Correction number one -- Moesians are Thracian tribe. Read Strabo first
"Now the Greeks used to suppose that the Getae were Thracians; and the Getae lived on either side the Ister, as did also the Mysi, these also being Thracians and identical with the people who are now called Moesi; from these Mysi sprang also the Mysi who now live between the Lydians and the p177Phrygians and Trojans."
Which are the connections between Bulgarians and Thracians?
I mean linguistically,culturally,historically and even genetically.
I think that the central Balkan tribes(Dardanoi,Paionians) were a mix between Thracians and Illyrians,thats why we are a little bit confused with them.
Do you have any maps with the ancient balkan cities and areas?
PS: Menumorut do you have any other like the one you send in the "Greek colonies" thread?
My suggestion is t odiscuss for the ancient tribes of Balcans, their history,military warefare,culture , without trying to present them as the "glorious distant past" of every modern national (or better nationalistic?) state of the region.
My suggestion is t odiscuss for the ancient tribes of Balcans, their history,military warefare,culture , without trying to present them as the "glorious distant past" of every modern national (or better nationalistic?) state of the region.
I will start with the posting of some links about Thracians. Here is Kroraina's site:
Dareios then set out
from thence and came to another river whose name is Artescos, which
flows through the land of the Odrysians. Having come to this river he
did as follows: -- he appointed a place for his army and bade every man
as he passed out by it place one stone in this appointed place: and
when the army had performed this, then he marched away his army leaving
behind great mounds of these stones. 93. But before
he came to the Ister he conquered first the Getai, who believe in
immortality: for the Thracians who occupy Salmydessos and are settled
above the cities of Apollonian and Mesambria, called the Kyrmianai
and the Nipsaioi, delivered themselves over to Dareios without
fighting; but the Getai, who are the bravest and the most upright in
their dealings of all the Thracians, having betaken themselves to
obstinacy were forthwith subdued. 94.
And their
belief in immortality is of this kind, that is to say, they hold that
they do not die, but that he who is killed goes to Salmoxis, a
divinity, whom some of them call Gebeleizis; and at intervals of four
years
they send one of themselves, whomsoever the lot may select, as a
messenger to Salmoxis, charging him with such requests as they have to
make on each occasion; and they send him thus: -- certain of them who
are appointed for this have three javelins, and others meanwhile take
hold on both sides of him who is being sent to Salmoxis, both by his
hands and his feet, and first they swing him up, then throw him into
the air so as to fall upon the spear-points: and if when he is pierced
through he is killed, they think that the god is favourable to them;
but if he is not killed, they find fault with the messenger himself,
calling him a worthless man, and then having found fault with him they
send another: and they give him the charge beforehand, while he is yet
alive. These same Thracians also shoot arrows up towards the sky when
thunder and lightning come, and use threats to the god, not believing
that there exists any other god except their own. 95.
This Salmoxis I hear from the Hellenes who dwell about the Hellespont
and the Pontus, was a man, and he became a slave in Samos, and was in
fact a slave of Pythagoras the son of Mnesarchos. Then having become
free he gained great wealth, and afterwards returned to his own land:
and as the Thracians both live hardly and are rather simple-minded,
this Salmoxis, being acquainted with the Ionian way of living and with
manners more cultivated
than the Thracians were used to see, since he had associated with
Hellenes (and not only that but with Pythagoras, not the least able
philosopher of the Hellenes), prepared a banqueting-hall,
where he received and feasted the chief men of the tribe and instructed
them meanwhile that neither he himself nor his guests nor their
descendants in succession after them would die; but that they would
come to a place where they would live for ever and have all things
good. While he was doing that which has been mentioned and was saying
these things, he was making for himself meanwhile a chamber under the
ground; and when his chamber was finished, he disappeared from among
the Thracians and went down into the underground chamber, where he
continued to live for three years: and they grieved for his loss and
mourned for him as dead. Then in the fourth year he appeared to the
Thracians, and in this way the things which Salmoxis said became
credible to them. . Thus they say that he did; but
as to this matter and the chamber under ground, I neither disbelieve it
nor do I very strongly believe, but I think that this Salmoxis lived
many years before Pythagoras. However, whether there ever lived a man
Salmoxis, or whether he is simply a native deity of the Getai, let us
bid farewell to him now.
The simplemindnes of Thracians should be ignored :) Thank you, nikodemos.
Here is another interesting passage about Zalmoxis. He was not only a slave of Pythagoras but also had been to Egypt. Probably studied esoteric sciences there :)
By Strabo:
5 In fact, it is said that a certain man of the Getae, Zamolxis by name, had been a slave to Pythagoras, and had learned some things about the heavenly bodies from him,73 as also certain other things from the Egyptians, for in his wanderings he had gone even as far as Egypt; and when he came on back to his home-land he was eagerly courted by the rulers and the people of the tribe, because he could make predictions from the celestial signs; and at last he persuaded the king to take him as a partner in the government, on the ground that he was competent to report the will of the gods; and although at the outset he was only made a priest of the god who was most honoured in their country, yet afterwards he was even addressed as p187god, and having taken possession of a certain cavernous place that was inaccessible to anyone else he spent his life there, only rarely meeting with any people outside except the king and his own attendants; and the king cooperated with him, because he saw that the people paid much more attention to himself than before, in the belief that the decrees which he promulgated were in accordance with the counsel of the gods. This custom persisted even down to our own time, because some man of that character was always to be found, who, though in fact only a counsellor to the king, was called god among the Getae. And the people took up the notion that the mountain74 was sacred and they so call it, but its name is Cogaeonum,75 like that of the river which flows past it. So, too, at the time when Byrebistas,76 against whom already77 the Deified Caesar had prepared to make an expedition, was reigning over the Getae, the office in question was held by Decaeneus, and somehow or other the Pythagorean doctrine of abstention from eating any living thing still survived as taught by Zamolxis.
Interesting paragraph about Thracian religious customs. They had something like a sect that kept themself apart from women and didn't eat any meat. Some people find similarities with Bogomils and Cathars.
Others had many wifes and were let say "less religious". We thank Strabo about this information:
3 Poseidonius goes on to say of the Mysians that in accordance with their religion they abstain from eating any living thing, and therefore from their flocks as well; and that they use as food honey and milk and cheese, living a peaceable life, and for this reason are called both "god-fearing" and "capnobatae";66 and there are some of the Thracians who live apart from woman-kind; these are called "Ctistae,"67 and because of the honour in which they are held, have been dedicated to the gods and live with freedom from every fear; p181accordingly, Homer speaks collectively of all these peoples as "proud Hippemolgi, Galactophagi and Abii, men most just," but he calls them "Abii" more especially for this reason, that they live apart from women, since he thinks that a life which is bereft of woman is only half-complete (just as he thinks the "house of Protesilaьs" is only "half complete," because it is so bereft68 ); and he speaks of the Mysians as "hand-to‑hand fighters" because they were indomitable, as is the case with all brave warriors; and Poseidonius adds that in the Thirteenth Book69 one should read "Moesi, hand-to‑hand fighters" instead of "Mysi, hand-to‑hand fighters."
The rest part of this interesting reading is here:
Which are the connections between Bulgarians and Thracians?
I mean linguistically,culturally,historically and even genetically.
I think that the central Balkan tribes(Dardanoi,Paionians) were a mix between Thracians and Illyrians,thats why we are a little bit confused with them.
Do you have any maps with the ancient balkan cities and areas?
PS: Menumorut do you have any other like the one you send in the "Greek colonies" thread?
Or maybe they are predecesors of both Illyrians and Thracians? Both these tribes are Indoeuropean, and before them there was quite a large culuture in the Blakans like Vucedolians, Minoans, the Daniloi etc. Now that's ancient!
Interesting paragraph about Thracian religious customs. They had
something like a sect that kept themself apart from women and didn't
eat any meat. Some people find similarities with Bogomils and Cathars.
In my opinion these religious customs actually bear resemblance to the
religious customs and practice of the orthodox monastic communities.Perhaps many of the first christian
hermits were influenced by these religious cults or perhaps many of the
hermits were even thracian in origin.We know for example that in Sinai
there was a Bessic monastic community.
Nice post Anton
The Thracians are the most powerful people in the world, except,
of course, the Indians; and if they had one head, or were agreed among
themselves, it is my belief that their match could not be found anywhere,
and that they would very far surpass all other nations. But such union
is impossible for them, and there are no means of ever bringing it about.
Herein therefore consists their weakness. The Thracians bear many names
in the different regions of their country, but all of them have like usages
in every respect, excepting only the Getae, the Trausi, and those who dwell
above the people of Creston.
Now the manners and customs of the Getae, who believe in their
immortality, I have already spoken of. The Trausi in all else resemble
the other Thracians, but have customs at births and deaths which I will
now describe. When a child is born all its kindred sit round about it in
a circle and weep for the woes it will have to undergo now that it is come
into the world, making mention of every ill that falls to the lot of humankind;
when, on the other hand, a man has died, they bury him with laughter and
rejoicings, and say that now he is free from a host of sufferings, and
enjoys the completest happiness.
The Thracians who live above the Crestonaeans observe the following
customs. Each man among them has several wives; and no sooner does a man
die than a sharp contest ensues among the wives upon the question which
of them all the husband loved most tenderly; the friends of each eagerly
plead on her behalf, and she to whom the honour is adjudged, after receiving
the praises both of men and women, is slain over the grave by the hand
of her next of kin, and then buried with her husband. The others are sorely
grieved, for nothing is considered such a disgrace.
The Thracians who do not belong to these tribes have the customs
which follow. They sell their children to traders. On their maidens they
keep no watch, but leave them altogether free, while on the conduct of
their wives they keep a most strict watch. Brides are purchased of their
parents for large sums of money. Tattooing among them marks noble birth,
and the want of it low birth. To be idle is accounted the most honourable
thing, and to be a tiller of the ground the most dishonourable. To live
by war and plunder is of all things the most glorious. These are the most
remarkable of their customs.
Herodotos informs us that the Thracians used to sell their children to
traders.They sold their children sometimes in exchange for salt.Most of
the thracians were shepherds and
stockbreeders and many of the tribes lived far from the sea.Therefore
the salt was very valuable to them and to their animals,sheep,cattle
etc.We know that salt is necessary to the humans and the animals in
order for them to survive.It was a matter of life and death to find
salt.The only way to obtain it was through purchasing it by traders.I
guess that few thracians would have coins in order to buy the salt.Thus
they sold their own children.
Perhaps they didn't want their children to have this kind of life,so
they sold them as slaves.Another reason may have been the fact that
they had high birth rates so the thracians sold the children that were
in surplass to avoid overpopulation and famine.
I have found some information concerning the number of the people living in thrace
According to the new penguin atlas of ancient history in 362 A.D. the
population in northern thrace(north of Rhodope),Dardania and
Moesia(Upper and Lower) was about 1.000.000 people.
According to other sources the population of the trhacians before the
conquest of thrace by the Romans was also 1.000.000,of which
about 775.000 lived southern of Mt.Haemus and about 225.000 lived
north of Heamus,in Moesia.
Macedonia-Thrace Almopians,Visaltes,Vistonians,Votieas,Vriges,Graai,Deriopians,Dologians,Elimiotians,Eordians,Edonians,Kikonians,Krestonians,Lyngestes,Makednoi,Mecedonians,Mygdodians,Odomantes,Odreseans,Orestians,Peonians,pelagonians,Pierians,Sithonians,Sinties,Sendoi and Odians.
Thessalia
Aiolians,Aimonians,Thessalians,Lapithes,Magnetes,Pelasgians,Penestians,Perraivians,Proto-Achaians,Fthias and Flegues
Epirus
Athamanes,Aithikes,Arktanes,Antintanes,Grekoi,Thesprotians,Kasopians,Molossians,Paraveans,Parroreans,Selloi,Tymphians and Chaones.
All the above sub-tribes were part of the major tribes(Pelasgians, Greeks, Illyrians, Thracians and Paeonians).Apologise for the hard reading of some tribe names.
source
Dictionary of the ancient Greek and round Helladic tribes
nikodemos in what evidence your sources relied for the census estimation in the mentioned regions?
Akritas,i am afraid that you are asking me something that is beyond my knowledge.
I know that certain scientists deal with these matters,called historical demographers.
Historical demographers generally use many sources.They collect the data from the sources and then they
create databases from which they construct the population maps and charts.
For the estimation of the population of Thrace,Moesia and Dardania during the Roman times, i guess Roman population cencuses
were used along with other data
For the estimation of the population before the Roman conquest i guess that the population size and mortility rates
would be estimated according to archeological findings such as the size of settlements,agricultural technology,skeletal remains,
estimation of the availability of resources in order the region to
sustain a certain amount of population provided that they used the
technology of their time,
historical accounts of invasions or migrations from other regions etc.
I am sorry but i know little on historical demography.You can search the web for historical demography methods,if you want.
Perhaps other people in this forum may have better knowledge on how these estimates are made.
The estimation of the population of Thrace,Moesia and Dardania in 362 A.D. comes from a population map that
I found in an atlas of ancient history by Colin Mc Evedy(penguin books).
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