God led Tradition of the Church and the traditions of men. For that matter, you are in desperate need of a familiarization with the whole of Scripture, and not just certain evangelical proof texts, as we shall see in a moment.
 
First let us address your attempt to assail the very idea of "tradition" itself. We really don't need to address your "proof" texts at this point, because they all rely on the same, rather careless--and, unfortunately, all too common--flaw: that of refusing to recognize the distinction between God inspired tradition and the "traditions of men." What we do need to do is to see how the misinterpretation of certain passages of Scripture, along with the casual dismissal of other parts, leads to a disastrous perversion of the Christian Faith--the same type of perversion that you accuse others of making. Perhaps the best way of illustrating the dangers of such a perspective is to address three specific issues which have come up in this thread: the sacrament of confession, fasting,  and the celibacy of priests.
 
The first issue which we shall address is confession--and we shall not take long. The sacrament of confession, which was the issue that was initially raised--and which led to your rather cavalier dismissal of Romanism--has a solid basis in both Scripture and Tradition. For did our lord not say to the Apostles that:
 
And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector. Assuredly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven. [Matthew 18: 17-18]
 
Christ goes on to describe the power Christians have when gathered together. This is absolutely essential, for we are a community. Sin affects the entire ecclesial community. As I recall, this is one of the very few (2?) times in Scripture where Christ actually talks about a "church." That should say something to you about what He is trying to emphasize here. Well, the priest is the sacramental guardian of the community, and acts as its representative, in accordance with the powers granted to the Apostles by Christ, and by the Apostles to the Church.
 
As for fasting, I think you need to clarify--both for my benefit, as well as your own--your issues with the practice. I am actually upset that the Roman Church has placed less emphasis on this essential part of Christian spirituality over the past several decades. I assure you that the practice of fasting is, indeed, Scriptural, for did our Lord not say:
 
But the days will come when the bridegroom will be taken away from them, and then they will fast in those days. [Mark 2: 20]
 
That said, it can become legalistic (Pharasaical), but I would say that the various denials of this very real pillar of the spiritual life by certain evangelicals is much more detrimental than the actions of those who seek--although, unfortunately, legalistically--to follow what is an essential part of true spirituality. It is the difference between following Christ's command wrongly, and refusing to follow it at all.
 
The celibacy of priests is one area where you and I would find ourselves in agreement, at least to some extent. Still, by taking a couple of passages of Scripture out of context, I believe you have missed the overall message. The common evangelical "proof" texts give the impression that everyone must be married, which both you and I would agree simply isn't the case. This is why it is better to take the whole of Scripture, as well as the historical guidance of the Church by the Holy Spirit, into account. Anyway, if you do still need an example that states that it is fine for a minister of God to be unmarried, you need turn no further than St. Paul's letter to the Corinthians, where he states:
 
Now concerning the things of which you wrote to me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman. Nevertheless, because of sexual immorality, let each man have his own wife, and let each woman have her own husband. [I Cor. 7: 1-2]
 
which is further contextualized by that which follows...
 
But I say to the unmarried and to the widows: It is good for them if they remain even as I am; but if they cannot exercise self-control, let them marry. For it is better to marry than to burn with passion. [I Cor. 7: 8-9]
 
Even our Lord endorsed the honorable path chosen by men "who have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake," continuing,   "He who is able to accept it, let him accept it."
 
If you wish, we could delve into exegesis--for surely you will admit that the path from the Book to the mind is subject (without the aid of the Spirit) to all of the pitfalls that affect human comprehension in other contexts. You will pardon me if I take the perspective of the God inspired fathers of the Church over more recent... innovations.
 
-Akolouthos


Edited by Akolouthos - 30-Oct-2007 at 05:35
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