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Ancient Nations of the Balkans

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Baron
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  Quote Brainstorm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Ancient Nations of the Balkans
    Posted: 29-Sep-2006 at 13:19
Thracians,Mysians,Illyrians,Triballoi,Paeonians,Agrians and all the other forgotten nations...
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Sep-2006 at 13:23
Correction number one -- Moesians are Thracian tribe. Read Strabo first Wink
 
"Now the Greeks used to suppose that the Getae were Thracians; and the Getae lived on either side the Ister, as did also the Mysi, these also being Thracians and identical with the people who are now called Moesi; from these Mysi sprang also the Mysi who now live between the Lydians and the p177Phrygians and Trojans."
 
 
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  Quote Brainstorm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Sep-2006 at 13:29
And according to others,Paeonians or Agrianes may were Thracians ...
Calm down...nobody offended your "thracian heritage" !
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Sep-2006 at 13:37
And nobody is offended Smile So what is your question and suggestion?
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  Quote Patrinos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Sep-2006 at 13:40
Which are the connections between Bulgarians and Thracians?
I mean linguistically,culturally,historically and even genetically.
 
I think that the central Balkan tribes(Dardanoi,Paionians) were a mix between Thracians and Illyrians,thats why we are a little bit confused with them. 
 
Do you have any maps with the ancient balkan cities and areas?
 PS: Menumorut do you have any other like the one you send in the "Greek colonies" thread? 


Edited by Patrinos - 29-Sep-2006 at 13:44
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  Quote Brainstorm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Sep-2006 at 13:42
My suggestion is t odiscuss for the ancient tribes of Balcans,
their history,military warefare,culture ,
without trying to present them as the "glorious distant past" of every modern national (or better nationalistic?) state of the region.
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Sep-2006 at 14:02
Patrinos you may found a lot of flame war about this in Antropology forum Smile
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Sep-2006 at 14:08
Originally posted by Brainstorm

My suggestion is t odiscuss for the ancient tribes of Balcans,
their history,military warefare,culture ,
without trying to present them as the "glorious distant past" of every modern national (or better nationalistic?) state of the region.
 
I will start with the posting of some links about Thracians. Here is Kroraina's site:
 
Thracian language:
 
Thracian culture:
 
Some beautifull staff:
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  Quote nikodemos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Sep-2006 at 06:20
Dareios then set out from thence and came to another river whose name is Artescos, which flows through the land of the Odrysians. Having come to this river he did as follows: -- he appointed a place for his army and bade every man as he passed out by it place one stone in this appointed place: and when the army had performed this, then he marched away his army leaving behind great mounds of these stones. 93. But before he came to the Ister he conquered first the Getai, who believe in immortality: for the Thracians who occupy Salmydessos and are settled above the cities of Apollonian and Mesambria, called the Kyrmianai  and the Nipsaioi, delivered themselves over to Dareios without fighting; but the Getai, who are the bravest and the most upright in their dealings of all the Thracians, having betaken themselves to obstinacy were forthwith subdued. 94. And their belief in immortality is of this kind, that is to say, they hold that they do not die, but that he who is killed goes to Salmoxis,  a divinity, whom some of them call Gebeleizis; and at intervals of four years  they send one of themselves, whomsoever the lot may select, as a messenger to Salmoxis, charging him with such requests as they have to make on each occasion; and they send him thus: -- certain of them who are appointed for this have three javelins, and others meanwhile take hold on both sides of him who is being sent to Salmoxis, both by his hands and his feet, and first they swing him up, then throw him into the air so as to fall upon the spear-points: and if when he is pierced through he is killed, they think that the god is favourable to them; but if he is not killed, they find fault with the messenger himself, calling him a worthless man, and then having found fault with him they send another: and they give him the charge beforehand, while he is yet alive. These same Thracians also shoot arrows up towards the sky when thunder and lightning come, and use threats to the god, not believing that there exists any other god except their own. 95. This Salmoxis I hear from the Hellenes who dwell about the Hellespont and the Pontus, was a man, and he became a slave in Samos, and was in fact a slave of Pythagoras the son of Mnesarchos. Then having become free he gained great wealth, and afterwards returned to his own land: and as the Thracians both live hardly and are rather simple-minded, this Salmoxis, being acquainted with the Ionian way of living and with manners more cultivated  than the Thracians were used to see, since he had associated with Hellenes (and not only that but with Pythagoras, not the least able philosopher  of the Hellenes), prepared a banqueting-hall,  where he received and feasted the chief men of the tribe and instructed them meanwhile that neither he himself nor his guests nor their descendants in succession after them would die; but that they would come to a place where they would live for ever and have all things good. While he was doing that which has been mentioned and was saying these things, he was making for himself meanwhile a chamber under the ground; and when his chamber was finished, he disappeared from among the Thracians and went down into the underground chamber, where he continued to live for three years: and they grieved for his loss and mourned for him as dead. Then in the fourth year he appeared to the Thracians, and in this way the things which Salmoxis said became credible to them. . Thus they say that he did; but as to this matter and the chamber under ground, I neither disbelieve it nor do I very strongly believe, but I think that this Salmoxis lived many years before Pythagoras. However, whether there ever lived a man Salmoxis, or whether he is simply a native deity of the Getai, let us bid farewell to him now.

A description of the Getai by Herodotos
http://ancienthistory.about.com/library/bl/bl_text_herodotus_4.htm
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Sep-2006 at 08:02
The simplemindnes of Thracians should be ignored :) Thank you, nikodemos.
 
Here is another interesting passage about Zalmoxis. He was not only a slave of Pythagoras but also had been to Egypt. Probably studied esoteric sciences there :)
By Strabo:
5 In fact, it is said that a certain man of the Getae, Zamolxis by name, had been a slave to Pythagoras, and had learned some things about the heavenly bodies from him,73 as also certain other things from the Egyptians, for in his wanderings he had gone even as far as Egypt; and when he came on back to his home-land he was eagerly courted by the rulers and the people of the tribe, because he could make predictions from the celestial signs; and at last he persuaded the king to take him as a partner in the government, on the ground that he was competent to report the will of the gods; and although at the outset he was only made a priest of the god who was most honoured in their country, yet afterwards he was even addressed as p187god, and having taken possession of a certain cavernous place that was inaccessible to anyone else he spent his life there, only rarely meeting with any people outside except the king and his own attendants; and the king cooperated with him, because he saw that the people paid much more attention to himself than before, in the belief that the decrees which he promulgated were in accordance with the counsel of the gods. This custom persisted even down to our own time, because some man of that character was always to be found, who, though in fact only a counsellor to the king, was called god among the Getae. And the people took up the notion that the mountain74 was sacred and they so call it, but its name is Cogaeonum,75 like that of the river which flows past it. So, too, at the time when Byrebistas,76 against whom already77 the Deified Caesar had prepared to make an expedition, was reigning over the Getae, the office in question was held by Decaeneus, and somehow or other the Pythagorean doctrine of abstention from eating any living thing still survived as taught by Zamolxis.
 
Interesting paragraph about Thracian religious customs. They had something like a sect that kept themself apart from women and didn't eat any meat. Some people find similarities with Bogomils and Cathars.
Others had many wifes and were let say "less religious". We thank Strabo about this information:
 

3 Poseidonius goes on to say of the Mysians that in accordance with their religion they abstain from eating any living thing, and therefore from their flocks as well; and that they use as food honey and milk and cheese, living a peaceable life, and for this reason are called both "god-fearing" and "capnobatae";66 and there are some of the Thracians who live apart from woman-kind; these are called "Ctistae,"67 and because of the honour in which they are held, have been dedicated to the gods and live with freedom from every fear; p181accordingly, Homer speaks collectively of all these peoples as "proud Hippemolgi, Galactophagi and Abii, men most just," but he calls them "Abii" more especially for this reason, that they live apart from women, since he thinks that a life which is bereft of woman is only half-complete (just as he thinks the "house of Protesilaьs" is only "half complete," because it is so bereft68 ); and he speaks of the Mysians as "hand-to‑hand fighters" because they were indomitable, as is the case with all brave warriors; and Poseidonius adds that in the Thirteenth Book69 one should read "Moesi, hand-to‑hand fighters" instead of "Mysi, hand-to‑hand fighters."

 
 
The rest part of this interesting reading is here:
 


Edited by Anton - 30-Sep-2006 at 13:30
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  Quote Maljkovic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Oct-2006 at 08:02
Originally posted by Patrinos

Which are the connections between Bulgarians and Thracians?
I mean linguistically,culturally,historically and even genetically.


I think that the central Balkan tribes(Dardanoi,Paionians) were a mix between Thracians and Illyrians,thats why we are a little bit confused with them.


Do you have any maps with the ancient balkan cities and areas?

PS: Menumorut do you have any other like the one you send in the "Greek colonies" thread?


Or maybe they are predecesors of both Illyrians and Thracians? Both these tribes are Indoeuropean, and before them there was quite a large culuture in the Blakans like Vucedolians, Minoans, the Daniloi etc. Now that's ancient!
    
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  Quote Patrinos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Oct-2006 at 09:26
Maljkovic:
Or maybe they are predecesors of both Illyrians and Thracians?
How did you get to this conclusion??
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  Quote nikodemos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Oct-2006 at 16:21
Originally posted by Anton

 
Interesting paragraph about Thracian religious customs. They had something like a sect that kept themself apart from women and didn't eat any meat. Some people find similarities with Bogomils and Cathars.




In my opinion these religious customs actually bear resemblance to the religious customs and practice of the orthodox monastic communities.Perhaps many of the first christian hermits were influenced by these religious cults or perhaps many of the hermits were even thracian in origin.We know for example that in Sinai there was a Bessic monastic community.
Nice post AntonThumbs Up

Below a description of the customs of thracian tribes by Herodotus again
(Herodotos,Book V)
http://classics.mit.edu/Herodotus/history.5.v.html

The Thracians are the most powerful people in the world, except, of course, the Indians; and if they had one head, or were agreed among themselves, it is my belief that their match could not be found anywhere, and that they would very far surpass all other nations. But such union is impossible for them, and there are no means of ever bringing it about. Herein therefore consists their weakness. The Thracians bear many names in the different regions of their country, but all of them have like usages in every respect, excepting only the Getae, the Trausi, and those who dwell above the people of Creston.

Now the manners and customs of the Getae, who believe in their immortality, I have already spoken of. The Trausi in all else resemble the other Thracians, but have customs at births and deaths which I will now describe. When a child is born all its kindred sit round about it in a circle and weep for the woes it will have to undergo now that it is come into the world, making mention of every ill that falls to the lot of humankind; when, on the other hand, a man has died, they bury him with laughter and rejoicings, and say that now he is free from a host of sufferings, and enjoys the completest happiness.

The Thracians who live above the Crestonaeans observe the following customs. Each man among them has several wives; and no sooner does a man die than a sharp contest ensues among the wives upon the question which of them all the husband loved most tenderly; the friends of each eagerly plead on her behalf, and she to whom the honour is adjudged, after receiving the praises both of men and women, is slain over the grave by the hand of her next of kin, and then buried with her husband. The others are sorely grieved, for nothing is considered such a disgrace.

The Thracians who do not belong to these tribes have the customs which follow. They sell their children to traders. On their maidens they keep no watch, but leave them altogether free, while on the conduct of their wives they keep a most strict watch. Brides are purchased of their parents for large sums of money. Tattooing among them marks noble birth, and the want of it low birth. To be idle is accounted the most honourable thing, and to be a tiller of the ground the most dishonourable. To live by war and plunder is of all things the most glorious. These are the most remarkable of their customs. 


Edited by nikodemos - 01-Oct-2006 at 16:29
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  Quote nikodemos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Oct-2006 at 05:44
Herodotos informs us that the Thracians used to sell their children to traders.They sold their children sometimes in exchange for salt.Most of the thracians were shepherds and stockbreeders and many of the tribes lived far from the sea.Therefore the salt was very valuable to them and to their animals,sheep,cattle etc.We know that salt is necessary to the humans and the animals in order for them to survive.It was a matter of life and death to find salt.The only way to obtain it was through purchasing it by traders.I guess that few thracians would have coins in order to buy the salt.Thus they sold their own children.
Perhaps they didn't want their children to have this kind of life,so they sold them as slaves.Another reason may have been the fact that they had high birth rates so the thracians sold the children that were in surplass to avoid overpopulation and famine.

I have found some information concerning the number of the people living in thrace
According to the new penguin atlas of ancient history in 362 A.D. the population in northern thrace(north of Rhodope),Dardania and Moesia(Upper and Lower) was about 1.000.000 people.
According to other sources the population of the trhacians before the conquest of thrace by the Romans was also 1.000.000,of which about  775.000 lived southern of Mt.Haemus and about 225.000 lived north of Heamus,in Moesia.


Edited by nikodemos - 02-Oct-2006 at 05:48
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  Quote akritas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Oct-2006 at 05:48
nikodemos in what evidence your sources relied for the census estimation in the mentioned regions?
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  Quote akritas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Oct-2006 at 06:23

Macedonia-Thrace Almopians,Visaltes,Vistonians,Votieas,Vriges,Graai,Deriopians,Dologians,Elimiotians,Eordians,Edonians,Kikonians,Krestonians,Lyngestes,Makednoi,Mecedonians,Mygdodians,Odomantes,Odreseans,Orestians,Peonians,pelagonians,Pierians,Sithonians,Sinties,Sendoi and Odians.

 
Thessalia
Aiolians,Aimonians,Thessalians,Lapithes,Magnetes,Pelasgians,Penestians,Perraivians,Proto-Achaians,Fthias and Flegues
 
Epirus
Athamanes,Aithikes,Arktanes,Antintanes,Grekoi,Thesprotians,Kasopians,Molossians,Paraveans,Parroreans,Selloi,Tymphians and Chaones.
 
All the above sub-tribes were part of the major tribes(Pelasgians, Greeks, Illyrians, Thracians and Paeonians).Apologise for the hard reading of some tribe names.
 
source
Dictionary of the ancient Greek and round Helladic tribes
Evaggelidis,2004
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  Quote nikodemos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Oct-2006 at 06:50
Originally posted by akritas

nikodemos in what evidence your sources relied for the census estimation in the mentioned regions?


Akritas,i am afraid that you are asking me something that is beyond my knowledge.
I know that certain scientists deal with these matters,called historical demographers.
Historical demographers generally use many sources.They collect the data from the sources and then they
create databases from which they construct the population maps and charts.
For the estimation of the population of Thrace,Moesia and Dardania during the Roman times, i guess Roman population cencuses
were used along with other data
For the estimation of the population before the Roman conquest i guess that the population size and mortility rates
would be estimated according to archeological findings such as the size of settlements,agricultural technology,skeletal remains,
estimation of the availability of resources in order the region to sustain a certain amount of population provided that they used the technology of their time,
historical accounts of invasions or migrations from other regions etc.
I am sorry but i know little on historical demography.You can search the web for historical demography methods,if you want.
Perhaps other people in this forum may have better knowledge on how these estimates are made.
The estimation of the population of Thrace,Moesia and Dardania in 362 A.D. comes from a population map that
I found in an atlas of ancient history by Colin Mc Evedy(penguin books).
 


Edited by nikodemos - 02-Oct-2006 at 06:53
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Oct-2006 at 13:09
I might be wrong but my impression was that it was Herodotus who spoke about million and second largest nation after indians.
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  Quote akritas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Oct-2006 at 13:16
Originally posted by Anton

I might be wrong but my impression was that it was Herodotus who spoke about million and second largest nation after indians.
Anton Herodotus spoke for the most numerous people( ethnos megiston)after the Indians.
He doesn't mention at all for numbers.
 
 
 
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  Quote Istor the Macedonian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Oct-2006 at 13:27
"culture" of Dardanians:

Strabo wrote that they made caves in animal sh*t tomps to live in and they were washed three times in their life: at birth, marriage and death.

Recently a Bulgarian intellectual said speaking about Enlightenment: " dark will not desappear ".

maybe because human beings are not un-mortal. Young people need to rediscover the "wheel"


Edited by Istor the Macedonian - 02-Oct-2006 at 14:13
Istor
Macedonian, therefore Greek!
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