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Could the Minor Asian campaign have worked?

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  Quote xristar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Could the Minor Asian campaign have worked?
    Posted: 04-Nov-2008 at 12:39
As you may know, between 1919 and 1922, Greece launched a campaign into Asia Minor (Anatolia), in an effort to occupy and annex parts of Anatolia's western regions.

Initially, under the Sevres treaty, signed by the Entente and the Ottoman empire, the area around Smyrna (Izmir), was to be autonomous, and decide with a referendum if it wanted to be part of Greece or Turkey (Ottoman Empire). The Greek army was to guarantee the autonomity and internal security in the region.
Greece soon found out that they were not welcome in Anatolia by the muslim population, while also a revolutionary faction, under Mustafa Kemal, was taking military action against the Sevres treaty (that included fighting with Armenians, French and British). Turkish armed groups started harassing the Greek army, and the Greek army took action by steadily expanding it's positions, beyond the Smyrna region.
In winter 1920-1921, and spring 1921, the Greek army attacked, in order to destroy the turkish armed group, only to find that they had underestimated the turkish forces (which were organized and trained as a regular army) and that the Greek forces in Anatolia were insufficient for the task. From March to June 1921, Greece transported reinforcements, in order to increase the Army of Asia Minor to sufficient stength. In June 1921 the Greek army undertook a major offensive towards Kutahya and Eski Sehir, with the aim of encircling and destroying the Turkish army. The Greek forces advanced deep into the east, and caused much attrition to the Turkish forces, but they (the Turkish) were able to escape the Greek maneuvre, and retreat east of the river Saggarios (Sakarya). Facing the failure of their plan, the Greek high command decided to continue the attack, crossing the river, towards Ankara, the capital of the Turkish Revolutionaries. The plan was essentially the same as with June-July, namely the Greek army would try to encircle and destroy the Turkish army. The campaign was found to be very difficult, as the army had extended its supply routes too much. Additionally, Turkish cavalry was causing havoc in greek supply columns. The Greek plan for the attack was also very faulty, while the Greek military leadership was found very incapable, comparing infavourably with the much more potent Turkish leadership. The battle resulted into a bloody failure, and the Greek army retreated orderly towards the west expecting an imminent Turkish counterattack (which didn't occur).
By autumn 1921, the Greek economy, weak already from the beginning, collapsed. The "Allies" refused any loan to Greece. Facing this reality, it became evident in Greece that the war was lost, as the Army had lost any capabilities to launch a big offensive again. An immediate evacuation was unthinkable, as it would have a tremendous political effect, leading the government certainly to a fall. A financial trick (internal lending) by the minister of Economy gave additional life to the Greek Army, until the autumn of 1922, with the possibility of a medium offensive. This offensive was decided to be against Constantinople in summer 1922, but for political reasons it never materialized. Proposed plans for the creation of a "Minor Asian State" had no chances of success.
Eventually, in August 1922, a powerfull Turkish offensive broke the Greek Army in two parts, with the biggest being encircled and effectively destroyed. In relative disarray, the Greek Army evacuated Anatolia, into the Aegean islands and Eastern Thrace.
The "Allies", with no Greek representative, signed a cease-fire agreement with Turkey in Mudania (Mudanya). According to this agreement, the Greek Army had to evacuate Eastern Thrace, something that caused great resentment to the Greek side. A military "revolution", among the ranks of the Greek Army had overthrown and arrested the government (and eventually executed them, after a parody-trial), and amidst these internal developments it was decided that Greece should sign the embarassing agreement. Greece later reorganized her army, and prepared for continuation of war, but the Turkish withdrawal of the demand that Greece pay war-reparations made Greece accept eventually the agreement, and leave Eastern Thrace to Turkey.
Thus, the war ended.

My big question, as a Greek, which I honestly don't know the answer is: had the campaign any chance of success?
Because, according the many historians, including Winston Churchill, Greece did not have enough potential (men, money, weapons) to occupy and defend such a large territory, against a determined enemy, with greater human resources, fighting in his own territory.
Others, (...mostly Greeks), seem to believe either that 1)if Greece had not extended the campaign beyond Smyrna she would be able to defend and annex the smyrna region, or 2)if Greece had taked serious action earlier (in 1919 or 1920) when the Turkish forces were weak, she would be able to eliminate the Kemalist movement. Others think that the capture of Constantinople (Istanbul) would be enough to pressure Kemal into an agreement with Greece.

What do you think? I know the Turkish member will say "Nah, we would destroy you anytime", but seriously, was there a way, that Greece could win something of this war?

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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Nov-2008 at 13:59
Too many assumptions in your post. I'll get to a detailed respsonse soon.
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  Quote Vorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Nov-2008 at 16:20
The only way to win would be:

a)Have support of the Allies (real support in guns and money)
b) Fortify the Smyrni area and fight a trench war

And still it woud be difficult.
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  Quote Beylerbeyi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Nov-2008 at 17:37

Xristar,

I discussed this before in this forum a few times, and they were heated discussions. Your version, however is quite agreeable and your questions are important/interesting.
 
My big question, as a Greek, which I honestly don't know the answer is: had the campaign any chance of success?
First of all, I will look at the situation from a historical perspective. Turks and Greeks have been fighting over the Byzantine lands since 1071. In the 1071-1923 period, there were few years when the Turkish/Greek power ratio was so low as it was immediately after World War I. In this perspective, assuming that Greece wanted to conquer Anatolia, it was the right time for them to do so.  
 
The window of opportunity was very narrow: had Greece attacked Turkey in 1914, it would have faced the military that defeated Britain twice, and would have been crushed. If it attacked any time after 1924, it would have faced the unified Turkish Republic with at least twice its population (today seven times) and would have failed.
 
Because, according the many historians, including Winston Churchill, Greece did not have enough potential (men, money, weapons) to occupy and defend such a large territory, against a determined enemy, with greater human resources, fighting in his own territory.
Strategically Greece was a bit isolated as they depended on Western Allies, but they had no choice. I tend to agree that Greece bit more than it could chew. On the other hand, the point above holds: they were never likely to catch the Turks so weak again.
 
After the Balkan Wars, everybody underestimated the Turks, and paid for it. In fact, Balkan Wars were a disaster to the Ottomans because they were in the middle of extensive military re-organisation. Abdulhamid II was afraid of the military, so he weakened it during his rule. Actually he was correct as he was deposed by the leaders of the Commitee of Union and Progress, who were young officers themselves. After they got into power they started to reorganise the military. 
 
The situation in the Balkan Wars was similar to the Soviet Army when Hitler launched his surprise invasion in World War II. Russians were caught with their pants down, and it took them some time to recover. Similarly Ottoman military was thus caught in the middle of reorganisation and was easily defeated. Their enemies, however, thought that this poor performance was due to the racial inferiority or military backwardness of the Turks. But by 1914, right lessons were learned and German weapons and instruction transformed the army toa different affair altogether.  
 
British were particularly unable to comprehend the reality and kept believing in their irresistable racial superiority would make the Turks surrender in fear. British expected a repeat of Balkan Wars and easy their thrashings of poor peoples everywhere, but lost in Kut ul-Amare, and they lost in Gallipoli, and later they suppported Armenia and lost, and supported Greece and lost again.
 
So the inability of Greece is only visible in hindsight. I can't really fault Greek expansionists because they attacked Anatolia in 1919. If I were a Greek expansionist I would have attacked at that time as well. Note that there were many in Greece who were not expansionists opposed this war altogether, and they were right, it was a big adventure in imperialism.
 
Others, (...mostly Greeks), seem to believe either that 1)if Greece had not extended the campaign beyond Smyrna she would be able to defend and annex the smyrna region,
Smyrna or Izmir as the Turks call it was the second largest city in Anatolia (today it is 3rd largest). It was the main Aegean port, and it was where all the goods and products from Western Turkey moved through. Economy of the whole hinterland (which was one of the most developed in Turkey) depended on this city.
 
Occupation of Izmir was an important factor in the growth of the Turkish nationalist movement. Turkish nationalists would never let Izmir go. Even if there were no Muslims in Izmir, Izmir could not be left to Greece or anyone else. Imagine paying the Greeks customs duties for all your exports and imports. Also Greek Izmir would have given them a foothold in Anatolia from which they could attempt further expansion in the future.   
 
So if the Greeks did not expand their campaign to Ankara and remained in Izmir what would have happened? Turkish nationalists would have consolidated their power earlier and attacked. If they failed, they would have attacked later. If they failed, they would have attacked in World War II. They would have taken Izmir eventually. 
 
So, again, I believe the Greek decision to march to Ankara to deal with the nationalist movement was a correct one.
 
or 2)if Greece had taked serious action earlier (in 1919 or 1920) when the Turkish forces were weak, she would be able to eliminate the Kemalist movement.
I don't know if this was possible for the Greek side, but if it was it seems the best option. In 1919-1920, there was no 'Kemalist movement'. Mustafa Kemal was in Istanbul until May 1919. The National Movement was first organised in Congresses in Sivas and Erzurum and only later moved to Ankara. Sivas and Erzurum are out of Greek reach no matter when they attack. They are in the mountainous east and guarded by a full Ottoman army which refused to disarm (and later formed the core of the Nationalist army). So the Greeks could not have stopped the Nationalist movement from forming, but they could have taken Ankara and all of Western Turkey and deny the Nationalists these areas. Still, no guarantee of success, as once the Armenians were defeated, Soviets could send help to the Nationalists. And a lot the arms they used were smuggled from Istanbul under occupation, which means that occupation of the land could not stop the Nationalists from benefiting from it.
 
There are other problems with this scenario as well. Greek movement deep into Anatolia would have united the Turks, as at the moment they were divided between the puppet Istanbul government and the Nationalists. These regions were not included in the Mondros Armistice after the World War, so if the Greeks moved in, and the Sultan would be forced to side with the Nationalists (the Ottoman Parliament refused to sign Sevres and sided with the nationalists anyway, causing the freedom-and-democracy-loving British forces to occupy Istanbul and disperse it).
 
Finally, another big problem with this scenario is the same as before, at the time nobody expected that there was much fight left in the Turks. They had to have a crystall ball to tell the future, otherwise it was impossible to see what would have happened. When the Nationalist movement had a Parliament and regular military units, Western media (French one, I know of) was talking about 'bunch of bandits in the mountains'. They had no idea what they were facing. 
 
I think after Sakarya, the French acknowledged the power of the movement and sent a representative to Ankara, who came and asked Inonu, 'so what do you want?' he was expecting some bandits warlords or such. Inonu was shocked, 'we want recognition, we have a government going here', it took the Allies some time to comprehend this.
 
Others think that the capture of Constantinople (Istanbul) would be enough to pressure Kemal into an agreement with Greece.
Again, obviously wrong. Istanbul was the capital of Turkey, largest Turkish city, heart of Turkish culture and economy and government and finance and everything else. Everything I wrote about Izmir applies to Istanbul 10 times more. Nationalists would never have abandoned Istanbul. If the Greeks succeeded to defend it, Ankara government would have attacked again. If they succeded until October 2008, Ankara would be attacking today in November 2008...
 
Nationalist army was moving towards Istanbul after Izmir was liberated, even when it was occupied by Britain, let alone Greece. Also the allies were unlikely to leave Istanbul to Greece. It was meant to be under international control.
 
As to Eastern Thrace including Edirne, its main importance is that it provides defences for Istanbul. If Edirne (Adrianople-'a fortess town since its inception' according to a British historian) is Turkish, Istanbul is safe (also Turkey has a solid foothold in Europe in case it wants to attack. Ask me later about my tripod theory). Otherwise Istanbul is threatened. I believe war would be likely if Greece tried to keep Eastern Thrace, even without Istanbul. Could they keep it if they tried? I think they could with Allies controlling the straits, and Turks having no navy. But Turks would have taken it latest by World War II, on the German side if necessary. 
 
So, to sum it up, Greece was wrong in occupying Turkey, because that is an imperialist adventure. So I would not have done that. Let the British do their own dirty work. However, if I was a Greek imperialist adventurer, I would have done what they did. So I can't say that they made any strategic mistakes in their Asia Minor campaign. Ismet Inonu wrote that the Greeks had a good army and good troops, better equipped and more numerous than the Turkish side, good officers and even good generals (Trikoupis was not that bad a general, was surely better than the one who replaced him), they were capable of large scale offensives (Inonu himself was defeated in the Kutahya-Eskisehir battles and had to move behind the Sakarya river). However Greeks lacked World War I experience (most Turkish generals had 10 years' experience in the field), which proved crucial later. I think if the Greeks had had generals with World War experience their offensive in Sakarya could have succeeded. Which could have forced the Nationalists to re-evaluate their plans and allowed some gains for Greece.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Nov-2008 at 18:04
Good post Bey.
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  Quote xristar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Nov-2008 at 20:28
had Greece attacked Turkey in 1914, it would have faced the military that defeated Britain twice, and would have been crushed.

Greece and Turkey didn't have common land borders in 1914. It would be a mainly naval war (you may know of the 1914 crisis between Greece and Turkey, and small scale "arms race"). Greece would never launch a land offensive in turkish mainland.

Note that there were many in Greece who were not expansionists opposed this war altogether, and they were right, it was a big adventure in imperialism.

Mmm. "imperialism". Heavy word. I tend to see this war as an unavoidable one, not an imperialistic (=unjustified expansion). Namely, with the rise of nationalism in Turkey, the position of christian minorities became dangerous. The very least that would happen would be a forceful assimilation, and pressure for immigration into Greece. I think that the war HAD to happen. The question is whether the possibility of a Greek western Asia Minor was possible, or the whole undertaking was doomed from the beginning.


Smyrna or Izmir as the Turks call it was the second largest city in Anatolia (today it is 3rd largest). It was the main Aegean port, and it was where all the goods and products from Western Turkey moved through. Economy of the whole hinterland (which was one of the most developed in Turkey) depended on this city.
 
Occupation of Izmir was an important factor in the growth of the Turkish nationalist movement. Turkish nationalists would never let Izmir go. Even if there were no Muslims in Izmir, Izmir could not be left to Greece or anyone else. Imagine paying the Greeks customs duties for all your exports and imports. Also Greek Izmir would have given them a foothold in Anatolia from which they could attempt further expansion in the future.   
 
So if the Greeks did not expand their campaign to Ankara and remained in Izmir what would have happened? Turkish nationalists would have consolidated their power earlier and attacked. If they failed, they would have attacked later. If they failed, they would have attacked in World War II. They would have taken Izmir eventually.

I generally agree.

Again, obviously wrong. Istanbul was the capital of Turkey, largest Turkish city, heart of Turkish culture and economy and government and finance and everything else. Everything I wrote about Izmir applies to Istanbul 10 times more. Nationalists would never have abandoned Istanbul. If the Greeks succeeded to defend it, Ankara government would have attacked again.

I didn't mean that Greece would keep it. Greece would propably opt to exchange Constantinople/Istanbul, with a recognition by Kemal of the Greek presence in Anatolia.

But even if Greece was to keep Constantinople/Istanbul, that would mean only the west side (original Constantinople, as the other side was other villages/towns -Pera, Skutari). You know how hard is an amphibious offensive? Believe me, the Greek army, with 16 divisions, would be able to repell any attempts of amphibious assaults (at least until recently).

Nationalist army was moving towards Istanbul after Izmir was liberated, even when it was occupied by Britain, let alone Greece. Also the allies were unlikely to leave Istanbul to Greece. It was meant to be under international control.

That doesn't mean anything . Turkey was already at war with Britain. The british forces in turkey were very weak; of course the turkish army would attack them.
I agree with the second part, not only because it's my oppinion but because it's a fact: the reason ("political" as I said in my original post) why Greece never materialized the attack to Constantinople/Istanbul was the very strong opposition from the Allies, who replied that they would fight if Greece attempted to enter Constantinople.

As to Eastern Thrace including Edirne, its main importance is that it provides defences for Istanbul. If Edirne (Adrianople-'a fortess town since its inception' according to a British historian) is Turkish, Istanbul is safe (also Turkey has a solid foothold in Europe in case it wants to attack. Ask me later about my tripod theory). Otherwise Istanbul is threatened. I believe war would be likely if Greece tried to keep Eastern Thrace, even without Istanbul. Could they keep it if they tried? I think they could with Allies controlling the straits, and Turks having no navy.

Mmm, perhaps.
But Turks would have taken it latest by World War II, on the German side if necessary.

Certainly. But they would lose it again AFTER the war, because they would be on the Axis' side.Big%20smile

Let the British do their own dirty work

That's an oppinion often stated both there and here in Greece (as you obviously have observed yourself). But I don't think that's how it was, especially not how the Greek soldeirs saw it. Greece left some 40,000 soldiers forever lying in Anatolian soil; Believe me, they didn't die as british mercenaries.

Ismet Inonu wrote that the Greeks had a good army and good troops, better equipped and more numerous than the Turkish side,
Mmm, more numerous? Greece had more soldiers, but very few combatants. Greece generally didn't enjoy a significant numerical superiority in fighters (I mean actual riflemen). Especially after the summer of 1921, when Greece lost more than 30,000 combatants, Greek frontline regiments were left quite understrentgh.
good officers and even good generals(Trikoupis was not that bad a general, was surely better than the one who replaced him).[...] However Greeks lacked World War I experience (most Turkish generals had 10 years' experience in the field), which proved crucial later.
I totally agree.



Edited by xristar - 04-Nov-2008 at 20:36

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  Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Nov-2008 at 21:08
Hello to you all
 
Mannerheim fought with the Germans yet Finland never became a Soviet colony.
 
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  Quote xristar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Nov-2008 at 21:38
Originally posted by Al Jassas

Hello to you all
 
Mannerheim fought with the Germans yet Finland never became a Soviet colony.
 
Al-Jassas

Urmm, at first I admitt I didn't understand what you were saying. Then I thought you were reffering to my "Big%20smile". My answer is: Yes, but Bulgaria also occupied Estern Macedonia and Western Thrace (from Greece) but they abandoned it, even if they fought on the soviet's side during the last year of the war.
Don't forget, Eastern Thrace had some 40% Greek population.

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  Quote Sun Tzu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Nov-2008 at 04:44
I wish that Eastern Thrace including Constantinople would still be in Greek hands.
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  Quote Beylerbeyi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Nov-2008 at 15:00
Xristar,
 
Greece and Turkey didn't have common land borders in 1914. It would be a mainly naval war (you may know of the 1914 crisis between Greece and Turkey, and small scale "arms race"). Greece would never launch a land offensive in turkish mainland.
 
With or without a land border, a Greek attack to Turkey in 1914 would have been suicide. 

Mmm. "imperialism". Heavy word. I tend to see this war as an unavoidable one, not an imperialistic (=unjustified expansion). Namely, with the rise of nationalism in Turkey, the position of christian minorities became dangerous. The very least that would happen would be a forceful assimilation, and pressure for immigration into Greece. I think that the war HAD to happen. The question is whether the possibility of a Greek western Asia Minor was possible, or the whole undertaking was doomed from the beginning.
 
The imperialist powers Britain and France (also Russia and Italy) have partitioned the Ottoman Empire even before the end of the war among themselves. Sykes-Picot agreement formed the basis of the Sevres agreement later. The imperialist roots of the post war occupation are unquestionable, and caused considerable embarrasment to the sides involved when Lenin published the secret agreements after the Russian revolution.
 
Greece got involved in this imperialist plot later, to replace Italy and Russia to some degree. Greek minority in Turkey was nothing but justification for Greek expansionism. It is like Turkey invading Cyprus because there is an endangered Turkish minority there and annexing it (which incidentally did happen). Greece should have stayed out of Turkey.
 
I didn't mean that Greece would keep it. Greece would propably opt to exchange Constantinople/Istanbul, with a recognition by Kemal of the Greek presence in Anatolia. But even if Greece was to keep Constantinople/Istanbul, that would mean only the west side (original Constantinople, as the other side was other villages/towns -Pera, Skutari). You know how hard is an amphibious offensive? Believe me, the Greek army, with 16 divisions, would be able to repell any attempts of amphibious assaults (at least until recently).
 
Pera is on European side.  As to amphibious assaults, yes, I think Greece could have defended the Western side of Istanbul. However, it would not be easy with a million Turks behind your lines. I guess they would be ethnically cleansed ASAP. Which would result in Greeks being ethnically cleansed from Anatolia. In that case it would be hard to negotiate your earlier point of exchanging Istanbul for Greek presence in Anatolia.

That doesn't mean anything . Turkey was already at war with Britain. The british forces in turkey were very weak; of course the turkish army would attack them.
 
Turks were not openly at war with Britain at the time. There was no need, Greece was doing the fighting for them.

I agree with the second part, not only because it's my oppinion but because it's a fact: the reason ("political" as I said in my original post) why Greece never materialized the attack to Constantinople/Istanbul was the very strong opposition from the Allies, who replied that they would fight if Greece attempted to enter Constantinople.


Greece entering Istanbul would have caused big problems for everyone. So that was not really possible. Is Allies were to keep Istanbul, Britain had to get its hands dirty and defend it.
 
Certainly. But they would lose it again AFTER the war, because they would be on the Axis' side.Big%20smile
 
Turkey did not want to join the war on German side, and I don't think it would be necessary to regain Istanbul. Just as Greece collapses under German attack from the West, Turkey would have occupied Istanbul in return for guarantees of neutrality and trade. I believe the situation would be more like Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact partitioning Poland. Allies and Russia would not have said anything preferring Turkey to control the straits rather than the Axis.
 
Alternatively, as Al Jassas wrote as long as Turkey played its cards correctly it could have joined Axis and still have kept some gains after the war. At the end of the war West wanted to have Turkey allied to it so they would be willing to compromise, if they didn't, USSR would be more than happy to allow Turkey keep the straits as long as their ally. It is not like Turkey would trade Istanbul and the straits in return for Marshall aid.
 
Or more likely Turkey could have joined the Allies when Axis was defeated and 'liberate' some of Greece. All in all, it was unlikely that Greece could hold on to Eastern Thrace and Istanbul when it folded under German assault. Some people in Turkey say that this should have been done in the Aegean anyway, so that we could take back the Dodecanese as they were Italian at the time.  
 
That's an oppinion often stated both there and here in Greece (as you obviously have observed yourself). But I don't think that's how it was, especially not how the Greek soldeirs saw it. Greece left some 40,000 soldiers forever lying in Anatolian soil; Believe me, they didn't die as british mercenaries.
 
It is irrelevant what they believed or what you believe. They had no business in Turkey and acted as imperialists. I am sure many American occupiers in Iraq believe that they are defending America and bringing democracy to Iraqis.
Mmm, more numerous? Greece had more soldiers, but very few combatants. Greece generally didn't enjoy a significant numerical superiority in fighters (I mean actual riflemen). Especially after the summer of 1921, when Greece lost more than 30,000 combatants, Greek frontline regiments were left quite understrentgh.
 
Greek Army outnumbered Turkish forces in all aspects in the beginning (as the Nationalists did not have sufficient regular forces, and the remnants of the Ottoman army was fighting the Armenians in the East). After Sakarya the situation was more balanced. The Nationalists prepared for the last offensive and they were able to assemble a force similar in size to the Greek one, with Soviet help and compulsory mobilisation (this is quite controversial in Turkey even today, as many people were executed by the 'Independence Courts' which forced the already extremely poor people to give everything they had, down to their socks, to the army). Despite this effort Turks were still outnumbered in most things (rifles, machineguns, trucks, aircraft, light artillery), but they were attacking so could have local superiority, and also they had more cavalry and heavy artillery. Ismet Inonu puts a special emphasis on the latter. He wrote that the Greeks, lacking 'Great War experience' found it unnecessary to have heavy artillery, and believed that their field artillery would be sufficient, on the other hand the Turks did everything they could to get some heavy artillery in place for the offensive, they had to repair the uncommissioned ones by the Allies even.
 
Sun Tzu,
 
I wish that Eastern Thrace including Constantinople would still be in Greek hands.
 
Eh, like the Turkish saying goes 'if God listened to the prayers of dogs, bones would have rained from the heavens instead of water'.
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  Quote xristar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Nov-2008 at 18:34
As to amphibious assaults, yes, I think Greece could have defended the Western side of Istanbul. However, it would not be easy with a million Turks behind your lines. I guess they would be ethnically cleansed ASAP. Which would result in Greeks being ethnically cleansed from Anatolia.

In this particular case, I think there's no doubt a population exchange (=mutual ethnic cleansing) would take place.

Ismet Inonu puts a special emphasis on the latter. He wrote that the Greeks, lacking 'Great War experience' found it unnecessary to have heavy artillery, and believed that their field artillery would be sufficient, on the other hand the Turks did everything they could to get some heavy artillery in place for the offensive, they had to repair the uncommissioned ones by the Allies even.

Heavy artillery played a crucial role in the last turkish offensive. But I don't think Greece underestimated the value of heavy artillery. Simply, with the existing situation, Greece was unable to obtain any heavy artillery.

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  Quote Count Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Nov-2008 at 19:06

Did the turks have anything in the way of an air force and and armored cavalry? and how good were the turkish and greek logistics? what about the greek navy

It seems to moi from what you guys are saying that if the greeks had anything in the way of a decent air force, a good tank force, artillery and they had fought in WWI and according to Xristar real soldiers and allied support and the support of the local population they conquered and a good commander (I'm thinking Belisarius reincarnated) they could have won but even with all that and then some in their favor it wouldn't be easy 


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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Nov-2008 at 19:36
Originally posted by Count Belisarius

Did the turks have anything in the way of an air force and and armored cavalry? and how good were the turkish and greek logistics? what about the greek navy

afaik tanks or armoured cars were not widely used or used at all. air force existed and was important in the victory of the Turks. also Turks had a cavalry corps (and i mean real cavalry) under Hayrettin Pasha which also was crucial to victory. the Turkish War of Independence was not fought in the tradition of ww1 but in the new way of mobile warfare as seen in the Russian Civil War that would later predominate in ww2.

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  Quote xristar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Nov-2008 at 19:37
Originally posted by Count Belisarius

Did the turks have anything in the way of an air force and and armored cavalry? and how good were the turkish and greek logistics? what about the greek navy

It seems to moi from what you guys are saying that if the greeks had anything in the way of a decent air force, a good tank force, artillery and they had fought in WWI and according to Xristar real soldiers and allied support and the support of the local population they conquered and a good commander (I'm thinking Belisarius reincarnated) they could have won but even with all that and then some in their favor it wouldn't be easy 

Air force existed in both sides, but was used only for reconnaissance. No armour existed, in either side.
Logistics on the greek side were poor. Anatolia was poor in roads, and Greece lacked sufficient pack animals (only some 48,000 existed in 1921. The number was ~120,000 in 1940). As a result Greece relied heavily on local transporters (very often Turkish camel riders). Additionally, Turkish regular and irregular units were constantly attacking greek supply columns.
The greek side was certainly capable of earning victory on the field of battle; the question is whether that would be possible in a long period.
Even if Belisarios was reincarnated, he would still not be able to control the demographic explosion of Turkey, and the subsequent tipping of balance, -perhaps irreversably.


Unfortunately (for us Greeks), the support of the local population was much lesser than expected. King Constantine himself had said that the Greeks of Anatolia do not deserve freedom. Only some 12,000 Greek Anatolians joined the Greek army in 1921, when the Turkish found and took some 150,000 Greeks able men prisoners in 1922, showing that only some 8% of anatolian Greeks joined the army.


Edited by xristar - 05-Nov-2008 at 20:07

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  Quote Yiannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Nov-2008 at 19:50
Originally posted by xristar

   King Constantine himself had said that the Greeks of Anatolia do not deserve freedom.
 
Not questioning the facts that you state, king Constantine was an as* and a genually incompetent leader.
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  Quote Count Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Nov-2008 at 20:05
Temujin 
 
What use would cavalry be in the 1920's? not to sound close minded or anything but wouldn't a few good rifles reduce them to a reddish paste?  


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  Quote Count Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Nov-2008 at 20:06
BTW what do you mean by real cavalry?


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  Quote xristar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Nov-2008 at 20:11
Originally posted by Yiannis

Originally posted by xristar

   King Constantine himself had said that the Greeks of Anatolia do not deserve freedom.
 
Not questioning the facts that you state, king Constantine was an as* and a genually incompetent leader.

An as*? Perhaps. But he was a quite decent leader.

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  Quote xristar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Nov-2008 at 20:13
Originally posted by Count Belisarius

Temujin 
 
What use would cavalry be in the 1920's? not to sound close minded or anything but wouldn't a few good rifles reduce them to a reddish paste?  

Fast moving  infantry. Essential in the vast uncontrolled areas of anatolia.

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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Nov-2008 at 20:31
plus raiding behind enemy lines and cutting supply lines through their speed. i said "real" cavalry because you mentioned armored cavalry which is not cavalry but armored cars. cavalry are just men on horses and nothing else.
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