About the Reconquista

Hello Mahrabbal

Hello Mahrabbal

Originally posted by Al Jassas Hello Regi   Firts of all, I wasn't hesitant t mention his name, I just didn't understand which sources did you want me to mention.   Second, I checked other sources, primary sources that is, and these confirmed what he has mentioned. the Ummayyads did indeed want to withdraw from Iberia altogether and I think I posted a link to an article in one of the previous posts so lease check.   Third, he was Druze, he wasn't a muslim. Druze claim to be muslims but they are not recognised by either Sunnis or Shia. He was however and Ottomanist which explains why he wasn't killed by Jamal Pasha in 1916. After the fall he wasn't againstEuropean imperialism, he was against colonisation.   Fourth, the conquests and raides did happen, I mentioned sources other than his own so please go and check them. If you want more I will give you more.   Fifth, read Hugh Kennedy, his specialty is the muslim rule of Spain and he does confirm much of what I and Arslan said.   Sixth, please list all your objections so that I can properly respond to them. I will look into more sources and I am already looking into others.   Finally, hope you get an A+ in your course or what ever is the best grade you can get in the far north!   Al-Jassas

Thanks.

I am planning to read Hugh Kennedy and I bought "The Great Arab Conquests" a few weeks ago.

Hello Regi

Hello Again!

My bad Reinaud's book was published 6 and not 4 years after the conquest of Algeria started (1836, but the conquest lasted 30 years and the colonization 100 more).

I never said that Charlemagne "took" Barcelona in 777, I just said he was under the walls of the city meaning his army was setting a siege but did not manage to take Barcelona. The fact that he was there anyway kind of indicates that the Septimania was no longer under Muslim rule.

Regarding the Ummeyyad administration, I am ready to admit I am no specialist, but be merciful and teach me how they installed it in a backward stretch of land located three chains of mountains away from their capital city, in less than 20 year while there was only a handful of them and they were more interested in fighting amongst each other than anything else.

Originally posted by Al Jassas Which author you mean, I mentioned the books and authors he took information from above also I mentioned that I read a translation of the work by Ferdinand Keller above.

You still haven't told me who the scholar behind this theory is, or what his credentials are, and if you don't tell me with the next post I'll just give up and dismiss all these claims. Sigh.


Everything is wrong with it, since being a professional historian in the 19th century was not the same as being a professional historian now. Gibbon too is outdated and today his work is of mainly artistic and historiographical value, it's not by any means considered a masterpiece of Roman history as far as modern historical scholarship goes. What you are saying here severly weakens my confidence in your claims.


Edited by Reginmund - 12-Apr-2008 at 00:27

Originally posted by Al Jassas   First of all, Arabs did conquere France, the problem was that they were defeated. Septimania was ruled for some 50 years.

There is a difference between Septimania and France. Septimania is more or less what is nowadays Languedoc-Roussilllon. That's less than 10% of the territory. During the 8th century an important process was taking place, the shift from South to North of the economic and political centre of gravity of the "country". Aquitaine was quickly loosing its might to the princes of the North and it is likely that it had to pay tribute to the Ummayyads for a while.

Al-Andalus military command had a network of posts on the regions that bordered those conquered territoy and established outposts as far as Autun in Burgundy. Anbasa's death after Autun ushered a civil war between Berbers and Arabs in it the Arab population of Septimania were massacred and Arabs retreated to the lower parts of Al-Andalus.

Once more you are mistaking a raid with a conquest. There was a raid on Autun but by no mean a "network of posts". Do you have any idea where Autun is? It is over 400km from Septimania through mountainous terrain. They would have had less than 30 year to build this network with a handful of men and no central authority.
 

Al Jassas, as Leornado remarks there is a difference between the raid and the conquest.

The Muslims from Spain (likely recent converts or even still Chistians from the pirate stronghold of Pechina) did conquer Fraxinatum and held it. That's a handful of villages with a bunch of 50 to 300 pirates very similar to the numerous "arrrghnachies" (I did not invent that word for pirate republic) that presented themselves at various periods in the history of the Mediterranean as soon as central power was weakened.

Other strongholds of Muslim pirates existed in Italy. Beyond the southern tip that they had conquered.

No please use your logic: how 300 pirates could possibly held all the land from Marseilles to St Gall in Switzerland? They could conquer a city, be a useful bunch of mercenaries in feudal wars and help Alpine passes for months to racket the dwellers. But conquering thousands of squared kilometers was just impossible.

Besides, if you refer yourself to the annals of the cities of Aix, Marseilles, Toulon and Frejus, as well as those of the lords of Uc de Blaye, Maison de Fos and Riculfe they do mention the attacks from the Fraxinet pirates but no conquest.

These are the confirmed attacks: Toulon, Antibes, Nice, Grand St Bernard (several times), Novalaise (906), Sisteron (911), Embrun (919), Asti (919), Acqui (919 and again 935), Apt (923), Aix (923), Marseille (923), Grenoble (930), Arles (934) and St Gall (939). They were a scourge, but a small one, easily defeated in combat by alliances of the region's noblemen (which admittedly were rarely allied).

Finally, try not to refer to a book published in 1834, it doesn't look too serious. History has changed a lot since.

Source: SENAC Ph. Provence et piraterie sarrasine, Paris: 1982.
PICARD Ch. La mer et les musulmans d'Occident au Moyen Age (VIIIe-XIIIe si�cle), Paris: 1997.

Which author you mean, I mentioned the books and authors he took information from above also I mentioned that I read a translation of the work by Ferdinand Keller above. As for muslims raiders holding parts of Italy, Switzerland and France, this is a fact. Reinaud ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Toussaint_Reinaud )wrote a book and here its name in French "Invasion Des Sarrazins En France et De France en Savoie, en Piemont et dans La Suisse Pandant les huitieme, neuvieme et dixieme siecles de notre ere. D'apres Les auteurs Chretiens et Mahometans" or "invasions of the Arabs on France and from France on Switzerland, Piedmont, Savoy in the 8th,9th and 10th centuries from muslims and christian authors". At Fraxinetum, the Arabs arrived there in 891 and were only driven out in 975. Between those two dates, the great St Bernard ass was taken in 920, Grenoble in 953, a raid reached as far as Chur canton in 936. It was in 956 that nobles started a campaign against them taken Grenoble back in 956 and the great St Bernard pass about the same time effectively splitting them into two. Fraxinetum was finally taken in 975.