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Topic ClosedWho are the descendants of ancient Scythi
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kotumeyil View Drop Down
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Posts: 1494 		Direct Link To This Post Topic: Who are the descendants of ancient Scythi
    Posted: 12-Dec-2005 at 17:40
There's another thread ongoing on this topic so I'm closing this one...

Edited by kotumeyil
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Posts: 132 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Dec-2005 at 22:19
Paul Nazaroff "Hunted Through Central Asia - On the run from Lenin's Secret Police"  Oxford University Press 1993, 2002. First published in 1932.

p.87
"...In the history of the Turki peoples such women of marked personality have played a very important part. There is not the slightest reason to cast suspicion upon the story of Herodotus about the Queen of the Massagetae, Tomyris, who beat the conqueror of Asia, the Persian Emperor Cyrus himself. Historians regard the whole story as a myth, but it fits in perfectly well with everything we know about these nomad peoples of Asia. There is no doubt, as Professor Mischenko thinks, that the Scythian tribe of Massagetae were nothing more nor less than the ancestors of the Kazakh of to-day in the Turgai Province, where the name survives in the River Massagatka and the mountain Mussagat.
But for our great superiority in armament, who knows but that our great hero General Skobeleff would have met the fate of Cyrus. The name of Tomyris, like other Scythian names, is of Turki origin. This name, Tomyris, means "crush iron' or 'bend iron,' from temir, iron; and recalls another famous warrior out of Asia, Temir-leng, Temir the Lame, or Tamerlane, a remote descendant of his famous compatriot Tomyris. If one carefully reads Herodotus's account of the Amazons and their origin, the inevitable conclusion is that these Amazons were the wives of just the same Turki nomads whose menfolk had gone off on some military expedition to some remote district. The first syllable of their very name is a Turki word, conveying the idea of woman. In the same way his remarkable description of the Scythians, their manners and customs, does not leave any room for doubt that he was describing the ancestors of that same people which is to-day called Kazakh, and from the most remote dawn of antiquity has inhabited the steppes of Southern Russian and Western Siberia."
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Posts: 0 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Dec-2005 at 20:07

There is not enough material from Scythian mumies. We don`t now where they have gone.The oldest kurgans are 2800 years old. The Scythians should be live in Ukraine in III . It is 1000 years  and big area. Were they still the same nation?
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Posts: 1207 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Dec-2005 at 16:46
Originally posted by Zagros

How ironic and sad, Caucasus Azeris and Armenians are most closely related and are worst enemies.



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Posts: 8792 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Dec-2005 at 16:43

How ironic and sad, Caucasus Azeris and Armenians are most closely related and are worst enemies.
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Posts: 6565 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Dec-2005 at 16:38
Originally posted by Anbalan

Originally posted by Akskl

OK. Can anybody present any genetic links between Scythians, Sarmatians and modern Iranians or Ossetians, please?

If you are good in interpeting DNA data, I give you an article about MtDNA data of Caucasus population http://www.netrover.com/~rous1/cauc.pdf . I do not know much in the subject, so I might mistake. But what I see from the "Dimension1" plot is the Kazakh,  Kyrgyz and Turk are very distant from Iranians (Iran Isfahun and Iran Tegeran). However look how close Russians, Chekians, other Slavic nations and nations of Caucasus are to Iranians. How come, if all those Scythians, Sarmatians, etc were genetically like Kazakh or Turk, almost all population of Caucasus, Russia and Eastern Europe are so close to Iranians by MtDNA?



An interesting paper indeed. Most relevant seems the following comments in the "discussion":

In particular, Indo-European speaking Armenians and Turkic-speaking Azerbaijanians are genetically most closely related (for both mtDNA and the Y-chromosome) to other Caucasus groups and not to other Indo-European or Turkic-speaking groups (Figures 2A, 2B).

...

We suggest that the Y-chromosome results may reflect recent "invading" migrations from the Near East that probably mostly involved males.

(Though I suspect that it doesn't need to be recent ones).

...

To explain why mtDNA variation (but not the Y-chromosome) places the Caucasus in an intermediate position between Europe and West Asia, we suggest that this reflects a common ancestry of Caucasus and European populations. This common ancestry could date back to pre-Neolithic times, as suggested by Renfrew (Renfrew, 1992) who considered Caucasian languages to reflect human dispersal over 15,000 years ago.

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Posts: 6565 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Dec-2005 at 15:29
Originally posted by DayI

"Forget about genetics. We just don't have enough data on Scythians."

But they (and you) have enough "data" to call whole western Turkey as hellenic people to be "Turkifed" and the eastern as kurdish also to be "Turkifed"....



I never said that they were Hellic people "tukified" but rather native people, genetically simmilar to Greeks, hellenized in Antiquity and turkizied in a more recent period. Apart of historical data, I base that in modern peoples' genetics, which shows that there are no major significative diferences at both sides of the Aegean. But I'm not using the genetics of Solon or Osman or the peoples that lived in their time. I just don't have it.

The same happens with Scythians: apart of a singular case, that of the Ice Lady, that has given her MtDNA, we don't have any genetic data of ancient scythians (at least that I know of). The main diference is that, while Anatolia has been always a densely settled country, dwelt by deeply rooted farmers, Kazakhstan is instead a semi-desert traditionally dwelt by nomads. While it's dificult to think how Anatolia could have suffered a widespread demic modification, it's not impossible that this could have happened in Khazakstan.

I don't have data for Central-Asian MtDNA, which may shed more light, but the data of Y-chromosome DNA (male lineages) shows that Kazakhstan is surprisingly simmilar to Mongolia in this regard (see THIS MAP or THIS ONE). But the "eastern connection" almost ends there, with clearly diferent cakes for Uzbekistan, Kirgizistan and Turkmenistan. The Y-chr differences are also highlighted in THIS GRAPHIC, which shows Kazakhs very close to Mongols, the rest of Central Asian Turkmen in a separated group of many branches, except Kirguiz that are shown close to Tajiks and other IEs, and Western Turks (shown as Turkish) in a diferent branch close to Azeri, Iranian and other Near Eastern peoples (and not far from Greeks and other Europeans either).


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Posts: 8792 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Dec-2005 at 15:08
Originally posted by Anbalan

Originally posted by Akskl

Can anybody present any proofs that Scythians and Sarmatians were Iranian speakers, please?

Can anybody present any proofs that Scythians and Sarmatians were Turkic speakers, please?  

There are links between Slavic and Iranic languages that are beyond mere common IE root, like proper Iranian words that should not be there had not the Western Scyths and Sarmatians been Iranic, because we know Kurds, Persians or other groups did not settled in Slavic Europe, but we know Scytho-Saramtians did.

As for genetics, I think it would be a better met to test the Y chromosome of modern Khazaks and check them against Y-Chromosome of Scyth mummies.
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Posts: 58 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Dec-2005 at 12:52

Originally posted by Akskl

OK. Can anybody present any genetic links between Scythians, Sarmatians and modern Iranians or Ossetians, please?

If you are good in interpeting DNA data, I give you an article about MtDNA data of Caucasus population http://www.netrover.com/~rous1/cauc.pdf . I do not know much in the subject, so I might mistake. But what I see from the "Dimension1" plot is the Kazakh,  Kyrgyz and Turk are very distant from Iranians (Iran Isfahun and Iran Tegeran). However look how close Russians, Chekians, other Slavic nations and nations of Caucasus are to Iranians. How come, if all those Scythians, Sarmatians, etc were genetically like Kazakh or Turk, almost all population of Caucasus, Russia and Eastern Europe are so close to Iranians by MtDNA?



Edited by Anbalan
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Posts: 2408 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Dec-2005 at 12:29

"Forget about genetics. We just don't have enough data on Scythians."

But they (and you) have enough "data" to call whole western Turkey as hellenic people to be "Turkifed" and the eastern as kurdish also to be "Turkifed"....
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Posts: 58 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Dec-2005 at 11:31

Originally posted by Akskl

OK. Can anybody present any genetic links between Scythians, Sarmatians and modern Iranians or Ossetians, please?

It is very strange request. What would you do with those "genetic links"? Ossetians are more likely to be descendents of Alans than any ones else. As I understand there is no genetic alalysis held about genetics of Alans. But I do not see it woud be even reasonable to do, because there is a huge lot of historic material (Georgian, Armenian, Arabic, etc.) proving Ossetians are directly related to Alans by land and historical mission. As Alans are likely to be related to Ossetians, Sarmatians are to be so also, because Alans were a Sarmatian tribe. I have looked through some Turkic theories about Alans being Turks, but I have not found serious arguments supporting those theories. As a rule the theories do not match geography and historical events of Alans. That is about Alans. Some of Turkic historians say Ossetians are descendents of Aorsi, but not Alans. Anyway Aorsi are a Sarmatian tribe also. I would not say Scythians were Iranians with high level of confidence. I can understand there are to few details about them, but Sarmatians are to be Iranians with almost no doubt. However can you give us such "genetic" material, which can prove Sarmatians to be Turks?



Edited by Anbalan
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Posts: 6565 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Dec-2005 at 20:39
Forget about genetics. We just don't have enough data on Scythians.

We know that the ice lady, asociated to Pazyrk culture, considered Scythian by many, has MtDNA that links apparently with Finnish peoples of NE Europe. It's a single sample anyhow and nothing more can be said about it, as Finnish aren't Turkic either and NE Europe could have almost any mixture of genes.

Only MtDNA can be extracted from ancient bones easily, I believe, while Y-chromosome DNA is near impossible to rescue from ancient remains.

In the same Pazyrk culture we find the image of a rider that definitively doesn't look Mongoloid but Caucasoid (large nose, curled hair...).

It's very odd anyhow, because that culture is very far east (Altai) for the extension of classical Scythian culture.

Other non-native drawings of Scythians depict them also with Caucasoid features and, more important, with a typical Phrygian hat, found not just among Phrygians but also among Iranians.

Said all that, we can't totally exclude that among Scythians at some point there could be sme Turkic tribes or individuals but we have no indication that it could be that way. Do you?

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Posts: 132 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Dec-2005 at 18:50
OK. Can anybody present any genetic links between Scythians, Sarmatians and modern Iranians or Ossetians, please?
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Posts: 58 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Dec-2005 at 13:14

Originally posted by kobalt

if you think they didn`t speak iranian, then it must be russian or protoukrainian.
You can not put Slavs near China. Our language are close to Balts, German and we have same symilarity to iranian. Thats mean we were not far a way of them.

I speak the both Russian and Ossetian. I bet they are enough close for me to think either Russian is Iranian or Ossetian is Slavic. English and German are also close to Ossetian in comparison to Latin languages. However Russian is closer to our language. I think Russian is closer to Ossetian than to Baltic languages such as Latvian, for example. But I am not a lingvist, it is based on impression.
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Posts: 58 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Dec-2005 at 13:05

Originally posted by Akskl

Can anybody present any proofs that Scythians and Sarmatians were Iranian speakers, please?

Can anybody present any proofs that Scythians and Sarmatians were Turkic speakers, please?  
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Posts: 0 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Dec-2005 at 03:23
if you think they didn`t speak iranian, then it must be russian or protoukrainian.
You can not put Slavs near China. Our language are close to Balts, German and we have same symilarity to iranian. Thats mean we were not far a way of them.
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Posts: 6565 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Dec-2005 at 00:16
See: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5839& ;PN=1

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Posts: 132 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Dec-2005 at 23:52
Can anybody present any proofs that Scythians and Sarmatians were Iranian speakers, please?
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Posts: 6565 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Dec-2005 at 16:25
Originally posted by kobalt

Where are Turks in scythians time?  Where they lived 2500 years ago?



This is an excellent question that I would also like to have answered. It's clearto me that Scytho-Sarmatians were IE-speakers and that they eventually were displaced/conquered/assimilated by Turkic peoples.

The first rather clear reference to Turks are the Huns/Xiongnu. Who are first located in Eastern Central Asia (UNESCO description) and then in all steppary Asia, from Manchuria to the Caucasus. Whatever the origins of the Xiongnu core, it's likely that, like Gengis Khan later, they confederated many Turkic tribes and brought them into empire building.

In anys case it seems clear that Turkic-speakers  replaced IE-speaking Scythians in the steppes since (the lattest) 300 BCE. Of course, I assume that many people considered Scythians and other ethncities were assimilated, even if the steppary enviroment and way of life provide for easier demic change, as probably happened at least in Kazakhstan, whose population seems almost identical to Mongolians genetically.

It's been argued in another topic that most of the tribes that Gengis unified were not true Mongols but actually Turks. So maybe Mongolia and nearby regions is not a bad place to look for Turkic origins, specially considering the genetic  identity between Mongols and Khazaks and the scarce early historical references.


Modern distribution of Turkic languages


Western Hunnic Empire (Attila)


Gokturk Khanates and their areas of influence (dark shades).

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Posts: 58 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Dec-2005 at 11:45

Article is in Russian:

http://osradio.ru/2005/10/01/pod_lipetskom_raskopali_unikaln oe_zaxoronenie_sarmatskoj_tsaritsy/#cut1

It is about an archelogical discovery in Voronezh area. They have found a "golden application of baldachin" with an image of eagle in a Sarmatian grave. They say the discovery gives enough foundations to reconsider early history of Russia. The bird "Farn" is a simbol of Happiness, luck, power for ancient Iranians. By Igor Birukov, the director of Ins Archeology, Lipetsk, the Sarmatians went up Don river and entered deep into forest lands and subjected local Slavic tribes. Such images of eagle have found in Sarmatian graves in Central Asia, but never so far in Central Russia. He says the discovery prooves Sarmatians to be much more powerful than they thought.

I personly think the images of eagle in Russian and Polish heraldry related to those Sarmatian eagles.  



Edited by Anbalan
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