Author |
Share Topic Topic Search Topic Options
|
snowybeagle
Baron
Joined: 02-Aug-2004
Location: Singapore
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 474
|
Quote Reply
Topic: Pirates of the Asia Pacific Posted: 13-Dec-2004 at 03:18 |
Pirates occupy a special place in Western literature on both sides of the Atlantic ocean.
From Pirates of the Caribbean to Pirates of Penanze, fictional and semi-fictional tales made their way into children's books and all way up to adult literature.
Despite their bloodthirsty doings (which were usually editted in children's books), the romance with pirates persisted even today. Children imitate them, adults use them in costume parties, Treasure Island remains a popular book, and famous characters such as LJS and Blackbeard made their way into other areas.
The facsination with pirates seemed much less in the Asia Pacific, though there is a long history of piracy in these waters even before the arrival of Westerners.
Can anyone name famous pirates of Asian origin?
It is interesting to note that Zheng Cheng Gong (Coxinga) is sometimes listed as a pirate when in Chinese history, he was considered as a patriot. Perhaps his background and antecedent has something to do with it.
Sometimes, it jars me to see amusement park in Asia aping "Western" pirates in their themes when the Asian history is so rich in materials to draw on.
|
|
Kulong
Knight
Joined: 30-Aug-2004
Location: Taiwan
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 55
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 13-Dec-2004 at 11:20 |
Originally posted by snowybeagle
Sometimes, it jars me to see amusement park in
Asia aping "Western" pirates in their themes when the Asian history is
so rich in materials to draw on. |
We have Western cultural imperialism to thank for this...
|
"Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something." - Plato
|
|
Gubook Janggoon
Sultan
Retired Global Moderator
Joined: 08-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2187
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 13-Dec-2004 at 19:42 |
Welll try romanticizing the Wo Kou...does it really work?
|
|
hansioux
Colonel
Joined: 16-Aug-2004
Location: Taiwan
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 537
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 13-Dec-2004 at 20:23 |
I think the Pirates of the west became so famous because of England.
England depended on over sea trading as opposed to China who rather depend on farming. Also that a former pirate became their national hero for saving their entire nation from the Spanish.
In Asia, no one cared enough about pirates.
|
Begging plea of the weak can only receive disrespect, violence and oppression as bestowments. Blood and sweat of the weak can only receive insult, blame and abuse as rewards.
Lai Ho, Formosan Poet
|
|
Gubook Janggoon
Sultan
Retired Global Moderator
Joined: 08-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2187
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 13-Dec-2004 at 20:26 |
Unless of course you were a pirate.
|
|
hansioux
Colonel
Joined: 16-Aug-2004
Location: Taiwan
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 537
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 13-Dec-2004 at 20:58 |
However, I differ from the fact that Asian people don't put Asian pirates into their culture. Pirates are used in novels and movies in Asia all the time. It's just not a popular culture. No one wants to dress like them, because they normally looks like starving marving.
|
Begging plea of the weak can only receive disrespect, violence and oppression as bestowments. Blood and sweat of the weak can only receive insult, blame and abuse as rewards.
Lai Ho, Formosan Poet
|
|
snowybeagle
Baron
Joined: 02-Aug-2004
Location: Singapore
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 474
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 14-Dec-2004 at 20:41 |
Originally posted by hansioux
Pirates are used in novels and movies in Asia all the time. It's just not a popular culture.
|
You might have a point there, at least as far as Chinese literature is concerned.
Traditionally, despite its maritime trade, Chinese had some aversion to the waters. Becoming a sailor was not considered a desirable profession.
Ah, I remembered at least one Chinese pirate, Zhang Bao Zai, from HK TV and movie.
Yes, I think the Wo Kou also left piracy as a very bad taste in the Chinese psyche.
There are few or no historical role models of pirates who left any positive image, not as freedom fighters opposing the governments, unlike Outlaws of the Marsh.
Coxinga was not usually considered as a pirate in Chinese history but as an admiral for the Ming dynasty.
|
|
cattus
Arch Duke
Retired AE Moderator
Joined: 02-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1803
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 14-Dec-2004 at 23:17 |
Big fan of the pirate age in the caribbean. I always try to pick up the next pirate game. Currently playing Syd Meiers.
A couple of my sailing mates and I are thinking of sailing across the Pacifico within the next couple of years but are worried about the pirates in the east indies. Heard bad stories about them.
Any good links on famous or current asian pirates,please post them?
|
|
hansioux
Colonel
Joined: 16-Aug-2004
Location: Taiwan
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 537
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 14-Dec-2004 at 23:20 |
Originally posted by snowybeagle
Originally posted by hansioux
Pirates are used in novels and movies in Asia all the time. It's just not a popular culture.
|
You might have a point there, at least as far as Chinese literature is concerned.
Traditionally, despite its maritime trade, Chinese had some aversion to the waters. Becoming a sailor was not considered a desirable profession.
Ah, I remembered at least one Chinese pirate, Zhang Bao Zai, from HK TV and movie.
Yes, I think the Wo Kou also left piracy as a very bad taste in the Chinese psyche.
There are few or no historical role models of pirates who left any positive image, not as freedom fighters opposing the governments, unlike Outlaws of the Marsh.
Coxinga was not usually considered as a pirate in Chinese history but as an admiral for the Ming dynasty.
|
There are many many many usage of pirates in Chinese literiture, tv historic soaps and even more in Chinese PC games. Though often historically incorrect, and almost always claim the Japanese for everything when most of the time Chinese are the leaders.
Zheng ChengGong might not be considered pirate from Ming's perspective. But it's not the perspective that's important, it's whether he did do deeds that of pirates. For example, in England, very few will say those were pirates that led the British fleet to defeat the Spanish. But they were pirates. They were pirates ordered to rob from the Spanish and then ordered to protect the island.
I think Zheng probably was a pirate in Qing's perspective.
Edited by hansioux
|
Begging plea of the weak can only receive disrespect, violence and oppression as bestowments. Blood and sweat of the weak can only receive insult, blame and abuse as rewards.
Lai Ho, Formosan Poet
|
|
snowybeagle
Baron
Joined: 02-Aug-2004
Location: Singapore
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 474
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 14-Dec-2004 at 23:50 |
Originally posted by hansioux
[QUOTE=snowybeagle][QUOTE=hansioux]
I think Zheng probably was a pirate in Qing's perspective.
|
I think not the Qing but the Dutch.
The Zheng was an officially appointed Ming commander when he was at war with the Qing.
|
|
hansioux
Colonel
Joined: 16-Aug-2004
Location: Taiwan
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 537
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 15-Dec-2004 at 04:10 |
The dutch definately will think of him as a pirate. He probably considered the dutch to be pirates.
|
Begging plea of the weak can only receive disrespect, violence and oppression as bestowments. Blood and sweat of the weak can only receive insult, blame and abuse as rewards.
Lai Ho, Formosan Poet
|
|
Guests
Guest
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 25-Dec-2004 at 00:47 |
Well the ancient Malays were known as Vikings of the East. Their teritory was the Malay Peninsula, Borneo, South Phillipines and parts of Indonesia. Singapore itself was a pirate hideout before the British came.
Piracy too was an income for the Malay kingdoms. Even when the British told them to stop pirating and establish trade as their main income, one Malay king said something like whatever they do, piracy is part of their lives. Piracy is in their blood.
Got this from a book on piracy in Asia.
Edited by AnakAjaib
|
|
babyblue
Chieftain
Joined: 06-Aug-2004
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1174
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 25-Dec-2004 at 08:25 |
the only chinese piracy i can think of at the moment comes in the form of CD and DVDs...
|
|
|
hansioux
Colonel
Joined: 16-Aug-2004
Location: Taiwan
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 537
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 25-Dec-2004 at 20:51 |
hehe, good one.
But if you read Zheng's voyager carefully, you'd see he fight Chinese led pirates in Malaysian waters.
|
Begging plea of the weak can only receive disrespect, violence and oppression as bestowments. Blood and sweat of the weak can only receive insult, blame and abuse as rewards.
Lai Ho, Formosan Poet
|
|
babyblue
Chieftain
Joined: 06-Aug-2004
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1174
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 25-Dec-2004 at 21:30 |
yeah those are supposedly chinese migrants who'd been there for generations...
|
|
|
hansioux
Colonel
Joined: 16-Aug-2004
Location: Taiwan
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 537
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 26-Dec-2004 at 06:54 |
Originally posted by babyblue
yeah those are supposedly chinese migrants who'd been there for generations... |
??? So? Why do they lead the pirates instead of people who "actually" lived their for even more generations? You are missing the point.
|
Begging plea of the weak can only receive disrespect, violence and oppression as bestowments. Blood and sweat of the weak can only receive insult, blame and abuse as rewards.
Lai Ho, Formosan Poet
|
|
babyblue
Chieftain
Joined: 06-Aug-2004
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1174
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 26-Dec-2004 at 09:38 |
Originally posted by hansioux
Originally posted by babyblue
yeah those are supposedly chinese migrants who'd been there for generations... |
??? So? Why do they lead the pirates instead of people who "actually" lived their for even more generations? You are missing the point.
|
i was just making a statement man...what do you mean i'm missing the point?
chill out
|
|
|
Guests
Guest
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 29-Dec-2004 at 00:42 |
Actually Chinese who settled in pre-colonial Malaysia don't considered
Chinese anymore. Their descendents are called the Peranakans, which
basically means 'those born here' in the old malay language.
Their culture and language are very different from Chinese as they had
adapted to the local customs and language and established their own
identity. So maybe they had been accepted by the locals, and some of
them can manage to lead the pirates.
Here's a link about the Malay pirates, specifically about raids they
did on American ships which led to American intervention on South-east
Asia.
http://www.sabrizain.org/malaya/potomac.htm
|
|
hansioux
Colonel
Joined: 16-Aug-2004
Location: Taiwan
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 537
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 29-Dec-2004 at 04:10 |
Originally posted by AnakAjaib
Actually Chinese who settled in pre-colonial Malaysia don't considered Chinese anymore. Their descendents are called the Peranakans, which basically means 'those born here' in the old malay language.
Their culture and language are very different from Chinese as they had adapted to the local customs and language and established their own identity. So maybe they had been accepted by the locals, and some of them can manage to lead the pirates.
Here's a link about the Malay pirates, specifically about raids they did on American ships which led to American intervention on South-east Asia.
http://www.sabrizain.org/malaya/potomac.htm
|
Interesting. However what we were talking about was before the Europeans reached Asia. In any case, it is interesting to read about the pirates of the east in any era.
In fact the Americans's first over sea military campaign was also an Islamic nation. But it's in north Africa.
|
Begging plea of the weak can only receive disrespect, violence and oppression as bestowments. Blood and sweat of the weak can only receive insult, blame and abuse as rewards.
Lai Ho, Formosan Poet
|
|
cattus
Arch Duke
Retired AE Moderator
Joined: 02-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1803
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 29-Dec-2004 at 04:34 |
Originally posted by babyblue
the only chinese piracy i can think of at the moment comes in the form of CD and DVDs... |
..forgot this thread.
|
|