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Italian newspaper in the Griko (Greek) language

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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Italian newspaper in the Griko (Greek) language
    Posted: 18-Jan-2008 at 14:18
The Italian Greeks of the south have released a newspaper in the Grecanico/Griko language, called Spitta(Σπύνθα). The organisation is called "Grika milume" (We speak Greek) and focus on news from Greece, Southern Italy and various Greek & Italian traditions.

http://www.grikamilume.com/
http://www.grikamilume.com/spitta/utto.pdf

Since, Grico was an endangered language in Italy after WWII, a lot of work has been done to preserve it. It is a recognised language in Italy again. It has it's basis in Doric Greek and is very similar the Tsakonian language of the spartan villages in Greece.




Edited by Flipper - 18-Jan-2008 at 14:44


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  Quote centurion Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jan-2008 at 21:57
Yes. And if you want more information (but in Italian) about the Griko communities in the Salento, go to http://www.greciasalentina.org/L_Html/storiagrec3a9f.htm?id=6.
I am glad to see that the Greek heritage in my Italy is appreciated and defended, like with the Albanian/Croatian/Slovenian/etc..minorities in other regions of Italy.
 
One little question: why the Greeks do not behave in a similar way with their minorities? For example, a small minority like the Aromanians in the Pindus mountains should be allowed to print a newspaper in Aromanian.... Wink........
 
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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jan-2008 at 12:27
Originally posted by centurion

Yes. And if you want more information (but in Italian) about the Griko communities in the Salento, go to http://www.greciasalentina.org/L_Html/storiagrec3a9f.htm?id=6.
I am glad to see that the Greek heritage in my Italy is appreciated and defended, like with the Albanian/Croatian/Slovenian/etc..minorities in other regions of Italy.
 
One little question: why the Greeks do not behave in a similar way with their minorities? For example, a small minority like the Aromanians in the Pindus mountains should be allowed to print a newspaper in Aromanian.... Wink........
 
Centurion


Thanks centurion...

The Aromanians are not just in Pindus however...Nowadays, someone in your neighbourhood might be Aromanian/Vlach.

At various points in time they had several newspapers like "Livadi tou olympou", "Ta pitsoderitika", "Amerou" etc. Most are local but there should be maybe like 10 newspapers available. How come you concluded they do not have newspapers? Albanians released their first newspaper recently as well. It is more a matter of initiative, not law.




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  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jan-2008 at 12:48
Originally posted by centurion

I am glad to see that the Greek heritage in my Italy is appreciated and defended, like with the Albanian/Croatian/Slovenian/etc..minorities in other regions of Italy.
how is it being 'defended' ? is this newspaper being written and paid for by the central government? also how is salento griko being taken up by the youth? IIRC only the older Greeks speak it now hhmm.

If the Greek heritage was appreciated many more southern Italians would be speaking greek as their own, more so than a bunch of oldies in a few pockets.






Edited by Leonidas - 19-Jan-2008 at 12:49
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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jan-2008 at 13:07
Leonidas, I think there is a discussion if it will be teached in schools again. There's actually interest amongst Grecos there to preserve it. But as I said...This is a matter of initiative...The goverment does not actively do something, it just takes requests and approves them. No need to get in these minority discussions. I posted this a a sample of newspaper since it has interresting linguistic data, I didn't want to start funny discussions about "how oppresed the poor Greeks in Italy are and can't speak their language" or something like that.


Edited by Flipper - 19-Jan-2008 at 13:08


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  Quote Tyranos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jan-2008 at 16:20
There is a small though sizable Greek minority in Italy, same with Catholic Albanians..they arrived mainly during the fall of Constantinople in the 1400's and the Turkish/Muslim conquest of Greece and the Balkans.

The first Romance Language is Sicilian btw, and it was also the first literary language of Italy. It largely inspired Dante, who is responsible for the formation of Tuscan taking over. Today Sicilian is seeing a resurgence  but it suffered under Mussolini's reign and even after, because he wanted to create a "One Language" Italy..I can see his point, but it was a mistake .
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  Quote centurion Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jan-2008 at 21:27
Originally posted by Flipper

Leonidas, I think there is a discussion if it will be teached in schools again. There's actually interest amongst Grecos there to preserve it. But as I said...This is a matter of initiative...The goverment does not actively do something, it just takes requests and approves them. No need to get in these minority discussions. I posted this a a sample of newspaper since it has interresting linguistic data, I didn't want to start funny discussions about "how oppresed the poor Greeks in Italy are and can't speak their language" or something like that.
 
Thanks Flipper. I agree in everything written in your answer to Leonidas.
Thanks even for the names of the newspapers you gave, but I don't know if they are published in the Pindus mountains area for the local small Aromanian/Vlach minority ....Anyway, here it is an excerpt from the scholar Dr. Kahl, that says that there are no newspapers in Aromanian language published in Greece:
Intimidation and repression of Aromanians by local Greek politicians, teachers, priests as well as the nationalist press in the period between the civil war and the military dictatorship has led to a tabooing of minority topics in Greece.
I have heard about Aromanian children who were punished for speaking Aromanian at school well into the 1970s and 1980s. Aromanians with such experiences usually maintain a strong antipathy towards the Greek policy and preserve, until today (especially in the Balkans and the diaspora), feelings of belonging to an Aromanian minority.
In the last few years optimistic activities for the preservation of Aromanian culture in Greece as well as serious indications for insufficient tolerance in Greece have increased. Demirtaş-Coşkun characterises the situation of the Vlach population in Greece as "the worst when compared with other countries". Claims that "the Vlach community wants to have education and church services in Vlach" and "Greece refuses to give the Vlachs any cultural rights", represent cultural demands made by the Aromanians of Greece.  Aromanian is still learned today in the villages, but only within the families, never in associations or schools.
In the Balkans and the diaspora there are about ten Aromanian magazines, several homepages and radio stations using Aromanian, but none of them in Greece. A large part of the Aromanian community living in Greece is not interested in any initiative aimed at the preservation of the Aromanian language apart from its use in the family. Initiatives taken to protect the Aromanian culture are looked upon with mistrust (i.e. Minority Groups Research Centre, KEMO).
In Greece there is no newspaper using the Aromanian language. Finally, documentary films about Aromanians are very rare on Greek television; their language is never heard.
As you can read, Flipper,  no newspaper in Aromanian/Vlach language is published in Greece. But may be in the last year something has changed? I appreciate to know if there it is now in Greece the equivalent of "Spizza".......I would very happy it this happens, because that would mean that the European Union is REALLY influencing all its 27 countries about minority rights.
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  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jan-2008 at 03:20
actaully i don't think they are 'repressed', i was making a point about responsibility and lauguage shift which centurion seems to have missed in another thread.

BTW Centurion avoided the questions put to him.


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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jan-2008 at 10:58
Centurion, as I can see Dr Kahl is totally unaware of things there. As himself states, he has heard about these things.

The Vlach community online has a report about some of the newspapers mention and even more than I wasn't aware of.

http://www.vlahoi.net/content/view/221/68/

I suggest you use http://babelfish.altavista.com/tr to translate the content of the article of Mr Konstantinos Adam.

The first newspaper ever was released during the 50s, so the EU has nothing to do with this. I have said before that in Greece Vlachs are not seen as foreign people. Everyone knows a Vlach, everyone has visited Metsovo in Pindus at least once and everyone has eaten on a Vlach restaurant.

As for the cultural part it is popular to attend Vlach festivals all over Greece. You know there's dance, tons of wine and steaks LOL

Have a look at some videos that are online:

This one is near my village...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=RAoL3hUME9M&feature=related

and some others...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=qwkERFV4YaE
http://youtube.com/watch?v=L3BdVbh0Pos
http://youtube.com/watch?v=q1fpXbos95M
http://youtube.com/watch?v=DN7JnJ1MnoI&feature=related

As you can see centurion, Vlachs is a cultural phenomenon...During xmas for example TV programs show views from Vlach villages were Vlachs are singing xmas songs for example.


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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jan-2008 at 11:14
Also, i don't know if you people remember a case of a member that claimed to be a Vlach from Pindus, Greece, who was talking about imaginary situations of Vlachs and stuff like that. I had told him that I know Vlachophones and that one way to determine where a Vlach comes from is from the regional words. When I asked him about the meaning of some typical Vlach words used explicitely in Greece he avoided to answer them and simply dissappeared from the forum.

Just for the record, my surname has its root from a Vlach word (Kitsos = Chris). I'm not from a Vlach village, but the neighbouring villages in my area had a lot of Vlachs.

Also, lets not forget that they're people in the parliament of Vlach descend...I don't think i need to say more.


Edited by Flipper - 20-Jan-2008 at 11:15


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  Quote centurion Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jan-2008 at 20:14
FLIPPER: I translated as you indicated but I still don't find any newspaper in Aromanian language published actually in the Pindus area for the local Vlach minority. Thanks anyway. BTW I believe you talk about a "real Vlach" in another AE Forum that was closed ("Maps of the Vlachs regions") . Probably he was disgusted by the sudden close of the Topic by a greek nationalistic administrator and went away from AE.  Later he wrote in another weblog this:
 
-----------------
 
A Vlach who escaped Grecization | vlach@aol.com | IP: 82.198.250.11

I totally agree with Brunodam when he wrote that:

When you kill yourself it could be that you have gone mad and you really want to kill yourself, but also that maybe others are putting an enormous pressure on you to do so!

Therefore, are the Vlachs going mad or there is some sort of tremendous pressure currently put on them? It is quite clear that the answer is that they became suicidal because of the insuportable pressure and the nationalistic Greek environment which does not tolerate -as a rule- the presence of autochtonous ethnical minorities on the territory of Greece. So its: either become Greek either stop existing. By becoming Greek the Vlachs ceased to exist as Vlachs and became something else (i.e. assimilated, bastardized, quislings etc.). While the Greeks are set to win everything through this move, the Vlachs are loosing out totally. Its simply NOT FAIR by any standards!
So i think its time to stage back a (non-violent) fight for ethnic and cultural rights, to show the world that the Vlachs are not mere puppets of the Greek Big Brother. Not many Vlachs who escaped Hellenization are left today in Greece but there are still a few siblings of those warriors who fought for Diamandis Legions who might still want to have the last say. See what the future is bringing. Do not underestimate us REAL, unGrecized Aromanians!

P.S. Note that I use the word Greek and not Hellene since I personally do not believe the modern mixed-up neo-Greeks have much in common with the Ancient Hellenes who lived over two thousand years ago.

A Vlach who escaped Grecization
 
-----------------
 
As you can read there it is his e-mail address, if you want to contact him and get the answer to your questions.
 
LEONIDAS: I believe Flipper has answered for me, so I don't find the need to repeat. Anyway I believe Administrators should be more impartial on nationalistic issues (even if regarding their own country).
 
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  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jan-2008 at 20:32
This is great - I wish I had been taught Greek but it is difficult to learn in a non-Greek speaking world.

Donald Duck in Greek
http://youtube.com/watch?v=-DhwAbDW258&feature=related

Edited by eaglecap - 21-Jan-2008 at 02:09
Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε
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  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jan-2008 at 22:10


The same Konstantinos Adam seems behind this weird protest (which reminds me of the case of that Sotiris Bletsas which was charged for alleged spread of "false information" on Greece's minorities): http://groups.yahoo.com/group/balkanhr/message/5864
  
Anyway for various perspectives, here's another material from Thede Kahl: http://www.farsarotul.org/nl27_1.htm (he seems to address some of the periodicals mentioned by Flipper)
One from Tom Winnifrith: http://www.farsarotul.org/nl21_2.htm
And this is the report frmo Ethnologue.com: http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=rup

 

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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jan-2008 at 23:30
Originally posted by centurion

FLIPPER: I translated as you indicated but I still don't find any newspaper in Aromanian language published actually in the Pindus area for the local Vlach minority.


You mean you didn't notice that the author talks about Vlach newspapers and amongst them the newspaper "Pindos"?

Originally posted by centurion


Probably he was disgusted by the sudden close of the Topic by a greek nationalistic administrator and went away from AE.  Later he wrote in another weblog this:


Ok, so you name this administrator a nationalist...What are the quotes from the fella you posted?

Originally posted by centurion

 
As you can read there it is his e-mail address, if you want to contact him and get the answer to your questions.


I had pm:d the guy but got no answer back then...

Now, I'm surprised by the fact that I posted something about Italian citizens who speak Grecanico, without implying anything about minority problems (i was clear on that part) and you seem to take it kinda emotionaly. This thread is kinda off-topic but anyway.

I will tell you my view on the matter...

Vlachs are a linguistic group spreaded all over the Balkans. It is unclear what their exact origins are but from my point of view i believe they're eather latinized locals (Greeks, Slavs, Albanians, Dacians, Thracians etc) or descendends of Roman soldiers that remained isolated and kept their language. For me a Vlach is a countryman of mine no matter what of the above cases are valid. Isn't a citizen of Calabria a countryman of yours Centurion? As I told you before many famous and honoured people (Rigas Feraios for example) are of Vlach descend in Greece. You can see from the videos i posted that Vlachs are not a "hidden" culture in Greece.

Now, I can imagine that there might be people that do feel more affiliation to other Vlachs in other countries, rather than the locals whether those are Greeks, Albanians, Slavs or anything else. That doesn't mean that vlachs are oppressed nor stupid cause they feel affiliation with the locals. As you could see in some of the videos, some of the dancers do carry a Greek flag. Even the site vlachoi.net has the greek flag as an ico. However, as you can see yourself, they are proud about their vlach culture and promote it through that site.

Now, it is sad that vlachs don't learn their language in schools but if you think that, this is a problem directed to their community, i'll let you know about some other facts...There are more than 270 turkish schools in Greece. Meanwhile, linguistic minorities like the Sarakatsans and Tsakonians who speak Greek dialects cannot learn their language at school. In other words, even some groups of Greeks are in the same position as Vlachs. So please don't tell me this is an exclusive Vlach problem. It is rather a problem related to the lack of resources and organization. I wish that these were the only problems existing in Greek schools, but they are not.

Now, can we please focus on the Griko language and the initiatives taken by some people? I would gladly speak about the Vlach problems in another thread.


Edited by Flipper - 20-Jan-2008 at 23:35


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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jan-2008 at 23:32
Chilbudios, thanks for the links...Very informative.


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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jan-2008 at 23:34


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  Quote centurion Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jan-2008 at 01:56

One last message: I see that Flipper is getting emotional about the Vlach issue. I want only to precise that  the "Pindos" newspaper is NOT in Aromanian language. I am only pinpointing this fact: there it is not a newspaper in AROMANIAN LANGUAGE in the Pindus area.....the Vlachs in the area are forced to read NEWSPAPERS WRITTEN IN GREEK and this is not fair toward a minority of the European Union. This fact seems to astutely "facilitate" their assimilation (like has happened with the Sarakatsani, an ethnic group that some scholars believe was a former Vlach group now speaking only Greek and no more Aromanian). Furthermore, the greek administrator that closed the AE Forum on Maps of Vlach regions should have been more impartial (because of his role) than a "fella you posted", as Flipper writes.

Anyway, I agree that the topic here is about the Griko community in southern Italy and sincerely I appreciate the youtube videos of Flipper about them. I like very much Greece and the Greeks: that is why I'd like to see them free from the "Balkan mentality" about language & ethnicity that still have in some circumstances. Centurion

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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jan-2008 at 07:08
Originally posted by centurion

One last message: I see that Flipper is getting emotional about the Vlach issue. I want only to precise that  the "Pindos" newspaper is NOT in Aromanian language. I am only pinpointing this fact: there it is not a newspaper in AROMANIAN LANGUAGE in the Pindus area.....the Vlachs in the area are forced to read NEWSPAPERS WRITTEN IN GREEK and this is not fair toward a minority of the European Union.

Where do you read that Pindos is not in Aromanian language? I believe most of the newspapers are billingual like Ameru.

Now, I believe you complely missed this paragraph:

Αξίζει να σημειωθεί ότι η προσπάθεια αυτή αποτελεί μία άμεση  απάντηση σε επαγγελματίες βλαχολόγους  ερευνητές του εξωτερικού , οι οποίοι  διατείνονται ότι δεν υπάρχει βλάχικος τύπος στη χώρα μας, κατά παράβαση κάθε έννοιας επιστημονικής δεοντολογίας, αν και οι ίδιοι είναι αποδέκτες αυτών των εντύπων.

Το πόσο τίμιο επιστημονικά είναι αυτό το γεγονός αφήνω να το κρίνετε εσείς.

It is worth mentioning that these attempts, are a direct answer to some professional Vlachology researchers outside our borders, who claim that there are no Vlach press releases in our country and tramp every scientific deontology, even though they receive our papers.

How "honest scientifically" this is, I'll leave you to judge.

Do I need to get into more details?

Centurion, i'm really sorry for getting so sharp on the matter. However, the way you put is is an indirect impplication that it is not allowed to print newspapers related to Vlachs and the aromanian language. It is a serious accusation, that creates impressions, while bypassing some information available on the vlach website. Mr Adam, is quote caustic in his statement and I believe this is for a reason.

Originally posted by centurion

This fact seems to astutely "facilitate" their assimilation (like has happened with the Sarakatsani, an ethnic group that some scholars believe was a former Vlach group now speaking only Greek and no more Aromanian).

It is ignorant to call them a former Vlach group. Let me clear out some points:

a) this is only claimed by pro-Vlach scholars based only in the nomadic way of life both groups have. It is not a generally accepted view. It's like saying every nomad is a vlach.

b) the language they speak is an archaic dialect of Greek. It is not modern Greek. It is strange that whoever made statements as above bypassed that detail. Just an example of a Sarakatsan word that is a loanword in modern Greek: Νεράιδα(Neraeda) = fairy, from Gk. Νερά(Nera) = waters and είδα(eda) = I saw. Neraides are fairies that according to the traditions are seen near the shores of rivers. Another example is the word for spears Λούρατα (Lurata) which is a distortion of the homeric word Δούρατα (Dhurata, Ods. Βοοκ 22, 110), modern Greek Δόρατα (Dorata). The word Κρησούνι (Krisuni) which means "head" is from the homeric Κρής (Kris), modern greek Κεφάλι (Kephali). The word Πυροστιά (pyrostia) meaning "fire hearth" is a direct distortion of Πυρεστία. The word Σκούτι (skuti) which means leather is from the word Σκύτος (skitos).

Here's folk songs in their language, posted by the Drama Sarakatsans: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2864428467452083798&hl=en-GB

If that is not northwestern Greek, then we must redefine the term Greek language.

Note also that I'm a member of Sarakatsanos.gr...I'm sure they would like to comment such statements, especially when they claim to be the most ancient greek tribe, descending from the Ellopes.



Edited by Flipper - 21-Jan-2008 at 19:31


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  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jan-2008 at 13:39
Originally posted by centurion

 
LEONIDAS: I believe Flipper has answered for me, so I don't find the need to repeat. Anyway I believe Administrators should be more impartial on nationalistic issues (even if regarding their own country).

i don't live in Greece and im allowed to have an opinion which makes me (and everyone else including you) partial in most subjects.

 actually i asked 3 basic questions, with the third having what i think the answer is. ..and no they haven't been answered by anyone else. So why cant you answered them rather than hiding behind another member?

 Maybe i can give you one question, is Italy responsible for the past decline , or possible extinction of Greek in (what was) traditionally Greek speaking areas in its control?
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  Quote centurion Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jan-2008 at 22:50
O Grico teli agapi

Giuseppe De Pascalis

apu Martana

 
Campossi pane leonta ti o grico hannete jati vasta alia loja ce e sozi pleo stasi ampi sti zoi moderna, iu plussia ce fortomeni fse pramata cinuria. Cispu elei tuo, o ca 'nnorizi oca en efseri mancu a loo grico enn'ane panta a spiri professuri. Cepoddhe fore o lene ma ena ghejo crifo, ma 'a tono ghelaro na cane na fani usi glossa checciuleddha, ftoheddha ce afelasti ce cispu cratenni ja tuttin glossa na noisti a spiri ascima ce 'ntropiammeno......

This excerpt is from the first page of the I SPITTA ("Periodico grico derentino"). As everybody can understand, it is written in local Greek and not in Italian. My only question at the beginning of the topic was: "why there it is not Aromanian newspaper in the Pindus area written in Aromanian/Vlach language?". It seems this simple question (and the clear evidence that all the newspapers for the Vlachs in the Pindus mountains are ONLY in Greek, like the newspaper "Pindos")  has irritated the nationalistic feelings of Flipper & Leonidas. I apologize.

But I feel offended by the provocations that: 1) I am "ignorant" for having written that some scholars believe that the Sarakatsani are Aromanians assimilated by the Greeks. In this case there it is an extensive literature (not only from Romanian authors: read "The Aromanians, a people on the move" by the French scholar Nicolas Trifon) about the Vlach origin of the Sarakatsani (and allow me to remember that  no serious scholar defines ignorant another person only because has different opinions on a subject). 2) I "hide behind another person", only because I believe that the answer of Flipper to Leonidas is identical to mine. In this second case allow me to repeat that Leonidas as administrator should be more impartial and not "call for a fight". I am not going to answer to his provocation about the Italian "extermination" of the Greek communities in southern Italy. I love too much the Magna Grecia and its heritage in the roots of Italy, like most Italians: the excerpt above WRITTEN IN LOCAL GREEK is my best answer!  I wish I could read an excerpt in Aromanian language from a contemporary Vlach newspaper of the Pindus region...........But I want to write to Leonidas that the Greek government should understand that the Aromanian language is a patrimonium of Greece and ALLOW THE OFFICIAL USE of this neolatin language in the small area of the Pindus mountains, where they still survive. The Greeks should be proud of the neolatin language of these few aromanian villages (that do not constitute a threat to Greece, because they are now just a few, like the Greco community in Calabria).
 
I am very disappointed and as a consequence I am going to stop posting in AllEmpires forever.
 
Centurion
CIVIS ROMANUS SUM
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