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philiptheuniter
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Topic: Who Were the Trojans? Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 20:06 |
I am interested to know about the Trojans. Who were they? Were they a Greek city-state in Asia Minor? Another group? What was their language? History? Are their descedents a group today? Someone here suggested they fled and are now Swedes. This sounds very far fetched (but who knows for sure? Highly doubtful though). Just curious really. A peice of history that everyone has heard of, but few know anything about.
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we are united by the same language, the same blood and the same visions
Alexander addressing dead Hellenes
http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/
http://www.thegreatalexander.com/alexander-forum/
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Yiannis
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Posted: 01-Feb-2006 at 03:29 |
Try the "search" button in this forum. You will find plenty of material to read, to which you can comment and ask spesific questions later.
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The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics
Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin
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philiptheuniter
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Posted: 01-Feb-2006 at 17:30 |
Thanks. I'll defiantely look at it.
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we are united by the same language, the same blood and the same visions
Alexander addressing dead Hellenes
http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/
http://www.thegreatalexander.com/alexander-forum/
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Matheos
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Posted: 11-Feb-2006 at 10:26 |
From the reading the Iliad I see the Trojans & Greeks worshipped the same Gods, spoke the same language and had common bloodlines. Notable examples would surface on the field of battle on occassion.
Sounds like Trojans were in fact Greeks. Having been defeated they fled to found Rome (Aeneas)
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Maju
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Posted: 11-Feb-2006 at 10:50 |
Originally posted by Matheos
From the reading the Iliad I see the Trojans &
Greeks worshipped the same Gods, spoke the same language and had common
bloodlines. Notable examples would surface on the field of battle
on occassion.
Sounds like Trojans were in fact Greeks. Having been defeated they fled to found Rome (Aeneas) |
Do you think?
The parallel of gods would be explained by synchretism, something that
is attested in all pre-Christian Greek history. The same language seems
rather a trick of the narration, but I don't see why would you be sure
about that. Bloodlines could be more revealing but you must illustrate
me about it?
Were Trojans related to Myceneans, Athenians or who?
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NO GOD, NO MASTER!
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RomiosArktos
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Posted: 11-Feb-2006 at 13:20 |
Trojans must have been a very close to the Greeks people.
Perhaps there is some pelasgian connection,maybe Trojans and Greeks assimilated the same Pelasgian substratum.
As far as the founding of Rome is concerned there are other theories
that say that the first inhabitants of the palatine hill in Rome were
Arcadian(Pelasgian) settlers.
I think the Trojans and the Greeks were ''step brothers'',same ''pelasgian'' substratum
This is a hypothesis or just science fiction
Edited by RomiosArktos
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Maju
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Posted: 11-Feb-2006 at 16:16 |
Pelasgian is a "catchall" term... very diffuse... but it's clear that
Troy belonged to the the Aegean area and so did Early Greeks. Yet it
seems that Greeks were then the newcomers and Trojans instead had been
there leading the "local" civilization since 3500 BCE.
The legend of Aeneas founding Rome doesn't sound realistic to me,
unless you place Aeneas as founder of the Etruscan civilization (and
not Rome) instead. There it fits very well: Lemnians speaking Etruscan,
Aegean ("Turk") genetics in Etruscan aristocracy, Aegean ("Minoan")
aesthetics of Etruscans...
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RomiosArktos
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Posted: 11-Feb-2006 at 16:51 |
Well,about the founding of Rome I tend to believe more what is written
by Dionisios of Alicarnassus in his work,Roman archeology.There he says
that the first people that founded a community in Rome were the
Arcadians led by Oinotros,son of king Lycaon and grandson of
Pelasgos.This happened about seven generations before the Trojan war.In
Arcadia there was a city called Pallation and this city was considered
metropolis of Rome by many emperors.
I tend also to believe that the Hellenes of the classical times were a
mix of those who had come from the north? and the autochtonous.So when
I say pelasgians I mean the autochtonous population, ancestors of the
classical time Greeks.
In Arcadia it was widespread the worship of a lycantropic
god(possibly ''pelasgian'') which later became the Lyceos
Zeus.(in greek lycos=wolf pronunciation li'kos)
This reminds me of the myth about the she-wolf etc.
The Arcadians were considered the most '''autochtonous'' among the Greeks.
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Maju
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Posted: 11-Feb-2006 at 17:36 |
The question is that classical Rome has a clear date of foundation (not
that of Romulus) but that of Tarchinus I, who drained the forum
allowing the city to exist as such.
Still they have recently found some material under the forum... but
this must belong to an earlier pre-Roman (pre-Latin) period.
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dorian
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Posted: 12-Feb-2006 at 07:05 |
If you read the Iliad, the sense that you may have is that the Trojan War was kinda "civil" war. It is very possible that there would have been a strong genetic connection between the Greeks and the Trojans if we don't want to call the latter, pure Greeks.
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"We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians.That's who we are!We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia�Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century" Kiro Gligorov FYROM
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Maju
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Posted: 12-Feb-2006 at 16:41 |
I don't have that sense of "civil war": it is the war of a national
coalition (Greeks) versus an alien powerful city and their numerous
allies (who aren't Greek).
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dorian
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Posted: 12-Feb-2006 at 19:53 |
Greeks didn't confront Trojans as a foreign enemy.
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"We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians.That's who we are!We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia�Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century" Kiro Gligorov FYROM
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kotumeyil
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Posted: 12-Feb-2006 at 20:01 |
Iliad was written much later than the Trojan war so I don't think it reflects the real ethnic composition of the Trojans.
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Alkiviades
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Posted: 13-Feb-2006 at 03:30 |
When the Iliad was written, the pre-classical definition of "barbarian" (varvaros) was not fully defined and formulated yet. There is more then just a passing sympathy of Homer for the Trojans, but nobody calls them "Greeks", although a strong (cultural) connection is not only implied, but vigorously outspoken.
Althouhg, one must note that the Iliad presents the clash between Greeks and Trojans as a sorts of clash between "Europe" and "Asia", so there is a rather firm notion of the Trojans being "Asian", non-Greeks.
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If you wanna play arrogant with me, you better have some very solid facts to back up that arrogance, or I'll tear you to pieces
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kotumeyil
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Posted: 13-Feb-2006 at 03:35 |
Homer was Anatolian so his sympathy for Trojans is understandable.
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dorian
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Posted: 13-Feb-2006 at 06:43 |
Homer was Anatolian Greek! Not Anatolian in general.
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"We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians.That's who we are!We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia�Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century" Kiro Gligorov FYROM
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Maju
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Posted: 13-Feb-2006 at 07:38 |
Originally posted by dorian
Greeks didn't confront Trojans as a foreign enemy. |
I think they did. Else, why so many diferent Greek cities and clans
join for that war? Because it is the "sacred" alliance of Greeks (led
by Argos-Mycenae) against a rival. A rival that precisely controls a
most strategic passage.
Yet Trojans are not alien to the Aegean world... Greeks wouldn't
percieve them as "foreigners" in the sense they could percieve Persians
later but in the sense they could percieve Romans, for instance:
someone with whom they have a strong cultural bond despite of being of
diferent ethnicity.
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Alkiviades
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Posted: 13-Feb-2006 at 08:02 |
Originally posted by Maju
Yet Trojans are not alien to the Aegean world... Greeks wouldn't
percieve them as "foreigners" in the sense they could percieve Persians
later but in the sense they could percieve Romans, for instance:
someone with whom they have a strong cultural bond despite of being of
diferent ethnicity.
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This is precisely what I had in mind! There is more than just a passing
afilliation, but the borders of "Danaos" (Greek) and "Trojan" are
rather well-defined, in terms of ethnicity, although culturally they
practically shared a common "Aegean" culture.
BTW Kotu, in all Greek literature (specifically the numerous
tragedies with a "Trojan" theme) the Trojans are kinda "the good guys"
and the Greeks the blasphemus, "bad guys". The Trojans are defending
their homes, while the Greeks perform sacriledge after sacriledge in
their effort to bring Troy down, and their conduct after they got Troy
is painted with the worst possible colors by every Greek author.
I think ancient Greeks - as Isocrates puts it - perceived culture
as superior to blood. I think it is a sign of civilization, in some
aspects. Also, Homer was undisputably Greek (not even half-Greek, as
Herodotus) from Anatolian lands of Greek Ionia. What do you mean by
"Anatolian"?
Edited by Alkiviades
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If you wanna play arrogant with me, you better have some very solid facts to back up that arrogance, or I'll tear you to pieces
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kotumeyil
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Posted: 13-Feb-2006 at 08:47 |
I'm not disputing his Greekness but he was born in Smyrna, and no doubt he visited Troia. He knew how Anatolian people lived, how the land influenced their life-style, etc. and had sympathy to them more than to those of the Greeks of mainland Greece. That's my humble opinion of course...
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Isokrates
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Posted: 13-Feb-2006 at 08:59 |
Based on mythology and Homer's text we do see an undoubtable connection, as mentioned, religion and of course the names that are poure Hellinic and not Hellinized which could indicate foreign (to them) origins. A simple read of any text clearly indicates the difference in which the 'kin' from the 'foreigners' are depicted. But Homer was a poet not a historian, so obviously his main interest wasn't depicting the historic issues of the battle, which is why his whole work is centered on Achilles choice of immortality.. The 'Hellen' part of the story, is a mere symbolization that we are still unable to understand. We know that prior to this expedition, Herakles had sacked Troy and killed everyone exept Priam who later became king.. so probably this war was all about the geographic position of the site, since we know of expeditions and connections of th 'Acheans' with regions as far as Georgia prior to the T.W.. If we look into the cultural elements presented, we find the interesting fact that the 'Troyans' preformed a sacrifice to Poseidon. Today based on the finds of Linear B' tablets, we know that 'po-se-da-o-ne : = exactly as seen in Homeric texts' was the greatest of all figures for the island populations of the Aegean, most probably due to their close relation with the sea.. What I also noticed is that the Hittites are mentioned.. But the Hittites according to all souces occupied areas in Central Anatolia, and there are finds that suggest an alliance rather than a kin relation.. Here is a map of Hittite influence(borders) from the Uni. of Texas.. I would like to know how we can speak of 'Turk' genes when Turkish scholars themselves agree that there is no Turish gene available in its pure form (obviously relating to Central Asia) nor was there any trace of Turks in the area prior to the 8th (probably) cent ??
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"When I was a child I spoke as a child I understood as a child I thought as a
child; but when I became a man I put away childish things."
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