Joined: 02-Oct-2005
Location: Korea, South
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1070
Posted: 08-Oct-2005 at 16:40
That's what I don't like about Koreans {I havn't met a North Korean so far}, S Koreans r so defensive.God knows who started this thread.I suppose the purpose was to prove common origins of Turks n Koreans.But the two people r compeletly opposite.
A Turk is never afraid to express himself.Thats why right now I'm listening to a Turkish song {Cat Cat-Davout Guloglu......even though I don't understand the lyrics}.....n not an American inspired SOUTH Korean song.
Ok, first off unless you are addressing multiple people please condense
everything into one post. Meaningless one liner's are a bit superfluous.
Originally posted by katulakatula
Try telling that to the pope.
The Pope is an individual who can decide for himself. Religion is
constantly changing and adapting and even the Church of Europe has
pagan practices like the Christmas Tree.
Originally posted by katulakatula
U live in the Vatican city don't u?
No, I live in the United States. I just happen to be Catholic and like the Vatican's flag.
Originally posted by katulakatula
That's what I don't like
about Koreans {I havn't met a North Korean so far}, S Koreans r so
defensive.God knows who started this thread.I suppose the purpose was
to prove common origins of Turks n Koreans.But the two people r
compeletly opposite.
A Turk is never afraid to express
himself.Thats why right now I'm listening to a Turkish song {Cat
Cat-Davout Guloglu......even though I don't understand the
lyrics}.....n not an American inspired SOUTH Korean song.
I'm sorry that you don't like Korean people. I happen to love India
and it's culture. I'm starting to get very interested in ancient
kingdoms such as Ashoka. I've also started to make forrays into Indian
food. So far my experience has been limited to Gujarati cuisine but I
hope to expand later.
I started this thread.
Was I trying to prove that Turks and Koreans are the same
peoples? No. I noticed similarites between the legends of
the two cultures and was commenting on them. If it turned out
that they were related, then great. It would have showed that the world
is small place. If it turned out that they weren't relatated,
then great. It would have showed that people think alike and that
we're all really just human after all.
Was that last bit about music supposed to be an insult because we don't
appreciate insults against fellow forumers, creeds, nationalities, or
ethnicites here at AE.
I'm assuming that you went to South Korea to find work and got a lot of
bull just because you were Indian. (Excuse this portion if I"m wrong) If that's the case I'm sorry
that's happened. South Korea is one of the more xenophobic
countries in the world but that's no reason to hate all Koreans.
Because Christian means "Christ Like," or "Little Christ," one would
have to look at Christ's life and beliefs to denote what a Christian
really is. I don't care if someone today practices shamanism but calls
themself a Christian..that doesn't make them a Christian; the same way
a doctor calling himself a professional football player doesn't MAKE a
doctor a professional football player.
So saying that Christians still practice Shamanism, in my mind, should
be rephrased. A national identity, or a self-title that goes against
the basic precepts of that title, do not make the man.
Joined: 02-Oct-2005
Location: Korea, South
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1070
Posted: 09-Oct-2005 at 08:20
Anyong Hasseyo Gubook Shi,
I didn't come to S Korea to find work.I came here to study.After the first sem I had some problems {like racial discrimination......not against me but fellow students from Cameroon} n the Administrative staff couldn't answer my questions to my satisfaction so I told them that I would pay the fee for the second semester only after I've put my problems before President of the University {since I had come to the conclusion (with my limited intelligence that money n not religion/god was the most important thing for the S Koreans).
Admisistrative staff didn't let me meet Prez (my letters to his office were returned-----c that's what I mean by being defensive) n I was thrown out of the University.
I think u started another forum hinting that ancient Koreans were GIANTS,I don't know the answer to that question but I can say certainly that modern S Koreans r very good at telling lies.
Linking this with religion (be it any religion). I guess the crux of any religion is to live a good life n treat other human beings with dignity (good thoughts,good words,good deeds).
I am an atheist n believe all human beings should have the freedom to practise the religion of their choice.I do not care if u practise a religion which is an amalgamation of all the world religions or even if u invent a religion of ur own but the test of that religion comes from ur behaviour towards other human beings (n not by whats written in the scriptures).
I fully with Nagaeyari when he says that "A national identity, or a self-title that goes against the basic precepts of that title, do not make the man."
I like music from all corners of the world n I'm very sorry to say that I havn't heard much music from S Korea which is worth listening again (take it as an insult if u will;I am just speaking my mind).
I didn't come to S Korea to find work.I came
here to study.After the first sem I had some problems {like racial
discrimination......not against me but fellow students from Cameroon} n
the Administrative staff couldn't answer my questions to my
satisfaction so I told them that I would pay the fee for the second
semester only after I've put my problems before President of the
University {since I had come to the conclusion (with my limited
intelligence that money n not religion/god was the most important thing
for the S Koreans).
Admisistrative staff didn't let me meet Prez
(my letters to his office were returned-----c that's what I mean by
being defensive) n I was thrown out of the University.
I think u started another forum hinting that
ancient Koreans were GIANTS,I don't know the answer to that question
but I can say certainly that modern S Koreans r very good at telling
lies.
Linking this with religion (be it any
religion). I guess the crux of any religion is to live a good life n
treat other human beings with dignity (good thoughts,good words,good
deeds).
I am an atheist n believe all human beings
should have the freedom to practise the religion of their choice.I do
not care if u practise a religion which is an amalgamation of all the
world religions or even if u invent a religion of ur own but the test
of that religion comes from ur behaviour towards other human beings (n
not by whats written in the scriptures).
I fully with Nagaeyari when he says that "A national identity, or a self-title that goes against the basic precepts of that title, do not make the man."
I like music from all
corners of the world n I'm very sorry to say that I havn't heard much
music from S Korea which is worth listening again (take it as an insult
if u will;I am just speaking my mind).
Anyonghi Khesseyo,
Dinesh Mohan Raturi.
I'm sorry that your friends faced racial discrimination. It's very
true that South Koreans can be very racist and I'm sorry to say that
I'm actually not surprised by the treatment your friends faced.
Hopefully with more education and succeeding generations racism in
South Korea will someday be non-existant.
I didn't start the thread hinting that Koreans were giants. That was
Mbote. I did reply in that thread though and if you read my reply you
can see that I stated that such ideas were mostly hyperbole.
I'm really sorry that you think Modern South Koreans are good liars
which would imply that they're all liars. I don't know how extensive
your experiences are with the "evil" South Koreans, but I can assure
you that the "nice" ones do exist and are out there.
I respect your views on religion.
DayI is right though. Let's get back on topic shall we? :]
7193 BC Han-In (Lord of Heaven), establishes a country 50,000-li north to south and 20,000-li east to west, called Han-guk. It comprises of twelve nations. This is believed to be a tribal league in the nationalist circles, the formation of the ethnic entity: Dongyi ( Koreans and peoples of East Asia: Jurchens (Manchus), Mongols, Khitans, Xiongnu (Huns), and so on. )
7193 BC - 3898 BC Han-guk is ruled by seven in succession by seven Han-In's (Han-In is probably a title of a ruler, rather than a personal name)
3898 BC establishment of Bak-dal Nara, the first Dongyi state. Its territories are as follows: (farthest extent in each direction)
North-Lake Baykal vicinity. Stanovoy mountains South-Yangzi river (includes present Jiangsu, Shanghai, and Anhui)East-Russian Maritime provinces West-Dunhuang
3898 BC-3804 BC Reign of first Han-ung (a title, not a name), Kuh-bal-han 3804 BC-3718 BC Reign of second Han-ung, Kuh-bul-li 3718 BC-3619 BC Reign of third Han-ung, U-ya-go 3619 BC-3512 BC Reign of fourth Han-ung, Mo-sa-ra
3528 BC The son of crown prince Tae-u-ui, Tae-ho, annexes territory held by Hua (ancestors of the Han Chinese) chieftain Zhuiren. He introduces animal husbandry and agriculture to the annexed area, also devising the Eight Trigrams. In Chinese history, Taeho is known as Fuxi, or Ox Tamer
3512 BC-3419 BC Reign of fifth Han-ung, Tae-u-ui 3419 BC-3321 BC Reign of sixth Han-ung, Da-ui-bal 3321 BC-3240 BC Reign of seventh Han-ung, Kuh-ryon 3240 BC-3167 BC Reign of eighth Han-ung, An-bu-ryon
3168 BC Han-ung An-bu-ryon orders General So-jeon (Shao dian) to lead troops to administer the former annexed territories. His son, Shin-nong, introduces medicine and advanced agriculture to the area. Shin-nong is known in Chinese history as Shen-nong, or Divine Farmer
3167 BC-3071 BC Reign of ninth Han-ung, Yang-un
3071 BC-2971 BC Reign of tenth Han-ung, Gal-go During his reign: descendents of Shin-nong earns right of self-rule within the annexed territories. First formal border established with Bakdal Nara
2971 BC-2879 BC Reign of eleventh Han-ung, Kh-ya-bal 2879 BC-2774 BC Reign of twelfth Han-ung, Ju-mu-shin 2774 BC-2707 BC Reign of thirteenth Han-ung, Sa-wa-ra
2707 BC-2598 BC Reign of fourteenth Han-ung, Ja-o-ji During his reign: Begins mass production of steel and bronze weapons such as swords, spears, armor, helmet, arrow tips, etc. When Yumang (Yuwang), descendent of Shin-nong, tries to reach the coast by military means, the Han-ung's army crushes them and occupies their capital, Gongsang (Kongsang, in present Shandong). Then the native chieftain Heon-won (Xuanyuan, the Yellow Emperor) issues challenge, whom the Han-ung defeats is 73 successive battles, and makes him a vassal. Heonwon is given the title Yellow Emperor (Huangdi) by the Han-ung, who is also known as Chi-u (Ciyou)
2598 BC-2509 BC Reign of fifteenth Han-ung, Chi-aek-teuk 2509 BC-2453 BC Reign of sixteenth Han-ung, Chuk-da-ri 2453 BC-2381 BC Reign of seventeenth Han-ung, Hyuk-da-sae
2381 BC-2333 BC reign of eighteenth Han-ung, Kuh-bul-dan. he is the father of the first Tangun, Im-gom
The name " Han-guk " is funny isnt it.. although I might be wrong but it sounds a lot like gok-khan, guk-han, kuk- han, but it doesnt end here... as "Han" supposedly means "sky", even in Korean today "Haneul" means sky... it could have easily meant 'ruler of the skies/heavens' So we have Kok/Gok/Tangri/Tengri Han/Khan meaning sky,heaven,ruler in Turkic with more or less the exact same meaning in Korean..
The Han-guk was comprised of twelve nations, i.e. the Dong Yi, (I've noted them in the begining of the post.) And the 18 Han-ungs rulling in succession to one another give birth to Dan Gun at about 2333 BC..
To the above I can add about 1.5 years research on the origins/ancestors to the peoples out of the baikal area, expecially at around 3000 - 2400 BC, (Andronovi -Afanasevi) many books published on this subject mostly some japanese (from 1893) and russian,(from 1865-1968)(some are S.V Kislesk 1950 Moscow, S.A.Teplovkhov, 1927 St. Petersburg, V.S. Sorokin 1948) and russian archeological finds from 1865-1880's (p.s. most of these people were later found guilty and sent to siberia or killed for writing on these subjects,charged with treason, there are hundreds of them) Anyway.. I wanted to note that some how the dates mentioned, belief and myths somehow connect..and quite feasable, which is pretty strange isnt it?
Turkish people could not have found ancient Korea even though there is no doubt that they also took part in that at some specific periods of time.
The title of "Khan" or "Khagan" or "Khaan" in Turkish all come from the ancient Korean "Kan, Khan Kaghan, Kakkan" (BC1 and several hundred or thousands years before the Turks) which were used later by Turks (after the title of Shaniyui BC1-4AD).
Only after this period the Turks began to use those titles and later the Mongols and manchus adopted. Thus, it cannot be that the Turks created Korean states.
"Han" of Hankook, "Han" of Han-ung (Heaven or King) has the same meaning, as used by so many kings cited above by some body!
"Chinghiz" I advize you to actually read what I wrote, and I have no idea on where you even got the turks founding korea, maybe from what I said on the Dongyi, I did say that all that part is korean nationalistic unproven mythology..but these are just notes on to possible roots of turkic peoples, and not themselves, anyway..
The origin of the turks, I can not say something certain but it can be 3 different periods,
1 - some say they are the Xion-Nu ( and mongolians are the Xien-bi) that could put them at about 1800 BC,
2 - some archeologists claim that their origin is a caucasian race living in the region at around 3000 BC who chose leaders from mongoloid people
3 - some say that turks are from a much later period of 400 AD or so.
(note : by turks I mean turkic peoples)
now 1,2 is what I have been trying to research, and so far I could tell you that there is a very high possibility for them to be true, 3 seems to have its flaws in strictness of the view.
With what I wrote, I meant the words Gok/Kok/Kuk/Guk - they mean sky, heavens in all turkic languages from all times.
So I was only trying to break down what "Han-Guk" could have meant if it were in a turkic tongue, as you can see it strangely enough is has the same meaning..
Gok-han - Kok-han - Guk-han - means ruler of skies/heavens...
Joined: 21-Jun-2005
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 105
Posted: 15-Oct-2005 at 12:11
The Dongyi were Chinese and have nothing to do with Koreans.
A developing culture was in Korea at this time. To think that the Dongyi suddenly abandoned eastern China, moved towards Korea, and settled there is simply ridiculous.
The Dongyi were Chinese and have nothing to do with Koreans.
A developing culture was in Korea at this time. To think that the
Dongyi suddenly abandoned eastern China, moved towards Korea, and
settled there is simply ridiculous.
The original Dongyi had nothing to do with the Koreans.
IIRC though as they were assimilated into Hua Xia culture, the term shifted to anyone living to the east of China no?
You don't find the name Turk before christ or any other date you might think; but this does not mean there didn't exist Turkic people before christ. And your case is not proved yet. We know Korean have got 'Kan' too. But one could think Koreans adopted the Turkic word 'kan'. This point of view is not proved either. We need research, and we need information. Let the time clarify everything.
Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.
We've both studied the common points in Korean and Altaic languages including Turkic. Linguists have been trying to find out new facts about the question: 'is there any relationship between Korean and Altaic languages?'. Some answer 'yes' and some 'no'.
By all these, I mean reaching a conclusion about 'kan' or something like that is too soon for the time being. Take care...
Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.
The Dongyi were Chinese and have nothing to do with Koreans.
A developing culture was in Korea at this time. To think that the Dongyi suddenly abandoned eastern China, moved towards Korea, and settled there is simply ridiculous.
The original Dongyi had nothing to do with the Koreans.
IIRC though as they were assimilated into Hua Xia culture, the term shifted to anyone living to the east of China no?
I think you may be a Korean, But you appear to lnow nothing about Dongyi as well.
"Chinghiz" I advize you to actually read what I wrote, and I have no idea on where you even got the turks founding korea
DEAR BARAKUDA: I did not read all that you wrote. Sorry for that. However, I am kicking in here after I read this thread which says that the Turks created Korea.
I do agree that Koreans and Turks have strong ethnic, historical and linguistic relationships, though some of the links are lost or not well studied these days.
[QUOTE=baracuda]"
, maybe from what I said on the Dongyi, I did say that all that part is korean nationalistic unproven mythology..but these are just notes on to possible roots of turkic peoples, and not themselves, anyway..
DEAR BARAKUDA:
It's not unproven mythology! Its the answe and proof given by archeology. So, do read a little bit of archeological articles.
[QUOTE=baracuda]"
The origin of the turks, I can not say something certain but it can be 3 different periods,
1 - some say they are the Xion-Nu ( and mongolians are the Xien-bi) that could put them at about 1800 BC,
DEAR BARAKUDA: Tell me who says so?
Mongols say that they are the descendants of the Huns. and they created Xia State in China.
[QUOTE=baracuda]"
2 - some archeologists claim that their origin is a caucasian race living in the region at around 3000 BC who chose leaders from mongoloid people
Probably, you are talking about western origin of the turks, entertained by Russian scholars and some Europeans, which is wecome by Turkish in Turkey, but these have nothing to do with Turks who are said here to have created ancient Korea, though they share similar languages.
[QUOTE=baracuda]"
3 - some say that turks are from a much later period of 400 AD or so.
(note : by turks I mean turkic peoples)
DEAR BARAKUDA:
The name of "Turk" first appear in Orkhon Script erected 6-7 AD. (Am I right?) and then most frequently appear in Chinese materials in the History of Tang State. Are you talking about these Turks? or Uighurs who show up earlier?
[QUOTE=baracuda]"
now 1,2 is what I have been trying to research, and so far I could tell you that there is a very high possibility for them to be true, 3 seems to have its flaws in strictness of the view.
With what I wrote, I meant the words Gok/Kok/Kuk/Guk - they mean sky, heavens in all turkic languages from all times.
So I was only trying to break down what "Han-Guk" could have meant if it were in a turkic tongue, as you can see it strangely enough is has the same meaning.. Gok-han - Kok-han - Guk-han - means ruler of skies/heavens...
DEAR BARAKUDA:
Though the pronunciations of these words may sound pretty similar, they come from totally different origin.
Gok-Han of course means what you say.
But the word "Han-kook" come from a totally different origin, especially the latter "Kook", meaning "State" in cino-Korean, having no relationship with Turkic language. "Han" means "Emperor" "King", "Ruler" in ancient Korean (time period: See above), which was later adopted by Turkic, Mongol and Manchus.
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