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Centrix Vigilis
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Topic: Who Were the Trojans? Posted: 03-Mar-2016 at 18:53 |
As I thought.
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"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"
S. T. Friedman
Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'
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Centrix Vigilis
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Posted: 02-Mar-2016 at 21:26 |
And your evidence to verify; if not substantiate this is....?
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"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"
S. T. Friedman
Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'
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gjergj kastrioti
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Posted: 02-Mar-2016 at 20:20 |
THE Trojans were pure dardanians ilirian race
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St. Francis of Assisi
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Posted: 17-Mar-2006 at 23:08 |
Trojans? I recall reading somewhere that they werer closely related to the Pelasgians. Nevertheless, they must have had contact with the Mycenaeans, and it would be a stretch to say they were "pure Pelasgians".
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Cheers, and Good Mental Health,
Herr Saltzman
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Maju
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Posted: 17-Mar-2006 at 23:00 |
Possibility is not reality. Reality is only one among many possibilities.
While it's clear that Greeks took over that region in the classical period, in the Mycenean period it is still not clear how much if any part of Anatolia reeks had colonized.
Notice also that Troy was standing there since c. 3500 BCE, while Greeks arrived much later. My guess is that while Troy and Mycenean Greeks were obviously interacting, the very destiny that Greek consolidation had fro Troy was its total destruction as narrated in the Illyad.
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NO GOD, NO MASTER!
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AlbinoAlien
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Posted: 14-Mar-2006 at 11:02 |
Well, if we all look at the map of the mediterrainien, we see that Troy is located on the Hellespont. this is extremly close to greek lands, we're talking very few miles in sea faring. perhaps there was a un-recorded greek migration over the Hellespont? seems possible to me....
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people are the emotions of other people
(im not albino..or pale!)
.....or an alien..
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Maju
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Posted: 14-Mar-2006 at 09:36 |
That idea of Trojans being a multicural society sounds cool but a little too far fetched, in my opinion, for the typical clanic organization we always find in pre-modern societies. In any case, they would have an "oficial language" whch would be used when joining the city assembly or council... a society needs some central elements like these, no matter how flexible or cosmopolitan they were.
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NO GOD, NO MASTER!
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edgewaters
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Posted: 13-Mar-2006 at 23:08 |
I think it's a shame we try to fit all these ancient groups into our neat little categories. It leads to alot of misconceptions, like people envisioning unitary polities that never existed. Alot of groups in the ancient world lay in fringe areas and were hybrid cultures unto themselves, comprising crossover areas from one culture to the next. The Trojans were likely one of these groups, bearing ties both to the Greeks and the Hittites. The Greeks may have considered them civilized and thus would write of them in a different manner than they would of peoples they considered barbaric, just as they wrote differently about the Egyptians than they did about the Persians. As far as naming Trojan deities as Greek deities, well, they did this all the time - they even tried to identify the Hebrew god as Zeus.
The Trojans may not have even been an identifiable, unitary culture of any kind. Homer says that they spoke many languages, and had no common language. Troy may just have been a site that grew due to its trade importance, and different mercantile interests - rather than a unitary cultural or tribal/clan influence - may have been the factor behind its growth. How can we rule out this possibility? I think sometimes in searching for the origins of a people in a particular site, we may be misleading ourselves by thinking there is going to be a single answer.
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Guests
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Posted: 04-Mar-2006 at 13:32 |
The same question was asked of Victor Hanson. He replied that the Trojans were a Hittite/Semetic peoples and seperate and distinct from Greeks. But that they shared cultural influences. His view is somewhat contreversial.
"From archaeological and philological evidence Trojans were probably some sort of early Semitic people and their language akin to Hittite."
Edited by Lurker
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Perseas
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Posted: 04-Mar-2006 at 04:20 |
It is already mentioned in one of the above posts.
Hektor is derived from (hektor) "holding fast", ultimately from "" (echo) meaning "to hold, to possess".
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A mathematician is a person who thinks that if there are supposed to be three people in a room, but five come out, then two more must enter the room in order for it to be empty.
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Maju
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Posted: 03-Mar-2006 at 23:06 |
Originally posted by Alkiviades
the Greeknes of the names is derived by their linguistic root and by their meaning. Examples:
Laomedon - From the Greek words "Laos" and "Medon". This cannot be an adoption or a transliteration, because it is a fundamentally Greek name
Hector - a greek root
Alexandros - another composite word: Alexo + andras. Both Greek roots, forming a Greek name with the meaning "defender of men".
Helenos -greek root (probably related to the word Helen (Greek) from the times the Greeks were not called Hellenes but Danaoi.
Deiphobos - greek composite name: By the prefix "Dei" (bi- twol-) and the word phobos (fear).
Polydoros - composite Greek: Poly and doro
Politis - greek root (Polis)
Laodice - greek composite name (Laos + Dike)
Kassandra - this one is disputed as the linguistic root is concerned, although it is adopted as a Greek name even from the Homeric times, especially in northern Greece.
Polyxena - composite name: Poly + Xene
...and so on.
So, names like the above could not (with the exeption of Kassandra) have been "adopted" by the Greeks, because they are fundamentally Greek. I still insist on a common Aegean culture (and maybe even ethnical background, at least partly) of the two people. |
That's interesting. Specially because the name Alexandros (refering to a Wilusan king) appears in Hittite records, so it could not be mere "Hellenization" of foreign characters. Btw, what does Hektor mean in Greek? I'm particularly iterested because my Italian family claimed ascendancy from that Trojan hero (of course one of those heraldic nonsenses... )
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NO GOD, NO MASTER!
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YusakuJon3
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Posted: 03-Mar-2006 at 21:57 |
There's one more thing that I think needs to be pointed out along the
lines of the ancient Greeks' custom of "Hellenizing" foreign names, and
that is the fact that they superimposed their gods and goddesses over
those worshipped by the outsiders they encountered. For instance,
the Phoenician god Baal was regarded in the time of the conquest by
Alexander the Great as being Heracles, while ancient text specifically
mention temples to Zeus and Demeter in Assyria which would've been for
Marduk and Ishtar. Indeed, they even considered the Temple at
Jerusalem to be dedicated to Zeus and even wanted to convert it to such
a purpose later on, much to the alarm of the Israelites.
Therefore, we have one possible reason for Homer referring to the
people of Troy as worshipping the same gods as the Greeks of Mycenae
and Argos...
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"There you go again!"
-- President Ronald W. Reagan (directed towards reporters at a White House press conference, mid-1980s)
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Guests
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Posted: 15-Feb-2006 at 23:29 |
who were the trojans?
This is an area of great interest for me, as well as the Hittites, Minoan Crete, Mycenae, the Sea peoples, and the Philistines
a couple of sites to peruse about the trojans that has some good reading,.
http://www.thetroyguide.com/id7.html
claims the Trojans spoke an Indo-European language which was widely spoken in different part of Anatolia, called Luvian.
http://www.lhhpaleo.religionstatistics.net/LHH%20anadolun. html
mentions that the Leleges and
the Cilicians were so closely related to the Trojans
and also "The Scamander River
had as son Teucer, his daughter, Batia married Dardanus [the Dardanians
were an Illyrian tribe], which came from
Samothrace and founded
Troy. The grandson of Dardanus was Tros, which had as son Ilus II (which
re-founded Troy and gave his own
name to the city).
Ilus' son was Laomedon, and Laomedon's son was Priam. The father and the
son of this king, Paris, will be defeated by
the Greeks after raping
Hellen (action that humiliated the Greeks and menaced since he would have
inherited Hellen's kingdom)."
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Isokrates
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Posted: 15-Feb-2006 at 11:36 |
Actually the first 'migration' is related to the myth of Jason and the Argonauts to Georgia, known to the ancients as Kolchis, depicted in Linear B' tablets as ko-ki-da. We know of several Mycenean finds, mainly swords, dated to 1500BC
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"When I was a child I spoke as a child I understood as a child I thought as a
child; but when I became a man I put away childish things."
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Augustus
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Posted: 14-Feb-2006 at 16:34 |
Something that dorian mentioned: Homer does praise Hector,but not because of his origin or due to the fact that he is "Anatolian".Homer was an epic poet,which means that he praises the virtuus,the "aristoi".Hector was no doubt the greatest troyan warrior,so the poet could not leave him out of the story.
As for the coming of the Troyans,they couldn't be Greek the way that Spatans,Athenians or the ionic cities of .. Ionia are. The first greek migration is dated in around 1100 B.C., with the coming of the Dorians. The prosperous city of Troy and the war as well happened before the greek tribes massively moved to minor Asia. Perhaps they were a pre-hellenic branch..
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Sed primum vivere...
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RomiosArktos
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Posted: 14-Feb-2006 at 16:05 |
Originally posted by Perseas
Cassandra was taken as slave from Agamemnon. I think you mean Andromache.
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You are right,Perseas
I took Andromache for Cassandra.
As far as the names are concerned,I agree that all the ancient greek
names that were given from father to son meant someting in the Greek language .This is how
you can tell if a name is a greek name or not.
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Perseas
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Posted: 14-Feb-2006 at 11:29 |
Originally posted by Maju
now from all these we can have the following final two options..
i) They had greek names,
ii) Their names were changed by bards from foreign to greek.
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Greeks adopted their names?
That seems likely in the case of Alexandros, which is a historical name of a ruler of Wilusa (Troy), according to Hittite records.
Notice that the Illiad was so important on Greek culture that surely many people took names from it.
Also, some names could come from a common Aegean background.
I don't think the answer is so simple. What makes a name "Greek" in your list, Perseas?
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From the point that they are mostly meaningful in greek language and their compositions.
For example Hektor is derived from (hektor) "holding fast", ultimately from (echo) meaning "to hold, to possess".
Same with (Kassandra), which possibly meant "shining upon man", derived from (kekasmai) "to shine" and '' (aner) "man" genitive (andros).
Its known Greeks had a tedency to regularize foreign names. If we take as example the Achaemenids royal names we have...
- The name Artaxerxes is the regularization of the original Persian name Artakhshathra.
- The name Xerxes is the regularization of the original Persian name Khshayarsha
But on the contrary to the above Trojan royal names, neither of these Persian names have any meaning in Greek language.
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A mathematician is a person who thinks that if there are supposed to be three people in a room, but five come out, then two more must enter the room in order for it to be empty.
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Perseas
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Posted: 14-Feb-2006 at 11:17 |
Originally posted by RomiosArktos
According to mythology,after the destruction of Troy,Helenos and Cassandra and some other Trojans were carried captives to Epirus by king Neoptolemos of the Molossi.There they founded a city,the new Ilion in Haonia(southern Albania).Interestingly, the Haones who were a greek epirot tribe were considered to be of pure pelasgian origin. I think Paris can be a greek name.There are many ancient greek names ending in -aris like Falaris for example. Can the name Priamos be a title rather than a name?Could it be linked with the roman word primus?
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Cassandra was taken as slave from Agamemnon. I think you mean Andromache.
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A mathematician is a person who thinks that if there are supposed to be three people in a room, but five come out, then two more must enter the room in order for it to be empty.
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Alkiviades
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Posted: 14-Feb-2006 at 10:55 |
the Greeknes of the names is derived by their linguistic root and by their meaning. Examples:
Laomedon - From the Greek words "Laos" and "Medon". This cannot be an adoption or a transliteration, because it is a fundamentally Greek name
Hector - a greek root
Alexandros - another composite word: Alexo + andras. Both Greek roots, forming a Greek name with the meaning "defender of men".
Helenos -greek root (probably related to the word Helen (Greek) from the times the Greeks were not called Hellenes but Danaoi.
Deiphobos - greek composite name: By the prefix "Dei" (bi- twol-) and the word phobos (fear).
Polydoros - composite Greek: Poly and doro
Politis - greek root (Polis)
Laodice - greek composite name (Laos + Dike)
Kassandra - this one is disputed as the linguistic root is concerned, although it is adopted as a Greek name even from the Homeric times, especially in northern Greece.
Polyxena - composite name: Poly + Xene
...and so on.
So, names like the above could not (with the exeption of Kassandra) have been "adopted" by the Greeks, because they are fundamentally Greek. I still insist on a common Aegean culture (and maybe even ethnical background, at least partly) of the two people.
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If you wanna play arrogant with me, you better have some very solid facts to back up that arrogance, or I'll tear you to pieces
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Maju
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Posted: 14-Feb-2006 at 10:03 |
now from all these we can have the following final two options..
i) They had greek names,
ii) Their names were changed by bards from foreign to greek.
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Greeks adopted their names?
That seems likely in the case of Alexandros, which is a historical
name of a ruler of Wilusa (Troy), according to Hittite records.
Notice that the Illiad was so important on Greek culture that surely many people took names from it.
Also, some names could come from a common Aegean background.
I don't think the answer is so simple. What makes a name "Greek" in your list, Perseas?
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NO GOD, NO MASTER!
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