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Mila
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Topic: Katarina Velika Posted: 23-Dec-2005 at 22:58 |
katarina VELIKA
L A S T Q U E E N O F B O S N I A
Katarina
Kosaca was born in 1424 in Blagaj, Bosnia and Herzegovina. The ancient
town, once the Roman city of Bona, was one of the wealthiest
settlements east of Vienna and its inhabitants were the most nobel
members of Bosnian aristocracy. Even today it remains famous as it
boasts one of the most recognized Sufi shrines in the world.
Little Katarina was no exception to this
well-to-do culture. Her father, Stjepan Vukic, had close ties with
royal households throughout Europe and her mother, Jelena Balsic, was famous
for her beauty and intelligence.
It was clear from the start that
Katarina's life would be legendary and no one in the sleepy town of
Blagaj (whose name means 'mild' in Bosnian) was at all surprised when
the Prince of Bosnia, Stejpan Tomas Kotromanic, announced his intention
of marrying her.
When her husband was killed during the Ottoman conquest of Bosnia and
Herzegovina in 1463, Katarina fled to Jajce where the legend of her
strength and defiance was born. The legend goes she managed to defend the capital of
Bosnia and Herzegovina for so long that, when it finally fell, much of
the Balkans was already on it's third generation of Ottoman occupation.
Although she was eventually exiled (most historians agree it was
self-imposed) and died in Rome, her battle cry: This is Bosnia, and I
am her Queen! can still be heard in plays, operas, and folk music in
Bosnia and Herzegovina today.
EDIT: She was beatified for her role by the Roman Catholic church and
although this means she should be called "The Blessed Katarina", she is
usually called "Saint Katarina".
She was the last Queen of Bosnia and Herzegovina, one of only four in
total. Her name, Katarina Velika, literally means "Catherine the Great"
and although she's not as famous as her Russian counterpart, as Marko
Vusovic said: "Put our little Katarina in that lesser Queen's place,
and we'd all be sending our zakat to Moscow".
Vusovic described Katarina Velika as the ideal woman:
"Beautiful but intelligent, delicate
but courageous, powerful but stubborn she was. Her physical and
personal traits and the balance between them were an ideal still viewed
with appreciation - and not a little lust and jealousy - by Bosnians of
both sexes today."
EDIT: For more information about her, a-Kotromani%C4%87">click here.
Edited by Mila
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vulkan02
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Posted: 26-Dec-2005 at 12:31 |
Nice info there I didn't know Bosnia had a warrior queen as well.
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ill_teknique
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Posted: 26-Dec-2005 at 21:52 |
yeah we did lol
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Mila
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Posted: 10-Jan-2006 at 18:08 |
Edited by Mila
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Kulin Ban
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Posted: 23-Mar-2007 at 12:14 |
Hi all. I'm very new in this forum so don't be too hard with me at the begining for my poor English. Katarina's was buried in Rome in the Aracoeli church in front of the main altar. In her tombstone is an inscription in bosancica :
translated to an original version of latin wich was modificated later to:
D.O.M.
Catherine Reginae Bosnensi
Stephani Ducis San (c) ti Sabbae Sorori,
Et genere Helene et Domo Principis
Stephani natae, Tomae Regis Bosnae
Uxori. Quantum vixit annorum LIIII
Et odbormivit Romae Anno Domini
Et odbormivit Romae Anno Domini MCCCCLXXVIII
DIE XXV Octobris
Monumentum ipsius scriptis positum.
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morticia
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Posted: 28-Mar-2007 at 14:33 |
Thank you, Kulin Ban, for your contribution and welcome to the women's forum at AE. Do you know why she was buried in Rome? I know she was exiled in Rome, but she should have been buried in her native land.
Edited by morticia - 28-Mar-2007 at 14:45
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Yugoslav
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Posted: 13-Apr-2007 at 18:47 |
I find her one of the most interesting characters.
A Croat descended from a Serbian dynasty.
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Posted: 13-Apr-2007 at 19:45 |
Originally posted by Yugoslav
I find her one of the most interesting characters.
A Croat descended from a Serbian dynasty.
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A BOSNIAN
NOT CROAT
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Reginmund
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Posted: 13-Apr-2007 at 19:52 |
What does that matter; she's hawt.
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Yugoslav
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Posted: 14-Apr-2007 at 12:50 |
Originally posted by es_bih
Originally posted by Yugoslav
I find her one of the most interesting characters.
A Croat descended from a Serbian dynasty.
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A BOSNIAN
NOT CROAT |
Hey, you're getting angry just because of a word I said again. When I was in Herzegovina and Dalmatia, I just heard the people celebrate her for being the most famous Herzeg-Bosnian Croat and cherished her as a Croatian national hero. They mostly point out that she converted from Serbian Orthodoxy to Catholicism and that she left Bosnia and all possessions to the Roman Catholic Church (although her will was not realized). I thought she was Croat; I could've been wrong. If I am, enlighten me; do not get angry at me.
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Yugoslav
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Posted: 15-Apr-2007 at 18:17 |
Originally posted by vulkan02
Nice info there I didn't know Bosnia had a warrior queen as well.
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Helen Gruba was much more important. She was a real queen, and she belonged to the ruling family; Catherine was just a wife of a King.
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Posted: 15-Apr-2007 at 22:43 |
Originally posted by Yugoslav
Originally posted by es_bih
Originally posted by Yugoslav
I find her one of the most interesting characters.
A Croat descended from a Serbian dynasty.
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A BOSNIAN
NOT CROAT |
Hey, you're getting angry just because of a word I said again.
When I was in Herzegovina and Dalmatia, I just heard the people celebrate her for being the most famous Herzeg-Bosnian Croat and cherished her as a Croatian national hero.
They mostly point out that she converted from Serbian Orthodoxy to Catholicism and that she left Bosnia and all possessions to the Roman Catholic Church (although her will was not realized).
I thought she was Croat; I could've been wrong. If I am, enlighten me; do not get angry at me.
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She is a national hero of Bosnia. Just because someone is Catholic that does not automatically make them Croat. I could convert, I would not be Croat, I could convert to Orthodx Christianity that would not make a Serb either. The notion of a rigid Serb and Croat identity had been shaped in the late 19th century not in the 15th century. Religion and nationality or ethnicity are not synonomous. The Hugenots were not Catholic, that does not mean they were not French....
She was a Queen of Bosnia, the Bosnian state, and its people existed before the Ottoman conquest. A Bosnian identity had been formed way before the Ottoman conquest.
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Aelfgifu
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Posted: 16-Apr-2007 at 03:55 |
Originally posted by Yugoslav
Originally posted by vulkan02
Nice info there I didn't know Bosnia had a warrior queen as well. |
Helen Gruba was much more important. She was a real queen, and she belonged to the ruling family; Catherine was just a wife of a King.
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Well, correct me if I'm wrong... But being the wife of a king kind of makes a queen no?
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Posted: 16-Apr-2007 at 14:41 |
Originally posted by Aelfgifu
Originally posted by Yugoslav
Originally posted by vulkan02
Nice info there I didn't know Bosnia had a warrior queen as well. |
Helen Gruba was much more important. She was a real queen, and she belonged to the ruling family; Catherine was just a wife of a King.
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Well, correct me if I'm wrong... But being the wife of a king kind of makes a queen no? |
No, there is a difference between queens consorts. Hellen Gruba was a ruler, a monarch, who did not have large influences over Kings and noblemen, but was one herself. There's a huge difference o'er there.
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Yugoslav
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Posted: 16-Apr-2007 at 21:12 |
Originally posted by es_bih
Originally posted by Yugoslav
Originally posted by es_bih
Originally posted by Yugoslav
I find her one of the most interesting characters.
A Croat descended from a Serbian dynasty.
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A BOSNIAN
NOT CROAT |
Hey, you're getting angry just because of a word I said again.
When I was in Herzegovina and Dalmatia, I just heard the people celebrate her for being the most famous Herzeg-Bosnian Croat and cherished her as a Croatian national hero.
They mostly point out that she converted from Serbian Orthodoxy to Catholicism and that she left Bosnia and all possessions to the Roman Catholic Church (although her will was not realized).
I thought she was Croat; I could've been wrong. If I am, enlighten me; do not get angry at me.
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She is a national hero of Bosnia. Just because someone is Catholic that does not automatically make them Croat. I could convert, I would not be Croat, I could convert to Orthodx Christianity that would not make a Serb either. The notion of a rigid Serb and Croat identity had been shaped in the late 19th century not in the 15th century. Religion and nationality or ethnicity are not synonomous. The Hugenots were not Catholic, that does not mean they were not French....
She was a Queen of Bosnia, the Bosnian state, and its people existed before the Ottoman conquest. A Bosnian identity had been formed way before the Ottoman conquest. |
Actually today, I think ya would. :) Emir Kusturica and Fahreta Jahic converted to Orthodoxy just because of it. I know, but this has nothing to do (what I said) with the country which's King she became. For example, Baness Elizabeth Nemanjic of Bosnia, wife of Stephen I Kotroman, was a Serb (though if I recall she wasn't even Orthodox, I think she was Catholic), because she comes from Serbia and is of the Nemanyiden. Such is it that I consider Catharine not Bosnian because she's not from Bosnia; but from the Hlm, and remember Herzegovina is another world when compared to Bosnia. I just remember that her family was a Serbian dynasty, traditionally Serbian Orthodox; but the Croatian friends I've been talking to say that her identity is not even close to Serbian, because she was permanently and deeply tied to the Roman Catholic Church, to which it allegedly gave Bosnia in heritage to succeed. Tvrtko's wife and Queen of Bosnia wasn't "Bosnian", but "Bulgarian"... do you get me? I don't think that Orthodox=Serb, but the best designation for the most of the time was Serbian Orthodox=Serb. Keep on mind that there were quite a lot of Orthodoxes in Bosnia (even the Kotromanics were originally Orthodox), but "Orthodox Serbian" was only a small minor population in eastern Bosnia, and perhaps (if we count the western-style Greek Catholic) in northern Bosnia throughout the Medieval Ages. Keep also in mind that "Serb" and "Croat" was much more political and national; thus a Serb became Croat in only 50 years etc.. such were frequent cases. Remember "such people" like Ferdo Sisic, who is originally from a Serb Orthodox clan, remember how Ivo Andric died, remember what Svetozar Borojevic von Bojna said, remember what Rizvanbegovic or Mesa Selimovic said... In this end this all proves that Serbs (and Montenegrins too, of course), Croats, Bosniaks and all other divisions all just came from one single people, which became solely divided upon religion (Catholicism, Orthodoxy and Islam). Balkanalia tragedy!
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Posted: 17-Apr-2007 at 12:23 |
I'm not disputing their similar origins, I am dipsuting that all of them came from Serbs, or all of them Came from Bosnians or all of them came from Croats, all the three mentinoed came from similar ancestors who were neither Croat Serb or Bosnian.
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Posted: 17-Apr-2007 at 13:32 |
Originally posted by es_bih
I'm not disputing their similar origins, I am dipsuting that all of them came from Serbs, or all of them Came from Bosnians or all of them came from Croats, all the three mentinoed came from similar ancestors who were neither Croat Serb or Bosnian. |
Sorry, what are you talking about?
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Posted: 17-Apr-2007 at 15:39 |
Originally posted by Yugoslav
Originally posted by es_bih
I'm not disputing their similar origins, I am dipsuting that all of them came from Serbs, or all of them Came from Bosnians or all of them came from Croats, all the three mentinoed came from similar ancestors who were neither Croat Serb or Bosnian. |
Sorry, what are you talking about?
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The common misconception that a lot of nationalists purpogate, for example, everything in ex-Yu is Serbian. The theory that the Croats, Bosnians, all were originally Serbian. Etc.
The fact is that the original peoples of the various republics are related, but were neither Serb, Croat, Bosnian, but in fact Serbs, Bosnians, Croats evolved out of those people, therefore, none of the three people have a root in one another, but have a common root that is neither Serbian, Bosnian, or Croat. The common root is the amalgalm of various peoples living in the Balkans around the 8th century; ie. the Romanized Illyrians, the various Slavic groups moving in, etc....
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Yugoslav
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Posted: 17-Apr-2007 at 18:06 |
Oh.... I thought you were saying something about Catherine.
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violentjack
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Posted: 18-Apr-2007 at 16:17 |
Katarina wasnt a queen, nor was she effective ruled.She was just a wife, of unpopular king Stjepan Tomas.
Prior to Stjepan Tomas rise to power, all Bosnian rulers were either
Boghumils and Bosniaks, certainly grave of Stjepan Ostoja , Matej
Ninoslav, who Mandic tried to portray as a Catholic, with lot of flaws,
and especially Kulin Ban, who had to accept Papal sovereignity in
public.The famous Bilinoe declaration of 1203, where he had to accept
Roman missionary movements, that would come in due time, by laws of
Innocent III
In 1244, when whole Europe was Catholic and Christian, first Papal
order(Dominicans came to Bosnia.Since, at that time, ruler was Matej
Ninoslav, who was catholic, then returned to boghumils, then became
orthodox, he suited his game plan, as he came into power and stayed in
power.Regardless if he was playing Byzantines, Hungarians or even Rome
By 1293, some say 1299, Jiricek suggest 1294, when Subic Brothers took
throne of Bosnia or Rex Bosnae, catholic Subics or Subics of
Bribinje, piece of land that Popes gave them in 1220 period, when they
later became another family in middle ages Zrinjski, but thats just off
topic
From 1290 untill 1398 with Exception of King Ostoja, who was a lose
catholic, or boghumil 1398-1404, 1404-1412, all rulers were
CATHOLIC.Though all expecpted the fact, that boghumils was strong in
Bosnia and didnt persecute Bosnia
In period 1440-1463 last 23 years of Bosnia as a state
You had Turkish taking of Pavlovici Kraji(Lands of Ivanis Pavloc,
vicelord of Podrinje and Vrhbosna Sarajevo.By 1455, Turks, already
controlled Sarajevo, Foca, and lot of eastern towns.In the middle, you
had a nobles, that were rebelling against rule of Stjepan Tomas, and
his predecesors.
Stjepan Vukcic Kosaca in 1446 took his land Humska and proclaimed it
autonomous from Bosnia by name Hercegovina(Land of Duke)Hercog -Dukes
Stjepan Tomas was incometent ruler.Last few years, he spend his money,
trying to bad-mouth nobles that cemented Bosnian faith, as they didnt
recognize Bosniak king(Radosalici, Kopcici, Kacici, Kosace, Sankovici
Even Altomanovici from Soli rebeled.Though Bosnia was a state,, this
was loose confederation of powerfull nobles of the day.Some converted
to Islam later, but thats another story.
Katarina and Stjepan tried to convert forcefully Local Bosniaks.Their
death was not done as some claim by Mehmed Fatih conquered, by Radoslav
Angelili Pribinic, who was a son of a Krusevac vicelord Ratomir.Stjepan
ran away to Kljuc and hid in womans clothers.Its shame and ironny, what
was once proud Bosnian kingdom:Stjepan Kotromanic, Tvrtko, Kulin Ban,
even drunk Ostoja 1398-1404, 1404-1412, who by the way sold all of
Bosnian coast, becase he owed money to Dubrovacka republika
I certainly respect Katarina even less, because as she said.If my children convert to Islam, i will leave all my money to Rome.
Im more into good Tvrtko, or Kulin
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Bosnjaci,probudite se ili nestanite
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