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calvo
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Topic: Maya cities after the European invasion Posted: 20-Jul-2008 at 14:53 |
Although the glory of Maya civilization was long gone by the time the Spaniards landed in America, by the 16th and 17 centuries there were still a number of Maya city states surviving in southern Mexico, such as Chichen Itzá.
It wasn't until the 1600s that the Spaniards gained effective control over the Maya region and demographically few Europeans entered into these lands.
So what happened to these Maya cities then? Nothing much remains of them except ruins.
When were they abandoned and why?
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Posted: 21-Jul-2008 at 11:08 |
I think most cities that were still present when the Spanish arrived were replaced by Spanish towns, in some cases the Maya buildings were even used as quarry for Spanish buildings. Mérida, Campeche, Flores and Quetzaltenango are examples of cities that were built on the site of Maya cities.
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calvo
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Posted: 21-Jul-2008 at 21:54 |
Historically, there weren't any famous battles or dates in which the Spanish conquered any particular "Maya city" that was still inhabitted; not like the well-known conquest of Tenochitlan, the Inca Empire, or even the Amazon River.
If new Spanish cities had been built on top of Maya cities, then the "base" of these cities should still be Maya (like Cuzco in Peru who has an Inca foundation). However, I never heard of any cities in southern Mexico where one can see a "Maya" foundation.
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Jams
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Posted: 04-Sep-2008 at 15:38 |
No? Actually there is one, namely the town of Izamal, it is exactly build on top of Mayan ruins, using material from the Mayan buildings. It was never a lost city, although it was semi abandoned, afaik. It was still used as a holy place when the Spanish arrived, but it was not a city as such I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) there are still ruins of old temples in the middle of the town.
And Acanceh, a smaller town:
Church and pyramid!
Interesting history about this one, Maní:
Edited by Jams - 04-Sep-2008 at 16:19
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calvo
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Posted: 04-Sep-2008 at 18:54 |
very interesting indeed! I really have to have a good tour around southern Mexico some day.
How come the modern Maya tribes no longer live in their ancestral cities, but instead are spread throughout the mountain areas in small rural villages?
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Jams
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Posted: 04-Sep-2008 at 19:15 |
I better mention this one, that may also answer your question somewhat:
It is not completely understood why they abandoned most of their large cities, but it has been suggested that it may have been because of environmental reasons, drought and de-forestation or a combination of those reasons, perhaps together with wars between cities, or perhaps even rebellion against the rulers.
I don't know how accurate this is, but it will give a reasonable overview of the Spanish conquest:
Here's another take (a very long read) claiming that the Maya were more or less intellectually superior and more modern and enlightened:
And that they abandoned their mega structures because they had "moved on" to a new less absolute religious phase.
Edited by Jams - 04-Sep-2008 at 20:49
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tommy
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Posted: 12-Sep-2008 at 14:16 |
Many so called Maya "cities" were only small towns or big villages.As i remember, Cortes had fought Maya warriors, he had attacked an Maya"city"(might be only a big town},for three time, and had faced heavy lost, he had travelled through some maya abonded citites, but because of hard war, he never concentrated on this ruin, this reflected that Spanish fought with maya, but on some big village or small town, those really big cities had not been abonded.
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tommy
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Posted: 12-Sep-2008 at 14:18 |
Sorry, "those really big cities had been abonded," please delete the word"not", handwriting mistake
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Jams
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Posted: 12-Sep-2008 at 23:45 |
Yes, most of the big cities had been abandoned, no one question that, I believe. The cities that existed at the time the Spaniards came were not as big as the old abandoned ones, but there were a couple smaller ones, like the ones I mentioned above. The troublesome city that were attacked multiple times were Tayasal, by the way.
The reason that it is not immediately observable that the Spanish towns were built on top of Maya cities is because of the material the Maya used in the construction. Unlike the Incas, who used huge blocks of rock, the Maya used smaller limestones, that were useable to the Spanish in the construction of the new towns and churches.
Edited by Jams - 12-Sep-2008 at 23:51
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ehecatzin
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Posted: 17-Sep-2008 at 19:21 |
While the cities the Spanish encountered werent even close to those of the classical and post classical period, they still kept a a big deal of their architecture legacy. We can know this because while the Spaniards destroyed every building to create their own, the working force was still native, and churches, haciendas and missions built in the period had very distinctive Mayan features. You can see the obvious similarities, there's also the extensive use of Mayan blue in religous murals. So, if we have no idea how big where the mayan cities, or how they looked like at the time of the conquest, we can safetly assume that part of the classical culture was preserved in those cities, that even architecture style carried off to the colonial period. Mayans didnt "dissapear", they went through a socio-political restructuring, and their culture was still alive and kicking when the Spanish arrived.
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Jams
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Posted: 17-Sep-2008 at 21:10 |
Interesting perspective. So you think that the Maya designs can be seen in the "Spanish" buildings? I haven't thought about that, and I haven't read anything about it, I'm afraid!
Edited by Jams - 17-Sep-2008 at 21:11
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Posted: 17-Sep-2008 at 22:38 |
Originally posted by Jams
Interesting perspective. So you think that the Maya designs can be seen in the "Spanish" buildings? I haven't thought about that, and I haven't read anything about it, I'm afraid! |
Yes! That's something you can see in the colonial arts of all over Hispanic America, and something well know by us, hispanics.
The arts of colonial hispanic america are a fusión of cultures. That's clearly seen in the Latin American Barroque, where architecture, painting and even music had lot of native american influences.
This happens for obvious reasons. Priests were mostly educated europeans, but also there were some natives in between them. The workers and artists, on the other hand, were mainly natives. So, both cultures influenced mutually and created right in the middle of the work. You can see native influences in the churches all over Latin America, were theirs legacy is impressed in the stones, in the figures of saints and even in the sacred music.
We use the word "criollo" to mean this syncretic culture that resulted from the encounted of the two worlds. And that covers lots of things, from the custom of drinking mate and hunting with balls in Argentina, to the amazing taste for mixing colors in Mexico.
(This syncretism, also exists in north america in lesser degree, as in the traditions of riding canoes in certain places of Canada and the U.S.)
Edited by pinguin - 17-Sep-2008 at 22:44
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Jams
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Posted: 20-Sep-2008 at 18:09 |
I guess this must be an example:
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Posted: 21-Sep-2008 at 05:34 |
That's a pretty building.
Where is it?
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Jams
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Posted: 21-Sep-2008 at 20:37 |
Edit: It is in a town called Xocen in Yucatan, Mexico!
Here's one from Guatemala, with Maya colours and motifs, although not as obviously Maya as the one above:
Edited by Jams - 21-Sep-2008 at 21:21
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Posted: 22-Sep-2008 at 04:24 |
beautiful.
This is another example. Bolivian artists of indigenous background, playing colonial barroque music of that country:
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Posted: 04-Oct-2008 at 10:58 |
Pinguin, I'm not sure what you mean? Those two women look Native American, and they play violin?
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Posted: 04-Oct-2008 at 14:34 |
Originally posted by Jams
Pinguin, I'm not sure what you mean? Those two women look Native American, and they play violin? |
I mean syncretism. They are the descendents of the natives trainned in classical music by the Jesuit priests of the missions.
The interaction between native and european culture produced a wonderful art all over Latin America. For instance, in the same way Churches in Latin America has architectural and artistics motifs comming from native cultures, the barroque Latin American music is a mixture of european style and techniques and native handcrafts and languages.
Syncretism, that's what I meant
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Jams
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Posted: 11-Oct-2008 at 12:22 |
Ok, so you're talking more about cultural syncretism? Is there any music that has mixed European and Native origin?
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Posted: 11-Oct-2008 at 18:42 |
Yes, there are many. Perhaps the better known is the Andes Music, that is fusion between Native Inca and European. Remember the tune of "Condor Pasa" of Simon and Garfunkel? Well, that's the idea.
There is also syncretic classical music in the style known as Latin America Barroque, developed by the Jesuits in theirs missions. There are many examples of that style of music, particularly from Bolivia. They are usually canon music song in Native languages. You can hear some example here, from a Jesuit Mision in Chiloe Chile, from the 17th and 18th centuries. The songs are in Mapudungun (native language)
Here is the site in Spanish,
And here the tunes to download,
To download, put the cursor on top the loudspeaker sign, press the right button of the mouse and press "save as". And there you go, authentic Barroque music, Bach's style, song in native language.
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