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John Doe
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Topic: Kerry vs Bush Posted: 04-Nov-2004 at 15:47 |
let them be genghis... they dont understand the conservative mindset of
small hardworking families, they've never tried to understand...
Middle america rejected Kerry because long ago liberal america rejected them
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Kubrat
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Posted: 04-Nov-2004 at 15:51 |
That's totally out of line to compare elected American politicians to mass-murdering terrorists. |
Sorry if we don't hold George Bush and Dick Cheney on the same pedestal that you do.
And you know what? Bush does have a personal agenda. You'd be a fool to think otherwise.
Oh and by the way... mass-murdering terrorists? You remember
Shock-and-Awe? The whole point of that was to put fear into the
hearts of Iraqis. And the mass-murdering part?
100,000 Iraqi civilians dead, says study
Sarah Boseley, health editor Friday October 29, 2004 The Guardian
About
100,000 Iraqi civilians - half of them women and children - have died
in Iraq since the invasion, mostly as a result of airstrikes by
coalition forces, according to the first reliable study of the death
toll from Iraqi and US public health experts.
The
study, which was carried out in 33 randomly-chosen neighbourhoods of
Iraq representative of the entire population, shows that violence is
now the leading cause of death in Iraq. Before the invasion, most
people died of heart attacks, stroke and chronic illness. The risk of a
violent death is now 58 times higher than it was before the invasion.
Last
night the Lancet medical journal fast-tracked the survey to publication
on its website after rapid, but extensive peer review and editing
because, said Lancet editor Richard Horton, "of its importance to the
evolving security situation in Iraq". But the findings raised important
questions also for the governments of the United Sates and Britain who,
said Dr Horton in a commentary, "must have considered the likely
effects of their actions for civilians".
The
research was led by Les Roberts of the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School
of Public Health in Baltimore. Five of the six Iraqi interviewers who
went to the 988 households in the survey were doctors and all those
involved in the research on the ground, says the paper, risked their
lives to collect the data. Householders were asked about births and
deaths in the 14.6 months before the March 2003 invasion, and births
and deaths in the 17.8 months afterwards.
When
death certificates were not available, there were good reasons, say the
authors. "We think it is unlikely that deaths were falsely recorded.
Interviewers also believed that in the Iraqi culture it was unlikely
for respondents to fabricate deaths," they write.
They
found an increase in infant mortality from 29 to 57 deaths per 1,000
live births, which is consistent with the pattern in wars, where women
are unable or unwilling to get to hospital to deliver babies, they say.
The other increase was in violent death, which was reported in 15 of
the 33 clusters studied and which was mostly attributed to airstrikes.
"Despite
widespread Iraqi casualties, household interview data do not show
evidence of widespread wrongdoing on the part of individual soldiers on
the ground," write the researchers. Only three of the 61 deaths
involved coalition soldiers killing Iraqis with small arms fire. In one
case, a 56-year-old man might have been a combatant, they say, in the
second a 72-year-old man was shot at a checkpoint and in the third, an
armed guard was mistaken for a combatant and shot during a skirmish. In
the second two cases, American soldiers apologised to the families.
"The
remaining 58 killings (all attributed to US forces by interviewees)
were caused by helicopter gunships, rockets or other forms of aerial
weaponry," they write.
The
biggest death toll recorded by the researchers was in Falluja, which
registered two-thirds of the violent deaths they found. "In Falluja, 23
households of 52 visited were either temporarily or permanently
abandoned. Neighbours interviewed described widespread death in most of
the abandoned houses but could not give adequate details for inclusion
in the survey," they write.
The
researchers criticise the failure of the coalition authorities to
attempt to assess for themselves the scale of the civilian casualties.
"US
General Tommy Franks is widely quoted as saying 'we don't do body
counts'," they write, but occupying armies have responsibilities under
the Geneva convention."This survey shows that with modest funds, four
weeks and seven Iraqi team members willing to risk their lives, a
useful measure of civilan deaths could be obtained."
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Posted: 04-Nov-2004 at 16:50 |
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Bryan
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Posted: 04-Nov-2004 at 17:35 |
The Guardian? Isn't that the media outlet that told it's readers/listeners to call people in Ohio and tell them to vote Kerry and why Bush is evil (or some such)?
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Genghis
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Posted: 04-Nov-2004 at 17:38 |
Originally posted by Kubrat
100,000 Iraqi civilians dead |
That's the price of war, there's no victory if you can't pay the butcher's bill.
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Kubrat
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Posted: 04-Nov-2004 at 18:21 |
The death of one civilian is unacceptable. One! The
US went to "liberate" Iraq from a tyrant right? Did Hussein ever
kill 100,000 civilians over the course of a year and a half? Did
he ever throw Iraq's economy in shambles, and did he ever flame as much
anti-US resentment?
About the news source, you want another?
http://www.iraqbodycount.net/
Also:
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/041028/140/f5ivs.html
Friday October 29, 05:58 AM
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100,000 Civilians Dead In Iraq War - Report
Around 100,000 Iraqis have been killed in violence since the US-led
invasion last year, according to a new report.American public health
experts said the high death rate was partly due to US air strikes on
towns and cities. "Making conservative assumptions, we think that about
100,000 excess deaths have happened," said Les Roberts of the Bloomberg
School of Public Health, in a report published by The Lancet medical
journal.
"The use of air power in areas with lots of civilians appears to be killing a lot of women and children."
Mortality
was already high in Iraq before the war because of United Nations
sanctions blocking food and medical imports, but the researchers
described what they found as "shocking".
Previous estimates based on think tank and media sources put the Iraqi civilian death toll at up to 16,000.
The researchers blamed air strikes for many of the deaths.
"What we have evidence of is the use of air power in populated urban areas and the bad consequences of it," Roberts said.
Gilbert Burnham, who collaborated on the research, said U.S. military action in Iraq was "very bad for Iraqi civilians".
"We
were not expecting the level of deaths from violence that we found in
this study and we hope this will lead to some serious discussions of
how military and political aims can be achieved in a way that is not so
detrimental to civilians," he said.
Click here for more breaking stories from Sky News
Edited by Kubrat
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Posted: 04-Nov-2004 at 18:58 |
Originally posted by Genghis
That's the price of war, there's no victory if you can't pay the butcher's bill. |
but why is killing innocent people in a war justified while killing innocent people in a terrorist attack is not justified?
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Kubrat
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Posted: 04-Nov-2004 at 19:27 |
Because America is "justified" in its actions.
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Hell is empty and all the devils are here.
-William Shakespeare
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JanusRook
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Posted: 04-Nov-2004 at 19:35 |
All this for the sake of "security" - well screw security! other things (must) have priority over it!
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Yes other things do take precidence over security, namely morality. Bush won because he is a religious man, and John Kerry is a hypocritical douchebag. Not saying I support Bush though, my vote was for Dean.
but why is killing innocent people in a war justified while killing innocent people in a terrorist attack is not justified?
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I believe Genghis believes that terrorism is justified if his side uses it, it's only not acceptable when used against him. Double standards rule the world.
Oh and take no offense Genghis, I'm just going by your opinions on military strategy in other posts, psychological warfare, chemical weapons........
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Economic Communist, Political Progressive, Social Conservative.
Unless otherwise noted source is wiki.
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Genghis
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Posted: 04-Nov-2004 at 21:28 |
America is not targeting civilians, sure they die, but that's what happens.
And Janus, I wouldn't say that I embrace double standards, but I do believe that the end justifies the means, for the end endures and the means are fleeting.
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Tobodai
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Posted: 04-Nov-2004 at 21:50 |
Originally posted by Genghis
Originally posted by Tobodai
Consider the ironoies of this when you look at the terrorists we are fighting, and how similair we are to them. |
That's totally out of line to compare elected American politicians to mass-murdering terrorists.
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why? usually we rate deadliness based ont eh number dead, in numbers the US beats the terrorits, 74% of civilian casualties in Iraq are caused by coalition forces. Where I living there I would certainly side with the force that killed less of my close family.
Although me takin gon this argument if misleading, I dont really care about Iraq and what form of government the people ther have, Im only converned with battling religious extremists in both Muslim and Christian worlds, and not doing unnecessary thing that drive up al Queada recruitment.
The conservative mindset is so hilariously childish, actually I bet psychology studies would show conservatives reason like children, black and white, no gray areas, good and evil, you can always just kill all your enemies and you win. Granbted theres alot I like about conservative ideology, and I used to like their foreign policy, but when you are fighting a people whos recruitment goes up every time you do something rash you cant afford to hedge your bets like that, it amy seem decisive, but tis not strategically sound.
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I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value."
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Dawn
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Posted: 05-Nov-2004 at 00:13 |
Originally posted by Gubukjanggoon
Oh Canada! Here I come! |
You guys are making jokes about moving north but yesterday Imagration Canada had a record day of hits on thier web site from Americans. The usual is 20,000 but they had 115,000 yesterday sugesting that we may be looking at an immagration boom........ Think I'll go get the guest rooms ready.
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Temujin
King
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Posted: 05-Nov-2004 at 12:33 |
Originally posted by Genghis
And Janus, I wouldn't say that I embrace double standards, but I do believe that the end justifies the means, for the end endures and the means are fleeting.
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and that's exactly the justification terrorists apply for their own actions.
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Kubrat
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Posted: 05-Nov-2004 at 15:02 |
Originally posted by Genghis
America is not targeting civilians, sure they die, but that's what happens. |
I really hope that is true. And if it is, then Genghis is right on that count.
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Hell is empty and all the devils are here.
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Yiannis
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Posted: 06-Nov-2004 at 07:25 |
Let me see:
case 1: US troops drop a bomb on what you "suspect" it is a house that houses "terrorists". Civilians that live near by get killed (you know, women, children, elderly and other "collateral damage"). Good, bad or inevidable?
case 2: Nazis force civilians to march infrond of their troops as they advanse towards enemy positions. Using the same logic as you used to reply to the case 1 question try to answer this one. Fyi case 2 was considered a crime of war.
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The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics
Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin
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Kubrat
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Posted: 06-Nov-2004 at 10:12 |
But there is also a difference between targetting and not targetting
civilians. Although if you have high-yield bombs you should know
not to use them in civilian populated areas.... otherwise it's
just as bad I think.
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Cyrus Shahmiri
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Posted: 06-Nov-2004 at 10:58 |
Did Hussein ever kill 100,000 civilians over the course of a year and a half? |
A year and half?! just some minutes!
The chemical bombs that Saddam dropped on the Iraqi city of Halabcheh killed the whole people of this city!
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Bryan
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Posted: 06-Nov-2004 at 11:59 |
Originally posted by Kubrat
Did he ever throw Iraq's economy in shambles, and did he ever flame as much anti-US resentment? |
Well, you could say that he (Hussein) actually did throw it into shambles. But flame anit-US resentment? A good bit of Europe alone can do that without the help of Bush.
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Guests
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Posted: 06-Nov-2004 at 12:30 |
I think we can all agree that neither candidate was qualified to be a president, despite Bush's winning. We need a person who knows how to run a country not a monkey.
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Tobodai
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Posted: 06-Nov-2004 at 15:38 |
I totally concur, to put it as the ingenious episode of South Park did, it was the choice between a giant douche and a turd sandwhich.
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I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value."
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