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Why do we feel embarassed for others?

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  Quote ArmenianSurvival Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Why do we feel embarassed for others?
    Posted: 07-Mar-2006 at 02:49
     Why is it that when someone is in an embarassing/nervous situation, even if its a complete stranger, there are times when we cringe with embarrasment for them? Is it because we consciously or subconsciously imagine ourselves in their position? Or do we sometimes really wish that it didn't happen just for the other person's sake? Or is it something deeper? Share your opinions.

     I kept asking myself this question last semester at school. There was an Asian guy who hadn't been in the U.S. too long in one of my classes (political science), and his English was understandable and he was quite good at it...but he had a bad stuttering problem. When I say bad, I mean there were times when he couldnt even finish his question and the teacher just had to go with what he already said. I felt really bad for the guy in those situations, and I was really relieved when he would get his full question out (they were usually intelligent questions, too).

     When he would ask questions, I would pay attention to how the rest of the class was acting. Many people (especially those sitting close to him) would either be feeling noticably awkward, while others were trying to play it off like nothing was happening. Some would pretend to be preoccupied with something on their desk to take their minds off the nervousness in the room, and few would let out smiles, while few didn't seem bothered by it at all. The very fact that I felt relief each time he would get his full question across was reason enough for me to do some thinking on the matter.

     What do you guys think?
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  Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Mar-2006 at 03:05
Interesting topic. I think that human beings have a natural tendency to feel empathy, or to place themselves in others' position. This occurs because as human being we want to see others who are no threat to us receiving fair treatment and enjoying success where we consider they deserve to enjoy that. We like to imagine that others get due success when they put in the effort, and as such we will receive success if we do the same. When we see others undeservedly suffering or losing, it troubles us because this contradicts our sense of fairness or how we think outcomes should occur if we were in that person's position. The concept of fairness is deeply rooted in human consciousness, it was a major psychological development which occured as primates formed into collaborative groups with a degree of mutual need. Fairness is the primate logic which ensures things run well, for that process to be disrupted is psychologically troubling for us.

Of course we do not feel such a sympathy for rivals and "enemies" because our primitive instincts automatically prime us to consider such foes as deserving of misfortunate. Those whose position is hostile to our own, or which threatens or hampers of position in the social pecking order, will typically not receive such empathy because the human desire for fairness is overriden by our instinctive need for personal security and social superiority. If that Asian kid picked on you every day and stole your girlfriend you wouldn't have the slightest amount of pity for him.
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  Quote dirtnap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Mar-2006 at 03:14
That is a very thoughtful perpective you have there ArmenianSurvival.

I know in my experiences exactly what you mean. Why let people flounder unless its appropriate to learn. For them, I think its easy, more confidence and practice but only if they are learning. If the person is making no progress and is teachable but stuck, someone should help them.

For those embarassed by watching or hearing it, I think its probably the idea of discomfort in wanting to help but not being sure what the right thing to do is because of rules or situations. Nobody feels the discomfort more than the person living it to be sure.



Edited by dirtnap
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  Quote Halevi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Mar-2006 at 04:03
Originally posted by Constantine XI

Interesting topic. I think that human beings have a natural tendency to feel empathy, or to place themselves in others' position. This occurs because as human being we want to see others who are no threat to us receiving fair treatment and enjoying success where we consider they deserve to enjoy that. We like to imagine that others get due success when they put in the effort, and as such we will receive success if we do the same. When we see others undeservedly suffering or losing, it troubles us because this contradicts our sense of fairness or how we think outcomes should occur if we were in that person's position. The concept of fairness is deeply rooted in human consciousness, it was a major psychological development which occured as primates formed into collaborative groups with a degree of mutual need. Fairness is the primate logic which ensures things run well, for that process to be disrupted is psychologically troubling for us.

Of course we do not feel such a sympathy for rivals and "enemies" because our primitive instincts automatically prime us to consider such foes as deserving of misfortunate. Those whose position is hostile to our own, or which threatens or hampers of position in the social pecking order, will typically not receive such empathy because the human desire for fairness is overriden by our instinctive need for personal security and social superiority. If that Asian kid picked on you every day and stole your girlfriend you wouldn't have the slightest amount of pity for him.


Brilliant question and brilliant answer. To me, these sorts of questions are at the crux of understanding how the world works.

I compeltely agree with the idea that we have an innate penchant for fairness, for precisely the reasons described in the above quote.

The one difficulty i have here, is in correllating the empathy we feel for others re: their social problems such as stuttering, and the aforementioned 'fairness' drive.

I'm still not clear on how seeing someone stutter triggers our 'fairness' gauge. Perhaps theres another adaptive principle at work here, too?

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  Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Mar-2006 at 04:38
I suppose if we know the person has honestly made the effort to answer the question (studying, attending classes, behaving in the school environment), we still feel it unfair they be so disadvantaged by a factor for which they are neither to blame nor can they do very much about. We ourselves would feel terrible if such an accident of circumstance prevented us from achieving. On the other hand, if our young Asian student screwed around in class and went out drinking with his friends most nights he would not have our sympathy. This is because we consider such causes of failure to be an individual's responsibility to control, if we failed because of such vices (e.g. drinking and midbehaving) we would feel bad but would not feel we had been unfairly cheated of success. The concept of fairness involves the notion that we take reasonable steps to be in command of our environment, though how far a person goes to do so gets more individually subjective (hence why not everyone agrees 100% on what is fair and what isn't) .

Edited by Constantine XI
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  Quote Halevi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Mar-2006 at 04:48
Originally posted by Constantine XI

I suppose if we know the person has honestly made the effort to answer the question (studying, attending classes, behaving in the school environment), we still feel it unfair they be so disadvantaged by a factor for which they are neither to blame nor can they do very much about. We ourselves would feel terrible if such an accident of circumstance prevented us from achieving. On the other hand, if our young Asian student screwed around in class and went out drinking with his friends most nights he would not have our sympathy. This is because we consider such causes of failure to be an individual's responsibility to control, if we failed because of such vices (e.g. drinking and midbehaving) we would feel bad but would not feel we had been unfairly cheated of success. The concept of fairness involves the notion that we take reasonable steps to be in command of our environment, though how far a person goes to do so gets more individually subjective (hence why not everyone agrees 100% on what is fair and what isn't) .


Well said.

However, i have an inkling that even just listening to someone stutter, or speak nervously at length, for instance, makes us uncomfortable (regardless of whether we think the person was amply prepared or not).

Could it be the opposite of alpha-male-trait attraction?

Phrased differently, why do you think we are less likely to listen intently to someone who comes accross poorly/without confidence?

The fact that this is a (seemingly) universal phenomenon makes me think there's something evolutionary/adaptive going on here.

Ideas?



Edited by Halevi
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  Quote Quetzalcoatl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Mar-2006 at 04:55

 

Interesting question and an even more interesting response from Constantine. Good job fellas.

I'll also add that putting ourselves into the shoes of someone else, even for a brief moment, help us to learn by mimicry. So if this mechanism is innate to a human being, it would seem normal that we would empathise with someone that is placed in an awkward and stressful situation, for it allows us to experience an event without being directly involved.

Not all individuals will feel the need to associate with the entity that has been placed under stress, especially if the individuals in question are well acquainted with the scenario that is flashing in from of them -- leaving them quite indifferent.



Edited by Quetzalcoatl
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  Quote Halevi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Mar-2006 at 05:18
Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl

 

Interesting question and an even more interesting response from Constantine. Good job fellas.

I'll also add that putting ourselves into the shoes of someone else, even for a brief moment, help us to learn by mimicry. So if this mechanism is innate to a human being, it would seem normal that we would empathise with someone that is placed in an awkward and stressful situation, for it allows us to experience an event without being directly involved.

Not all individuals will feel the need to associate with the entity that has been placed under stress, especially if the individuals in question are well acquainted with the scenario.



Good point. So, if i understand correctly, youre postulating that our feeling of discomfort is a by-product of our adaptation to learn by mimicry?


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  Quote Quetzalcoatl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Mar-2006 at 05:38
Originally posted by Halevi

Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl

 

Interesting question and an even more interesting response from Constantine. Good job fellas.

I'll also add that putting ourselves into the shoes of someone else, even for a brief moment, help us to learn by mimicry. So if this mechanism is innate to a human being, it would seem normal that we would empathise with someone that is placed in an awkward and stressful situation, for it allows us to experience an event without being directly involved.

Not all individuals will feel the need to associate with the entity that has been placed under stress, especially if the individuals in question are well acquainted with the scenario.



Good point. So, if i understand correctly, youre postulating that our feeling of discomfort is a by-product of our adaptation to learn by mimicry?


 

Well I can only speculate. So, borrowing from the ideas of Constantine, I would say a complex form of mimicry has evolved to help our forebears, and hence us, to cope with the demands of a collaborative group. A strong emotional response to an event (someone else under stress) that indirectly concern an individual can be a more effective way to prepare that person (acting in a group or alone) to successfully tackle a similar situation in a near future.

That emotional response could be a feeling of discomfort or some other emotion. So the emotion is not a by-product, but the factor or the instinct that drives our ego.



Edited by Quetzalcoatl
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  Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Mar-2006 at 05:55
Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl

 

Well I can only speculate. So, borrowing from the ideas of Constantine, I would say a complex form of mimicry has evolved to help our forebears, and hence us, to cope with the demands of a collaborative group. A strong emotional response to an event (someone else under stress) that indirectly concern an individual can be a more effective way to prepare that person to successfully tackle a similar situation in a near future.



I am in agreement with that, the only thing better than learning from your mistakes is learning from those of others. Perhaps when we see the failures of non-rivals, an emotional connection helps cement in our minds that we should avoid falling into such a situation ourselves. I think emotional memories are FAR more powerful in changing our behaviour than purely cognitive memories and learning. If placed in a similar position to the victim in future, our emotional memory of the past event will strongly motivate us to avoid a similar failure for ourselves.
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  Quote Quetzalcoatl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Mar-2006 at 05:58
Originally posted by Constantine XI

Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl

 

Well I can only speculate. So, borrowing from the ideas of Constantine, I would say a complex form of mimicry has evolved to help our forebears, and hence us, to cope with the demands of a collaborative group. A strong emotional response to an event (someone else under stress) that indirectly concern an individual can be a more effective way to prepare that person to successfully tackle a similar situation in a near future.



I am in agreement with that, the only thing better than learning from your mistakes is learning from those of others. Perhaps when we see the failures of non-rivals, an emotional connection helps cement in our minds that we should avoid falling into such a situation ourselves. I think emotional memories are FAR more powerful in changing our behaviour than purely cognitive memories and learning. If placed in a similar position to the victim in future, our emotional memory of the past event will strongly motivate us to avoid a similar failure for ourselves.

Yep.

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  Quote Halevi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Mar-2006 at 06:33
Originally posted by Constantine XI

Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl

 

Well I can only speculate. So, borrowing from the ideas of Constantine, I would say a complex form of mimicry has evolved to help our forebears, and hence us, to cope with the demands of a collaborative group. A strong emotional response to an event (someone else under stress) that indirectly concern an individual can be a more effective way to prepare that person to successfully tackle a similar situation in a near future.



I am in agreement with that, the only thing better than learning from your mistakes is learning from those of others. Perhaps when we see the failures of non-rivals, an emotional connection helps cement in our minds that we should avoid falling into such a situation ourselves. I think emotional memories are FAR more powerful in changing our behaviour than purely cognitive memories and learning. If placed in a similar position to the victim in future, our emotional memory of the past event will strongly motivate us to avoid a similar failure for ourselves.


Pretty tight. I like.

Does it work? (I dunno about you, but i can still get perceptibly nervous speaking in front of crowds!)

Also ... can we create a scenario in the evolutionary past in which this was literally adaptive? (Ie helped someone survive to go on to have more kids)

...


Edited by Halevi
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  Quote Mila Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Mar-2006 at 09:12
Second-hand embarrassement, I hate it.

I think it happens mainly because, either consciously or subconsciously, we realize how we appeared in a similar situation and we to stop the other person because it's a horrible realisation.
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  Quote sedamoun Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Mar-2006 at 10:03

Why would you be embarassed for someone else, you either don't care (90% of the time for my sake) because there is nothing other people hate more than pitty (as do I) or you think they deserve it the rest of the time.

When sombody falls on his a** (not funny situation) on the streets full of people:

- idiots laugh

- afraid people go like "Oh no... how i feel bad for him/her..."

- "normal" people arround help out and go along their way (or don't really care).

Cheers.

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  Quote Lmprs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Mar-2006 at 10:20
Excellent topic. I think it is because we imagine ourselves in their position.
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  Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Mar-2006 at 10:33

One part genuine conscious concern, two parts subconscious arrogance/superiority complex.

OR...

Two parts genuine conscoius concern, one part subconscoius arrogance/superiority complex.

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  Quote Quetzalcoatl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Mar-2006 at 17:36
Originally posted by Halevi

Originally posted by Constantine XI

Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl

 

Well I can only speculate. So, borrowing from the ideas of Constantine, I would say a complex form of mimicry has evolved to help our forebears, and hence us, to cope with the demands of a collaborative group. A strong emotional response to an event (someone else under stress) that indirectly concern an individual can be a more effective way to prepare that person to successfully tackle a similar situation in a near future.



I am in agreement with that, the only thing better than learning from your mistakes is learning from those of others. Perhaps when we see the failures of non-rivals, an emotional connection helps cement in our minds that we should avoid falling into such a situation ourselves. I think emotional memories are FAR more powerful in changing our behaviour than purely cognitive memories and learning. If placed in a similar position to the victim in future, our emotional memory of the past event will strongly motivate us to avoid a similar failure for ourselves.


Pretty tight. I like.

Does it work? (I dunno about you, but i can still get perceptibly nervous speaking in front of crowds!)

Also ... can we create a scenario in the evolutionary past in which this was literally adaptive? (Ie helped someone survive to go on to have more kids)

...

A lion is attacking an isolated ape-like ancestor of man, instead of running away, the rest of the group pick stones and sticks and scare away the lion by making a lot of noise mostly. Without any emotional response, the group would have been apathetic to the fate of the isolated ape under attack. Now a young ape was observing the scene from the safety of a high tree and felt empathy for the ape that had gone astray. In a near future that ape would know how to response to a similar threat.



Edited by Quetzalcoatl
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  Quote flyingzone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Mar-2006 at 19:16

The newest focus of neuropsychological research on "empathy" is something called "mirror neuron", first discovered by Italian researchers Giacomo Rizzolatti, Leonardo Fogassi, and Vittorio Gallese at the University in Parma. Basically, a mirror neuron is a neuron that fires both when an animal is performing an action and when the animal is observing the same action performed by another animal (of the same species). In other words, the neuron "mirrors" the behavior of another animal, as though the observer were himself or herself performing the action. That explains why we ourselves feel "embarrased" by watching others performing embarrassing acts. The same explanation can be applied to why we scream, yell, and even cry while watching a ball game.

The significance of these "mirror neurons" and its implications for things from human language acquisition to the origin and treatment of autism (autistic people are allegedly people who have defective "mirror neurons", hence their inability to empathize and therefore to socialize with others) have been highlighted by world renowned neuroscientist V.S. Ramachandran (who has done research on and written about a lot of amazingly interesting bizarre neurological phenomena such as "phantom limbs", "blind sight", synesthesia, Capgras syndrome, etc.).  

Fascinating stuff.

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  Quote ArmenianSurvival Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2006 at 01:48
Originally posted by Constantine XI

When we see others undeservedly suffering or losing, it troubles us because this contradicts our sense of fairness or how we think outcomes should occur if we were in that person's position. The concept of fairness is deeply rooted in human consciousness, it was a major psychological development which occured as primates formed into collaborative groups with a degree of mutual need. Fairness is the primate logic which ensures things run well, for that process to be disrupted is psychologically troubling for us.


     I think this is one of the main points of the dilemma. Much like in economics, society also functions by way of the "invisible hand", i.e., some faith in the natural order of things that ensures that if we follow certain rules and meet certain criteria, we will get certain results, and that everything works itself out in the end.
     Perhaps I consciously or subconsciously felt that his difficulties were not deserved. But this means that I had to make the initial assumption that he was a benign person. This goes back to another thing Constantine said, where if this guy had treated me like crap and stole my girlfriend, I would never feel sorry for him. So I'm guessing I felt sorry for him because I made the initial assumption that he was generally a good person, and that his suffering (to whatever extent) was unwarranted. Why did I not assume that some other aspect of his life "made up" for the fact that he stutters? Would you say I didn't make this assumption because I have doubts about the fairness of the natural order of things?


Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl

I'll also add that putting ourselves into the shoes of someone else, even for a brief moment, help us to learn by mimicry.


Originally posted by Constantine XI

I think that human beings have a natural tendency to feel empathy, or to place themselves in others' position


     Some philosophers who advocate secular morality over religious morality believe that the basis of all our moral actions comes from what you two (and others) just described. It is this "council of others" that we imagine in our heads everytime we are faced with a moral dilemma. "What would he think if I did this?", "What would they say if I did that?", and so on. Basically, putting ourselves in someone else's shoes to judge our own actions. For non-theists, this council includes loved ones and whoever is considered a valuable social contact. Theists have this same "council of others", except their council includes God(s). This "coucil of others" was one of the best ways (in my opinion) to explain the existence of morally-good atheists against the notion that "without religion, there is no morality". So in much the same way that we predict what people will think of our actions, maybe we also naturally put ourselves in others' position. The feeling of empathy could arise from the fact that we imagine what others will think of us if we were in that person's position.

Edited by ArmenianSurvival
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  Quote Serge L Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2006 at 05:51

A very recent study provided ample evidences that altruistic behaviour is innate in human beings and, up to a certain extent, in other primates.

Some abstracts:

...

As recent findings by other researchers from the same institute show, these seem to be restricted to particular situations. Felix Warneken and Mike Tomasello found that children as young as 18 months willingly helped complete strangers. 'The results were astonishing because these children are so young - they still wear diapers and are barely able to use language,' says Warneken. 'But they already show helping behaviour.'

Warneken performed various tasks like hanging clothes on a line, and would drop a clothes peg out of his reach. For the first 10 seconds he reached for the peg. In the next 10 seconds he also looked at the child. After 20 seconds he said 'my peg!'. But he never directly asked the child for help, and did not thank or reward the child if the peg was retrieved. Virtually all children helped at least once in these situations and in 84% of cases they helped during the first 10 seconds, before Warneken even made eye contact.

'The children didn't fetch the peg automatically because in another part of the test I threw it on the ground deliberately and they didn't pick it up. They only gave it to me if they inferred that I needed the peg to complete my goal, in this case, hanging up the clothes.'

In case picking up clothes pegs was something the children had experienced before, Warneken invented new and more complicated situations. One was a box with a flap to retrieve objects inside the box. Warneken accidentally dropped a spoon inside and pretended he didn't know about the flap. Again, the children only helped Warneken retrieve the spoon if he was struggling to get it, as opposed to when Warneken threw the spoon inside deliberately.

...

But is helping unique to humans? A recent study by Jensen and colleagues [1] shows that chimpanzees only care about themselves when the goal is to retrieve food. However, chimpanzees might help in situations other than foraging. Therefore, Warneken conducted the same helping tasks also with human-raised chimpanzees. Although the chimpanzees didn't help in the more complex tasks, like the box experiment, they did help when their human caretaker was reaching for something.

...

Altruism in chimpanzees may mean our common ancestor already had rudimentary forms of helping behaviour before chimpanzees and humans split six million years ago.

'People thought helping behaviour was unique to humans, but maybe chimps aren't as different as we thought,' says Warneken with a smile. 'Perhaps there was a tiny bit of altruism in our evolutionary ancestor and it's grown so much stronger in modern humans.'

link to full article

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