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Hang ups between Blacks and Africans

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  Quote joeamonroe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Hang ups between Blacks and Africans
    Posted: 10-Dec-2007 at 13:00

As an African (Black) American we are often asked the question, how would you like to be defined? Do you want to be classified as Black or African American?  Many times Im told that: why should we be called African American they think their better then us, they turn their noses up at us, they dont respect us.  For me I want to be called African at all times but how do I get my people in American to know that we Africans from around the world have been hood winked. So with this forum my intent is to ask as many Africans and Blacks what are the hang ups and why do we have them.

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  Quote Windemere Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Dec-2007 at 02:05
I always considered 'Black' a racial designation and 'Afro-American' an ethnic designation. In the city where I live just about all Black people accept that classification. The Black people descended from the original people brought over in colonial times also use the term 'Afro-American' but those who descend from later West-Indian immigrants don't use this term, they call themselves Jamaican-Americans, Trinidadian-Americans, Haitian-Americans, etc. There are also recent immigrants from African countries and ironically they also don't use the term 'Afro-American'. They call themselves Somalian, Nigerian, Ghanaian-Americans, etc.
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  Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Dec-2007 at 04:47
Originally posted by joeamonroe

Many times Im told that: why should we be called African American they think they're better then us, they turn their noses up at us, they dont respect us.



Who is this they that you are talking about? Is this referring to Black people living in America who have recently immigrated from African countries?

Edited by King John - 12-Dec-2007 at 04:47
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  Quote Brian J Checco Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Dec-2007 at 22:13
Well, it's problematic due to the complex origins of the African diaspora in America. People who's descendants were brought over during the Slave Trade period tend not to know their countries of origin, except in circumstances where the family did an extensive job of preserving their oral histories; and even in those cases, this falls short since the geopolitical map of Africa looks very different today than it did during the 17th, 18th, and 19th centuries... In fact, not all 'black' slaves were brought from Africa, but from other regions where comparable skin tones can be found (one can be sure that slave traders weren't too picky about where slaves came from; if they were dark enough, they could be sold in market)- such as the Canary Islands, and other places. So the term African-American may not even be an accurate label in some cases, as they may not have come from Africa.

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  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Dec-2007 at 00:00
There are no African-German, Irish-English, Italian-French....
 
Calling yourself African-American, Italian-American, Irish-American is a unique phenomena to the US, so a piece of uniquely American culture.
 
Someone who calls themselves African-American is showing themselves to be very American and not very African
 
 


Edited by Paul - 13-Dec-2007 at 00:31
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Dec-2007 at 00:09
America though is one of the few countries the name of which does not denote any one ethnic group.  England for example is the land of the English; someone calling himself Pakistani-English would give me the impression that he's multi-ethnic.

Edited by Zagros - 13-Dec-2007 at 00:10
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Dec-2007 at 00:51

I some Latin American countries that have Black minorities (Cuba, Brazil, DR, for example), if a dark skinned person call itself "African" would be considered a traitor to its country, or a very strange person.

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  Quote joeamonroe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Dec-2007 at 19:01

Many countries don't face this problem but its a real problem in the US. this country has divided and conquered its people since it started. While the US may claim to be free we are behind in so many areas

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  Quote Brian J Checco Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Dec-2007 at 20:01
True, but many countries face much much worse problems than disagreements on how to "label" individual ethnicities within it's own borders...
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  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Dec-2007 at 20:33
Why is it a bad thing? It's noevel, but why bad?
 
Americans are always complaining they don't have enough culture of their own, here's one. Celebrate it!
 
In the US you can be "??????"-Americans.
 
OK it's not actually true, but it's a pleasant fantasy. And as a wise man once said, 'history is an agreed upon lie'.
 
 
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  Quote Brian J Checco Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Dec-2007 at 20:45
You mean Napoleon? "What is history but a fable agreed upon?"
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  Quote JanusRook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Dec-2007 at 04:33

Americans are always complaining they don't have enough culture of their own, here's one. Celebrate it!


Actually many descendents of Scots-Irish frontiersmen and descendents of thoroughly mixed (european) ancestors have begun to Celebrate it...

Of course the ????-American racket is still pretty strong in many regions of the US....


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  Quote jdalton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Dec-2007 at 05:19
Originally posted by Windemere

I always considered 'Black' a racial designation and 'Afro-American' an ethnic designation.

That's how I've always understood them too. African Americans are a distinct ethnic group with their own history, culture, traditions, and even language (well, dialect). But Black Canadians are not African American, nor are Black British people, or Afro-Caribbeans, or Africans.

Words are flexible, though. People use different words for different reasons and there's not necessarily anything wrong with that.
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  Quote olvios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Dec-2007 at 09:34
For us in Greece "black" is not a racist word but African-American seems like technical....but i get the notion that simply being called black in the US may seem a racial slur.But i still don't get it in the end.Confused
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  Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Dec-2007 at 12:45
Originally posted by joeamonroe

As an African (Black) American we are often asked the question, how would you like to be defined? Do you want to be classified as Black or African American?  Many times Im told that: why should we be called African American they think their better then us, they turn their noses up at us, they dont respect us.  For me I want to be called African at all times but how do I get my people in American to know that we Africans from around the world have been hood winked. So with this forum my intent is to ask as many Africans and Blacks what are the hang ups and why do we have them.


I've always had problems with the term African American, for two reasons. First it doesn't necessarily indicate a Black man; it also includes the Arabs and Berbers of North Africa. And second, these so-called African Americans have been settled in America for as long or even longer than many White Americans, yet you never hear about "European Americans" - why is it necessary to indicate continent of origin for one group but not another?

Also, I've never understood the disdain with which some people (both White and Black) regard the term Negro, as it means exactly the same as Black, just in Spanish. Why is this word more derogative in Spanish than in English?
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  Quote Windemere Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Dec-2007 at 18:49
Actually in the U.S.A. , 'black' and 'negro' aren't racist terms at all. (They're 'racial' terms, but not 'racist') They're used with pride by black people of all ethnicities. (They're the counterpart of 'white' or 'caucasian').
 
In the U.S.A., 'African-American' (or Afro-American) does refer to black people, not to Arabs or Berbers. This is through old established customary usage. (Arabs or Berbers are known in the U.S.A. as ethnic groups from the individual North African nation that they originated from or sometimes simply as Arabs or Berbers. It's the blacks who've lived in the U.S.A. since old colonial times that are known as Afro-Americans though, the descendants of West-Indian or African blacks are known mainly by ethnic identities from their nation of origin.
 
Once in awhile in the U.S.A. you do hear the term 'European-American' but it isn't very commonly used, it refers mainly to Americans of mixed European descent. Mostly Americans of European descent also go by the ethnic group designation ( such as Irish-, German-, Polish-American, etc) that designates the nation where their ancestors originated from.
 
One thing to remember for the U.S.A. and for other multi-racial nations is that 'racial' and 'racist' are discrete terms with very different meanings and connotations.
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  Quote joeamonroe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Dec-2007 at 20:07
this is what we have to deal with as blacks in America posted 9 December 2007
 

Op-Ed Contributor

All Brains Are the Same Color

By RICHARD E. NISBETT

Published: December 9, 2007

Ann Arbor, Mich.

JAMES WATSON, the 1962 Nobel laureate, recently asserted that he was inherently gloomy about the prospect of Africa and its citizens because all our social policies are based on the fact that their intelligence is the same as ours whereas all the testing says not really.

Dr. Watsons remarks created a huge stir because they implied that blacks were genetically inferior to whites, and the controversy resulted in his resignation as chancellor of Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory. But was he right? Is there a genetic difference between blacks and whites that condemns blacks in perpetuity to be less intelligent?

The first notable public airing of the scientific question came in a 1969 article in The Harvard Educational Review by Arthur Jensen, a psychologist at the University of California, Berkeley. Dr. Jensen maintained that a 15-point difference in I.Q. between blacks and whites was mostly due to a genetic difference between the races that could never be erased. But his argument gave a misleading account of the evidence. And others who later made the same argument Richard Herrnstein and Charles Murray in The Bell Curve, in 1994, for example, and just recently, William Saletan in a series of articles on Slate have made the same mistake.

In fact, the evidence heavily favors the view that race differences in I.Q. are environmental in origin, not genetic.

The hereditarians begin with the assertion that 60 percent to 80 percent of variation in I.Q. is genetically determined. However, most estimates of heritability have been based almost exclusively on studies of middle-class groups. For the poor, a group that includes a substantial proportion of minorities, heritability of I.Q. is very low, in the range of 10 percent to 20 percent, according to recent research by Eric Turkheimer at the University of Virginia. This means that for the poor, improvements in environment have great potential to bring about increases in I.Q.

In any case, the degree of heritability of a characteristic tells us nothing about how much the environment can affect it. Even when a trait is highly heritable (think of the height of corn plants), modifiability can also be great (think of the difference growing conditions can make).

Nearly all the evidence suggesting a genetic basis for the I.Q. differential is indirect. There is, for example, the evidence that brain size is correlated with intelligence, and that blacks have smaller brains than whites. But the brain size difference between men and women is substantially greater than that between blacks and whites, yet men and women score the same, on average, on I.Q. tests. Likewise, a group of people in a community in Ecuador have a genetic anomaly that produces extremely small head sizes and hence brain sizes. Yet their intelligence is as high as that of their unaffected relatives.

Why rely on such misleading and indirect findings when we have much more direct evidence about the basis for the I.Q. gap? About 25 percent of the genes in the American black population are European, meaning that the genes of any individual can range from 100 percent African to mostly European. If European intelligence genes are superior, then blacks who have relatively more European genes ought to have higher I.Q.s than those who have more African genes. But it turns out that skin color and negroidness of features both measures of the degree of a black persons European ancestry are only weakly associated with I.Q. (even though we might well expect a moderately high association due to the social advantages of such features).

During World War II, both black and white American soldiers fathered children with German women. Thus some of these children had 100 percent European heritage and some had substantial African heritage. Tested in later childhood, the German children of the white fathers were found to have an average I.Q. of 97, and those of the black fathers had an average of 96.5, a trivial difference.

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  Quote joeamonroe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Dec-2007 at 20:08
Part 2 of what they continue to do

White May Be Might, But It's Not Always Right

By Khalil G. Muhammad

Sunday, December 9, 2007; Page B03

Recently I showed my college students a YouTube clip of Bill Cosby's and Alvin Poussaint's appearance on "The Oprah Winfrey Show." After hearing Cosby plead for poor blacks to embrace their parenting responsibilities, many of the students said they wished their parents had followed his advice. They regretted that some of their peers had done poorly in school, abused drugs and alcohol, and run afoul of the law. These problems, they agreed, might have been avoided with more supervision at home.

They might have been the perfect audience for a Cosby town-hall lecture on the dangers of self-destructive values in black America. They might also have been perfect illustrations of the growing "values gap" between poor and middle-class blacks described in a widely cited recent Pew Research Center poll.

Except almost all my students are white.

Cosby and the recent Pew study are the latest in a long finger-wagging tradition of instructing poor blacks to lift themselves up by their bootstraps and reject pathologically "black" values. Today, rap culture is usually presented as Exhibit A, but strains of the same argument have cropped up for more than a century. If blacks would just get their act together, this old story goes, all the social inequalities between them and the rest of society would disappear.

In its coverage of the Pew report findings, National Public Radio asked whether some blacks were lagging behind because they were choosing not to become "closer to whites in their values." Unfortunately, this line of questioning reinforces one of the most persistent myths in America, that white is always right. The myth reflects an enduring double standard based on "white" and "black" explanations for social problems. And it assumes that "white" culture is the gold standard for judging everyone, despite its competing ideologies, its contradictions and its flaws, including racism.

The masquerade began over a hundred years ago. Shortly after the end of slavery, sociologists and demographers began presenting research on black failure and struggle as "indisputable" proof of black inferiority. One of the first studies was released in 1896, when the leading race-relations demographer of the period, Frederick L. Hoffman, analyzed census data showing that blacks were doing worse than whites in mortality, health, employment, education and crime. The problem was not racism, he argued, but "race traits and tendencies."

To him, the civil rights acts of the 1860s and 1870s had leveled the playing field. Blacks should be left to compete against whites on their own and face the inevitable. The black man, he wrote, "has usually but one avenue out of his dilemma -- the road to prison or to an early grave."

At the same time, when explaining rising rates of crime, suicide and mental-health problems among whites, Hoffman blamed industrialization and the strains of "modern life." He called for a reordering of the nation's economic priorities. Hoffman's study coincided with -- and provided justification for -- the Supreme Court's notorious Plessy v. Ferguson decision, which legalized segregation.

As segregation took hold, there was a powerful need to minimize the role of racism as a factor in explaining racial disparities. The "Cosby" role at the start of Jim Crow was first played by Booker T. Washington. Counseling blacks to conquer their inferiority, he repudiated civil rights activism in favor of self-help and moral regeneration.

Many whites loved Washington, and his ideas were echoed by liberal social scientists such as the psychologist G. Stanley Hall, who instructed black people to stop sympathizing "with their own criminals" and "accept without whining patheticism and corroding self-pity [their] present situation, prejudice and all."

But when Hall turned his focus on whites, his research on adolescent psychology directly influenced national efforts to protect them from the ravages of industrial capitalism. Drawing on his work, the child-welfare activist Jane Addams established Hull House in Chicago at first to help immigrant families adjust to American life, and later to save thousands of Chicago's white youth from lives of crime, violence and drug abuse attributed to "modern city conditions." But black children were not generally welcome at Hull House. Addams claimed that similar problems among black youth were due to the race's "belated" moral development, manifested in poor parenting and a lack of "social restraint."

The pioneering black social scientist W.E.B. Du Bois challenged this first generation of white liberals and social scientists, including Hoffman, on the flawed assumptions and racial double standards in their studies and in their practices. But when Du Bois tried to argue that pathology knows no color, he was ignored, criticized and dismissed by his white peers as an angry black man with, as one sociologist put it, a "chip on his shoulder."

 

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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Dec-2007 at 21:08
James Watson's allegations are a complete nonsense and he is a moron without any perception of social reality.
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  Quote jdalton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Dec-2007 at 00:20
^^ Exactly. The very premise of using IQ tests to determine intelligence has been called into question many times. You can concoct fake science, especially in league with carefully selected statistics, to prove just about anything. As the first article suggested, the genetic difference between male and female is vastly greater than the difference between black and white, and the genetic difference between male and female is immeasurably small when it comes to anything important like intelligence.
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