Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)
ethnicity - nationality - race |
Post Reply 
|
Page 123 4> |
| Author |
 Share Topic Printable Version Google Delicious Digg StumbleUpon Windows Live Yahoo Bookmarks reddit Facebook MySpace Newsvine Furl Topic Search  Topic Options
|
||||||||
calvo 
General 
Joined: 20-May-2007 Location: Spain Online Status: Offline Posts: 846 |
 Quote Reply
 Topic: ethnicity - nationality - racePosted: 27-Jun-2007 at 14:08 |
||||||||
|
When classifying that dividing populations anthropologically, people often use the terms: ethnicity, nationality, and race. the terms "ethnicity" and "race" are used by many interchangeably, but in reality they carry distinct meaning. The former refers to a group identity primarily based on language, customs, culture, religion, behaviour as well as descent, while the latter refers soley to genetics.
Many homogenous "ethnicities" are descended from people of diverse genetic backgrounds, as well as distinct "ethnics" may belong to the same "race".
The term "nationality" has a double meaning. Politically it refers to citizenship, while anthropologically it refers to the same thing as "ethnicity".
Different parts of the world have different perceptions of "ethnicity". In Eastern Europe and the Balkans, for example, "ethnicity" is an important issue. In some areas despite neighbours of Slavic, Greek, albanian, Romanian, or Hungarian origin have been living together for generations, they still have a strong consciousnous of their ethnic identity.
In other areas, like Spain, for example, while regional cultural diversity exists, "ethnic consciousnous" does not. Whilst there are differences between Catalonia, Castilla, Basque Country, and Asturias, anyone born and raised in the area is considered a native, regardless of his family origin.
Some sociologists have debated whether a "Spanish ethnic identity" exists
it all depends on the mentality
|
|||||||||
 |
|||||||||
|
Traveller
Knight 
Joined: 16-Jun-2007 Online Status: Offline Posts: 64 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 02-Jul-2007 at 07:16 |
||||||||
I agree.
 Ethnicity is more or less 'perceived identity'.
You covered ethnicity and nationality.Seems you forgot race...calvo.
Edited by Traveller - 02-Jul-2007 at 07:17 |
|||||||||
|
|||||||||
|
|||||||||
|
calvo
General
Joined: 20-May-2007 Location: Spain Online Status: Offline Posts: 846 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 02-Jul-2007 at 10:59 |
||||||||
|
"Race" strictly refers to biological descent and genetic similarity.
In the 19th century, before the study of DNA, anthropologists based the definition of "race" largely on the colour of skin. However, this is now found to be unreliable because the colour of one's skin, as much as the physical features, are results of adaptation to climate.
Many times 2 genetically related populations may not look alike, and 2 genetically more distint population may look alike because they adapted to the same climate.
While genetic diversity among humans do exist, it is small compared to other species as human evolution survived a bottleneck.
Apparently all non-Africans descend form less than 200 individuals who left the "old continent" no more than 70,000 years ago...., and most native Americans descend from 50 people who crossed the strait some 20,000 years ago!
Considering how differently man has evolved in different continents over such few generations is rather impressive.
---------------------------------------------
Most of the international and social conflicts and alliances are based on "ethnicity" or "nationality" rather than "race" - although often we confuse the matters.
A "racial identity" could also be an "ethnicty" in some societies, but not in others.
For example, in the USA, "White" is an "ethnic identity" as "White Americans" have their own cultural and social identity; while in Latin America and continental Europe, "White" is NOTan ethnic identity and is only used colloquially to describe the way someone looks.
|
|||||||||
|
|||||||||
|
Cywr
King 
Retired AE Moderator Joined: 03-Aug-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 6003 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 02-Jul-2007 at 16:58 |
||||||||
|
AFIAK, pre-genetics study of race focused rather heavily on things like skull shape more so than skin colour.
Skin colour was just fodder for the masses, easier to swallow and all that. |
|||||||||
 Arrrgh!!"
|
|||||||||
|
|||||||||
|
elenos
Chieftain 
Joined: 13-Jun-2007 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1457 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 03-Jul-2007 at 02:44 |
||||||||
|
Skin color is an important adaptation the the environment over time. We evolve according to our environment and not in spite of it, but these days who can tell, we are not confined by environment anymore. Other ecological adaptations are hight, body hair and so on.
|
|||||||||
|
elenos
|
|||||||||
|
|||||||||
|
Traveller
Knight
Joined: 16-Jun-2007 Online Status: Offline Posts: 64 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 03-Jul-2007 at 03:47 |
||||||||
Could you post some pics to prove your point calvo.
So what about maps showing genetics distances between groups of people.Iranians and Germans are certainly not the same people genetically,are they? Edited by Traveller - 03-Jul-2007 at 05:23 |
|||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
|
|||||||||
|
calvo
General
Joined: 20-May-2007 Location: Spain Online Status: Offline Posts: 846 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 03-Jul-2007 at 06:57 |
||||||||
|
Traveller,
I do not have any photos to prove my point, but lets apply some common knowledge.
Genetically speaking, the diversity among black Africans is as great as the rest of the world put together, and the biological differences between black Africans of distinct populations could be much greater than that between, for example, a Swede, a Chinese, and a Mayan Indian. However, due to adaptation to the African sun, all Africans have dark skin and are colloquially referred to as: the black race. In reality, the black race is composed as several distinct genetic clusters. Native Americans, for example, have the lowest genetic diversity, and most of their ancestry can be traced to a small population that originated in the Altai Mountains. Most probably, the genetic distance between distinct Turco-Mongol peoples living from the Altai to Manchuria is much greater than the entire native population of the Americas; nevertheless, physically they are more similar to each other than to say; the differences observed between a North American plain Indian, a Central American Mayan, and a South American Mapuche for example. Among Europeans, physical differences are more pronounced from north to south. A typical Englishman is usually very distinguishable from a typical Spaniard (I use the word typical, not in all cases), but not from a typical Russian or Estonian. However, the real difference in Halogroups among Europeans is more pronounced from East to West than from North to South. Due to the Mediterranean climate must southern Europeans have darker features, and the lack of sunlight makes northern and eastern European have a similarly light colouring, but it doesnt impply that northern Europeans are more related to eastern Europeans than to southerners. Apparently, Middle Eastern Arabs and North African Moors are descended from distinct populations, yet they look alike for their desert-adapted features Some Anatolian Turks may have a similar look to Mexicans, yet the 2 nationalities are barely related genetically. The former are a mixture between Balkan, Middle-Eastern, and Central Asian elements, and the latter are a mixture between Iberian and Meso-American. These are just a few example.
According to an edition of National Geographic, it has been found that much of European genes came from India; yet Europeans and Indians today barely look alike.
|
|||||||||
|
|||||||||
|
Traveller
Knight
Joined: 16-Jun-2007 Online Status: Offline Posts: 64 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 03-Jul-2007 at 07:13 |
||||||||
I say let's apply science which you seem to be applying later in your post {ofcourse population genetics is an emerging science and we have just started exploring human genetic diversity}.
Herez where maps of genetic distances which I refered to in my earlier post come into play.My friend are you sure all Africans have dark skin.I say let's apply common sense.
Most probably, the genetic distance between distinct Turco-Mongol peoples living from the Altai to Manchuria is much greater than the entire native population of the Americas; nevertheless, physically they are more similar to each other than to say; the differences observed between a North American plain Indian, a Central American Mayan, and a South American Mapuche for example. Unfortunately not many "pure" native americans left.
He won't look foreign in Spain,would he.
  Or for that matter in Middle East or North Africa. 
Do you include both Matrilineages and Patrilineages in calculation of genetic distance between these groups of people.
Educate me more on this issue.
I agree however I'm sure that there is no typical Anatolian Turk or Mexican look.
Which genes are we talking about here.
I still believe pictures are better than words specially to educate stupid people like me. Edited by Traveller - 03-Jul-2007 at 07:16 |
|||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
|
|||||||||
|
elenos
Chieftain
Joined: 13-Jun-2007 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1457 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 03-Jul-2007 at 08:36 |
||||||||
|
When in Northern India I saw no difference between the people there and the British in particular, they had the same type of faces, and that includes a whole range of types. The Indians are dark with dark eyes and black hair, but otherwise the facial similarities are striking. They are many types of native British and you can tell where they came from just by looking. The earliest type of Briton is the heavy set Welshman.
I can also see a difference between some Asian types and many are amazed that I can immediately say where they came from, it is easy enough once you have been in their countries. I learned this little poem when I was a child Do not judge by shapes of faces Try the unexpected places. |
|||||||||
|
elenos
|
|||||||||
|
|||||||||
|
Cywr
King
Retired AE Moderator Joined: 03-Aug-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 6003 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 03-Jul-2007 at 09:15 |
||||||||
Remind me where i claimed they were?
Kinky :) |
|||||||||
|
Arrrgh!!"
|
|||||||||
|
|||||||||
|
Traveller
Knight
Joined: 16-Jun-2007 Online Status: Offline Posts: 64 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 03-Jul-2007 at 09:34 |
||||||||
So you think Monty and Freddie just happen to have different types of faces.
Then how about Iranians and Germans who share Haplogroups like R1a1 or R1b.They won't be genetically distinct,would they?
Edited by Traveller - 03-Jul-2007 at 09:38 |
|||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
|
|||||||||
|
Cywr
King
Retired AE Moderator Joined: 03-Aug-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 6003 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 03-Jul-2007 at 09:43 |
||||||||
|
You tell me, i have not once brought up genetics in this thread.
|
|||||||||
|
Arrrgh!!"
|
|||||||||
|
|||||||||
|
Traveller
Knight
Joined: 16-Jun-2007 Online Status: Offline Posts: 64 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 03-Jul-2007 at 09:49 |
||||||||
|
You did talk about pre-genetics era Mr.Cywr.
AFIAK, pre-genetics study of race focused rather heavily on things like skull shape more so than skin colour.
Skin colour was just fodder for the masses, easier to swallow and all that. |
|||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
|
|||||||||
|
Cywr
King
Retired AE Moderator Joined: 03-Aug-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 6003 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 03-Jul-2007 at 09:55 |
||||||||
|
Yes, pre-genetics, not genetics. You'll note that the pre-genetics era was defined by an absence of knowledge on genetics. Though that didn't stop people from putting Germans and Iranians in the same major classification. Maybe they were on to something? Ask a geneticist.
|
|||||||||
|
Arrrgh!!"
|
|||||||||
|
|||||||||
|
Traveller
Knight
Joined: 16-Jun-2007 Online Status: Offline Posts: 64 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 03-Jul-2007 at 10:08 |
||||||||
So you did bring up genetics.
Do we have a geneticist on this forum?
|
|||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
|
|||||||||
|
Cywr
King
Retired AE Moderator Joined: 03-Aug-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 6003 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 03-Jul-2007 at 10:17 |
||||||||
|
No, i mentioned the word 'pre-genetics' in relation to a comment on 19th century race classifications. Not once in that post did i actualy make a comment related to genetics itself, or Iranians, or Germans.
No idea, but quoting people who are actualy discussiong genetics, or even genetics in relation to your German and Iranian friends, might be a good way to bring one out of the woodwork. |
|||||||||
|
Arrrgh!!"
|
|||||||||
|
|||||||||
|
calvo
General
Joined: 20-May-2007 Location: Spain Online Status: Offline Posts: 846 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 03-Jul-2007 at 11:40 |
||||||||
|
Traveller,
I am not a genetic expert, but to understand the subject better, I recomend this site:
Regarding the distribution of X and Y halogroups, here is a map of Europe:
As one can see, the differences across Europeans is greater from East to West than from North to South.
However, genetics is still an open subject and new discoveries are constantly popping up giving rise to new interpretations. What we know today is not the absolute truth and far from it.
In the Wikipedia article about Spanish people, there is a section stating the "genetic similarities" between the populations of the Iberian Peninsula and the British Isles.
However, in physical appearance the Spaniards are in general a "Mediterranean" people with brown-dark hair, olive skin, and smaller build; while the typical Anglo-Saxon people are of "Northern-European" extraction with taller build, lighter hair, and pale skin that goes red under the sun.
As a Briton living in Spain, I travel a lot between the 2 countries and notice this difference in physionomy every time I get off the plane.
If this article was right, British natives are genetically more related to Spaniards and Portuguese than they are to any other European nationality; nevertheless, adaptation to distinct climates made them look more different than say, between Britons and Finns.
|
|||||||||
|
|||||||||
|
elenos
Chieftain
Joined: 13-Jun-2007 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1457 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 03-Jul-2007 at 20:11 |
||||||||
|
Ah, now there's the right word Calvo, physionomy. You are a real scholar. A lot can be observed about people without having to go into genetics. I get the feeling that this blood test stuff for ethnic type is biased. They can be accurate but depends on how the samples are taken and what is being looked for. I won't go into it but reports of fraudulent practices are many.
The Mediterranean type evolved living in scrub and forest lands and being tall had no advantage. Those further north lived in forest and grasslands. It was of advantage to be taller for hunting the big game of Europe. However there were smaller tribes, like the "beaker people" who obviously evolved in the woodlands and spread out during a time of climatic change and the big game lost the struggle to survive. Remember the Irish legends about the leprechauns? There really were little people that died out long ago. Then there are cranium types. It has bee said for hundreds of years the high forehead came from the hill or alpine people. Donald Sutherland and his son Keifer are a good example. |
|||||||||
|
elenos
|
|||||||||
|
|||||||||
|
Traveller
Knight
Joined: 16-Jun-2007 Online Status: Offline Posts: 64 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 04-Jul-2007 at 00:05 |
||||||||
This page says : What are the main anthropological questions from your region you hope to address with the Genographic Project?
I also hope to understand the pattern of gene flow in northeast India. How does interbreeding and marriage within a specific group as required by custom or law influence the population structure? Where did Dravidian-speakers originate? What is the origin of the Vedic people? What role has the Indian caste system had in determining patterns of genetic mixing? To whom are the Andamanese most closely related? Do you think it's possible to say with any degree of accuracy where a language/language family originated through population genetics.Some people associate R1a1 with proto-Indo European people.I think it's a bit immature to associate a Haplogroup with a language or ethnicity.Even though today a population group may have 50-60% people with a certain haplogroup who knows which haplogroups dominated in that society 500 or a thousand years ago.
But these differences might not be that great when you compare European genes with say Papua New Guinean Genes.
How many generations do you think it takes for these changes to be visible and do you think there are factors other than climate which may cause these changes.
|
|||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
|
|||||||||
|
elenos
Chieftain
Joined: 13-Jun-2007 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1457 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 04-Jul-2007 at 01:15 |
||||||||
|
Arghh! Not genetics again! You ask some good questions Traveller and some bloody awful ones. If you think those silly sods that make a religion out of genetic blood tests have all the answers then go and grovel with them. If you want some straight, no bull answers from intelligent people on the ground then ask us!
Pay attention, you just won't find a genetic expert here! We discuss what we know and not try to rely on hearsay. Have you or have not looked at other people and seen something different that you have wondered about? That is the subject. "How many generations do you think it takes for these changes to be
visible and do you think there are factors other than climate which may
cause these changes." Now there's a good question. Wouldn't we all like to know. Why not try sharing with us some information you know about. "Do you think Monty and Freddie just happen to have different types of faces." That's not cricket! Let's put it this way. I have seen with my own eyes how Ronnie and Ranji have striking similarities in facial feature and only blind Freddy would miss that. |
|||||||||
|
elenos
|
|||||||||
|
|||||||||
|
Post Reply
|
Page 123 4> |
| Forum Jump | Forum Permissions You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum |
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz
This page was generated in 0.078 seconds.
