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Should evolution or creationism be tought in schools?

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Poll Question: Which one?
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  Quote aknc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Should evolution or creationism be tought in schools?
    Posted: 27-Mar-2005 at 14:12

Firstly i trake it back,it S fun.Relativism is a subject so boring and long that would take all the fun out of it.In miswrote relatvism not rationalism.This subject is about that there is no ceartain truth but only a point of view.Secondly your question "is it more likely there is a god or no god",i belive none is more likely for neither is an easy one to prove.At first atheism will look like that it is closer to the truth but like i said before,the claim that god exists does not need hoc moves to survive so the theory of the belivers is also respectable. 

"I am the scourage of god appointed to chastise you,since no one knows the remedy for your iniquity exept me.You are wicked,but I am more wicked than you,so be silent!"
              
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  Quote hugoestr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Mar-2005 at 23:22
Originally posted by aknc

this is rationalism,its very boring and not a good example for the discussion of god.This discussion is particularly nasty since nobody wins.But in your example it is most likely that it will not rain.


I was not arguing for or against the existence of God on my last post. I was answering your question. You asked a question: "can we argue what is more likely to be true, without proving that it is true?" And my post was an answer to that question. Once we got that hurdle out of the way, we can now ask the question:

Is it more likely that there is a god or that there is no god?

I would like you to explain what you mean by "rationalism."

Personally, I think this thread is a lot fun! Of course no one will win, but it is fun to work through the problem.
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  Quote aknc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Mar-2005 at 10:39
this is rationalism,its very boring and not a good example for the discussion of god.This discussion is particularly nasty since nobody wins.But in your example it is most likely that it will not rain.
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  Quote hugoestr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Mar-2005 at 16:30
I think that one can decide which one is more likely to be true without having to prove our it.

Let me give you an example. I can say, for example, that it is likely that it will rain in Washington D.C. within an hour. If you live in Washington D.C., you could open the window look at the sky and say: you are crazy! There are no clouds in the sky, the air is dry, and we have been in a drought for three months.

We cannot be sure if I am wrong. None of us can prove that I am wrong. Yet, under the above scenario it is more likely that I am wrong than that I am right.
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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Mar-2005 at 14:33
Originally posted by hugoestr

Originally posted by aknc

Not really.Unless you explore and find out about anything and everything,you can't prove god does not exist


But it is more likely, with what we know, that god doesnt exist. No one can prove that Santa Clause doesnt exist either, yet most sane adults will say that he is not real.

If we can only have beliefs, are we going to believe that which is likely or unlikely? Now the task is much easier for believers: they just have to prove that it is more likely that god exists than it is that god does not exist.


Maybe Santa did'nt give you any presents when you were a kid.

Now onto the more serious note:  Perhaps it is most likely that you do not know and you chose not to believe. Thats fine. I think believers have already proven to themselves that God exists, that is why they are called believers. The rest is up to you.
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  Quote aknc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Mar-2005 at 13:35
How can you decide wich is more likely without proving anything?
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  Quote hugoestr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Mar-2005 at 13:27
Originally posted by aknc

Not really.Unless you explore and find out about anything and everything,you can't prove god does not exist


But it is more likely, with what we know, that god doesnt exist. No one can prove that Santa Clause doesnt exist either, yet most sane adults will say that he is not real.

If we can only have beliefs, are we going to believe that which is likely or unlikely? Now the task is much easier for believers: they just have to prove that it is more likely that god exists than it is that god does not exist.
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  Quote aknc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Mar-2005 at 13:26

christianity claims that the pope,priests... also speak to god and get signs from him.Islam says that god will give his last sign by sending jesus back to earth

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  Quote SearchAndDestroy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Mar-2005 at 12:38

The bible says god showed himself in the past as a burning bush, or spoke to people. Nowadays we don't get any such signs from any gods, and those who say they really talk to god and talk back to him and can have a convo usually are found in a mental institute. So there when theres no real hard evidence then I say its not real. The human imagination is to powerful and people seem to give in to easily, if there is any life after death I have a feeling people will be disappointed that there will be no heaven or hell.

I mean whats to say even if there is a afterlife, that humans didn't just set up another ruling government for the dead.

 

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  Quote aknc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Mar-2005 at 11:52
Not really.Unless you explore and find out about anything and everything,you can't prove god does not exist
"I am the scourage of god appointed to chastise you,since no one knows the remedy for your iniquity exept me.You are wicked,but I am more wicked than you,so be silent!"
              
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  Quote Capt. Lubber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Mar-2005 at 11:36
Well, prove to me that my late dog hasn't turned to chocolate and descended to the middle of the earth, and we all live on his mercy now. Could probably make some crazy guy be his prophet and whip up a book on it. Would that make it so?

In this regard atheist are "righter" than believers. Of course we can say that something we never experience or see, or is otherwise impossible to prove doesn't exists. It would be the believers who had to prove god's existance.

I think you might find that troublesome
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  Quote hugoestr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Mar-2005 at 09:10
Many people have said that during this thread that there is no way to prove that God doesnt exist. I agree with that position. At the same time, I have to admit too that the idea of a world without God is more plausible than one with God.

I will start a new thread to explore this issue.

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  Quote aknc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Mar-2005 at 06:02

Originally posted by Capt. Lubber

Atheism isn't a belief, it is the lack of one.

Wrong.Atheism is a belief because even if god des or doesn't exist,you can't prove anything.You can neither prove god exists or doesn't exist.It is impossible to prove both ways.So,atheism is a belief.

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  Quote SearchAndDestroy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Mar-2005 at 19:07

Actually there is a evolution that can be viewed besides with bacteria.

Heres a example of re-evolution, its shows DNA always holds the make up for what was past and if its ever needed again, for a advantage in nature, it can come back. Now this species didn't have wings for 50 MILLION years.

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/01/15/1042520672205.html ?oneclick=true

This isn't the site with the info I wanted, but its the same two species. One species of stick bug evolved in two, one grew a stripe, but did come from a species that didn't have it. This happened recently, well within 10-15 years and I beleave its called rapid evolution.

http://www.smithsonianmag.si.edu/smithsonian/issues02/oct02/ phenomena.html

Heres one last example: http://www.dinosauria.com/jdp/evol/lizard.html

Now for religeon, while religeon isn't always the reason for war, it seems to be used for a major tool for war. A few examples, like in the crusades the Pope called on knights, he said that all knights who would fight for the cause and went to the holy land would get redemption and go to heaven no questions asked. Now knowing that knights fight and kill all the time, according to their religeon they'd be going to hell. So ofcourse every knight went, it was their profession basicly to fight and kill but none wanted to goto hell.

WW2, Hitler said jews were evil, just because of their religeon, and because of religeon millions were killed, just for what they beleaved in. Now if Judaism didn't exist these people might have all lived, ofcourse another group would have been chosen, but I'm willing to bet it wouldn't have been as easy of a target as the jews were.

Now-a-days Osama bin laden called a jihad, so muslims who probably wouldn't have joined felt the need to, they were taught not to allow the Christians who defended thejews into their holy lands. The terrorist, insurgents, or whatever you want to call them always claim they are working for their god and beleave when they die they will be given a spot in heaven and virgin wives.

So to me religeon is away for propaganda, so bring people raised in their religeon to fight for a cause that they probably wouldn't do if taught differently. Religeon is dangerous, there are other spiritual paths to take. But having a god who can sit back and allow his own people to fight, to hardwire brutal intentions in our minds that come to us so naturally so it seems, but then says not to kill?

Evolution made us a competitor, we evolved to fight and its what made us survive. We are a exploring species always leaping forward in technology to reach for what we want, we are a species of curiosty always wanting to know whats beyond a point, and we are a species of war, the farther down the line we go we still have wars perhaps tribal instincts embedded in our minds that evolution hasn't taken out, a primal instinct.

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  Quote Teup Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Mar-2005 at 16:02

Originally posted by eaglecap

The problem with evolution is there is no evidence of Macro evolutiion or one species slowly evolving into another.

This has 2 causes:

1. If it's true, one still can't directly observe this as it's a slow process and "you can't observe a chance unless the chance is already underway". But maybe this is what you meant with 'problem'.

2. 'Species' doesn't have a proper definition, it's kind of arbitrary. What's your definition?

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  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Mar-2005 at 15:45
Originally posted by SearchAndDestroy

"Your argument is weak becuse you have a closed mind, but I will agree that religion should not be taught in public schools although I see no problem bringing up, briefly, the theory or belief in creation. I have taken many biology classes and it is still a theory and not a fact!!! Not all wars were fought over religion but in fact most are for socioecconomic reasons, for power and land. Religion is often a good excuse but no matter people would still find reasons to kill each other without religion. I prefer to steer from oraganized religion but I do believe in God. If you want to believe in evolution then it is by faith and not fact but I respect your choice. If you can prove it then Dr. Hovind will give you a large sum of money."


I wouldn't say I'm closed minded, I went to a catholic school and thats where I came to the conclusion it wasn't real but more of a fairy tale like the hundred other religeons either before or after christianity. I beleave Judaism or Islam, not sure which order they came in, came from a Egyption religeon that didn't last long at all where for the first time a pharoah said there was one god, after he died his followers went into hiding that still beleaved and the religeon was broken up. From there I beleave it all just evolved into Judaism and Islam, from Judaism came Christianity, whether it was from Jesus or if Jesus was just chosen as a poster boy idk.


Theres a whole lot more proof of evolution then there will ever be of a god existing. They just keep finding more and more proof of evolution. Infact earlier this month or late last month they found some skeletons in ethopia linking some bon es. They also found another set of bones in south asia of another human sub-species that they nicknamed a hobit.


Its just hard for me to beleave in a religeon that has so many sub groups I guess you can say so that it better fits how people feel or to move with science since they can't really prove wrong except make up explanations on dinosuars being around with humans when theres more evidence and its a known fact of what time period they were from and that they were from a time period of pre-primape species'.


Its known that the moon was made after a mars sized rock slammed into earth. So during the 7 days we were created a few million years later a asteroid hit earth that would kill everyone and everything, and yet we just magicly poped up again? Well I guess its possible since someone did make a planet in 7 days.....


Alright I have to stop or i'll be hijacking this topic further... All I want to really say is its beyond me how people can still beleave in a god, or a religeon with such violent histories. But I will also respect the people, just not the religeon.



Thank you for sharing! I understand and I agree with some of the things you stated. I went to a Baptist elementry school and they did teach it like a fairy tale although they included aspects of evolution. I avoid organized religion but I have studied history enough to know that even without religion people would still kill each other, it is our nature. I avoid organized religion but I spend a lot of time in the wild and I see the hand of a creator everywhere I look.
Maybe when we evolve spiritually enough the concept of God will be no big deal. I argue off and on with my Christain friends but I support freedom of thought and religion.
The problem with evolution is there is no evidence of Macro evolutiion or one species slowly evolving into another. I agree in micro evolution or adaption such as the Polar bears who developed webbed feet but they are still bears. Maybe it is all an illusion-
The argument can go on forever so if you want to believe in this theory then I respect that.
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  Quote Teup Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Mar-2005 at 11:11

I'm not saying I'm religious, I'm saying you are . But that's just what I believe, so.. hmm that makes me religious as well  I think everyone either believes something or does not, in the 'not' case is not atheism but agnosticism. Your inner core is my bark. My bark is your inner core. I just wanted to point that out, the "inner core" is no mathematical truth, it depends on your perspective 

I'm just an agnost most of the time by the way, different views don't bother me, the only thing that bothers me is fundamentalism (in any religion, including (and especially sometimes) atheism the way I see it), but I think all posts in this topic have been great

And no more votes for creationism 



Edited by Teup
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  Quote Capt. Lubber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Mar-2005 at 10:41
Great Then we'll just agree to disagree! I understand quite perfectly where you're coming from, and you understand where I'm coming from. I will never talk you into coming over to the dark side, and I will never be religious.

Just needed to get all of that off my chest

I believe religion is based on assumption, and that atheism is the "inner core" of things

Edited by Capt. Lubber
Loke, Attila, the grete conqueror,
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Bleedinge ay at the nose in dronkenesse,
A captayin shoulde live in sobrenesse
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  Quote Teup Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Mar-2005 at 10:35

I hear you, but that's exactly what I don't agree with.

Originally posted by Capt. Lubber

When you strip away all religions, atheism is what you are left with, it is like a tree trunk is to branches. 

That's the epicentre where we don't agree. I think atheism is based on an assumption, just like other religions are based on assumptions. One example, atheists will believe there's "nothing" after death, whereas Buddhists will believe in reincarnation. Now, it might seem the "nothing" is the base, and that reincarnation is a belief diverting from that, like you'd argue, but I think it's not. You could view it the other way around just as well. Looking at nature, everything moves in cycles and nothing is lost or added. Reincarnation could be the 'base', and the "nothing" would be the alternative assumption, the alternative belief. You see? Neither have evidence (if there is evidence on post mortem acitivity, let's disregard it for the moment), it comes down to what basic assumtion you make. Both are equal assumptions IMO. Now of course, it mustn't get in the way of actual fact. But on areas there is no scientific evidence or research, all explainations and assumptions are just as fine to me.

Back on the evolution/creationism topic; To me creationism does seem to get in the way of fact. That's why I think it should not be taught. I think evolution should be taught because it's the leading theory; it is either right (which i assume) or it will be rejected in the future by scientists that were taught this theory, so they were familiar with it and could reject it rightfully. Win-win.

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  Quote Dawn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Mar-2005 at 10:32
well I for one understand what you were saying  perfectly and agree whole heartedly.
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