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Asian Siege Weapons

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  Quote demon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Asian Siege Weapons
    Posted: 03-Sep-2004 at 15:12

Let's start a thread where we post Asian Siege Weapons.  I'll try to update this thread once in a while

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Hwacha

Origin: Korea

Range: 150m~2km depending on shinkichon

Weapon: Shinkichon: Explosive arrow.  It is divided into small shinkichon, middle shinkichon, and big shinkichon.  small shinkichon had an average range of 150m, while big shinkichon went from 1.5km to 2km!

Official Creation age: 1448 by a King

Attack method: there are 100 holes to put in Shinkichon.  Every volley, one flames 15 shinkichon.  Every shinkichon flying left a heavy smokescreen with a thorring thunder, to give extra psycological shock to enemy.  The method has not changed much compared to modern rocket launchers

Other information:  It was used principally to scare off normads from the north of Korea.  It was also used during imjin war, especially in Fort Hengju, where Shinkichon mowed down rows of Japanese musketeers.

It can shoot either 200 arrows or 100 metal bullets.  It is effective for mass formations but takes extremely long to reload.  It was particularly effective in the battle of Haengju Sansung, because the japanese decided that they wanted to take the for by sheer force of numbers and marched up the slope in formations....(gubookjanggoon)

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Edited by demon
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  Quote Gubook Janggoon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Sep-2004 at 17:46
Update on Shingichun Hwacha...
It can shoot either 200 arrows or 100 metal bullets.  It is effective for mass formations but takes extremely long to reload.  It was particularly effective in the battle of Haengju Sansung, because the japanese decided that they wanted to take the for by sheer force of numbers and marched up the slope in formations....
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Sep-2004 at 21:17

Did you know that CANNONS are invented from CHINA too?

In the MING dynasty, China used Cannons to blow up city walls. In that time no other countries had Cannin until dynasties later...

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  Quote TMPikachu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Sep-2004 at 21:21
Originally posted by Qin_Army

Did you know that CANNONS are invented from CHINA too?

In the MING dynasty, China used Cannons to blow up city walls. In that time no other countries had Cannin until dynasties later...

I've heard that Zheng He (the famous eunich explorer, I spelled it right, right?) had cannons on his ships too.

Bombs were also popular. The Mongols used bombs against the Europeans. They also used smoke bombs. Probably why they were known in some texts as the demons who 'summon foul smoke and fire'.

 

My favorite Chinese siege weapon...

Well, this one's defensive. You get an oxe, and light the ox's tail on fire, after riggin it full of blades. Have it run down city streets, right into invaders.

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  Quote Gubook Janggoon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Sep-2004 at 00:18
I believe they had cannons before Ming, Koreans had them during the Koryo dynasty so China must have had them too...What was the Chinese dynasty during Koryo...was it Yuan?
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  Quote TMPikachu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Sep-2004 at 00:32

Originally posted by Gubukjanggoon

I believe they had cannons before Ming, Koreans had them during the Koryo dynasty so China must have had them too...What was the Chinese dynasty during Koryo...was it Yuan?

Yuan was around 1200-1300-ish

Before them were the Song (southern Han) and Jin (northern, proto-manchurians)

The Song and Chin used cannons against the Mongols to defend their fortress-cities. So the Yuan kinda just 'inhereted' cannons from the conquored Chin and Song.

I think it was the T'ang or Song that really developed gunpowder weapons. Not sure, but that's the idea they get.

Another gunpowder weapon: Fire lances. pretty much spouted fire from a tube connected to the end of a lance. Very scary to see flaming lance horsemen charging down at you.

An interesting note: Mongols would not have been able to take down as many fortress societies like the Europeans and Middle Easterners as they had without the aid of Chinese (and Persian) siege engineers.

The Chinese were also the first to widely use telescopes for sighting for cannon fire. (oddly enough, this is after their re-introduction to China, so the Europeans didn't do it often?)

Also read in the book 1421 that Zheng Di's (Zheng He?) ship's cannons were of exeptionally high quality, able to match those of 17th century Europe in range, accuracy, etc.

or 18th century, something like that. Cannon quality was probably not standard.

With the re-introduction of cannons to China, China began making their own of course. Some were noted to be terrible and just plain sucked. Others were commented as improvements on European design. just depended on how dedicated and knowledgable the craftsmen were, it seems.



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  Quote demon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Sep-2004 at 05:39

In the MING dynasty, China used Cannons to blow up city walls. In that time no other countries had Cannin until dynasties later...

Korean had Cannons before Ming (not before song however), where they used it to blow Japanese pirates into pieces

 

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  Quote Conan the destroyer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Sep-2005 at 08:13

Old thread, but...

The Hwacha originates in China, not Korea. It was probably developed during the civil war between Han and Ming, then transferred to Korea.

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  Quote Koguryeo-sonyeon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Sep-2005 at 08:27

Oozth of Japan-~! =_=

(In my short thought, Hwacha was not called siege weapon. How can shoot the castle with Hwacha)



Edited by Koguryeo-sonyeon
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  Quote DayI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Sep-2005 at 09:13
lol its a bazooka!
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  Quote I/eye Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Sep-2005 at 17:04
Originally posted by Conan the destroyer

Old thread, but...

The Hwacha originates in China, not Korea. It was probably developed during the civil war between Han and Ming, then transferred to Korea.

which Hwacha?

the armoured chariot that you saw in the game 'Age of Kings' is not really much of a unique concept, and it could be individually developed in many places

the historical muliple rocket-arrow launcher cart, which you see in the topic post, on the other hand, was developed and used in Korea alone



Edited by I/eye
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  Quote Gubook Janggoon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Sep-2005 at 19:39
Originally posted by Conan the destroyer

Old thread, but...

The Hwacha originates in China, not Korea. It was probably developed during the civil war between Han and Ming, then transferred to Korea.



So Yun has told me. 

The Houjianche of China though is designed differently and seemed to have shot mostly bigger projectiles such as spears IIRC.

Here are some pics.







Here's a thread at CHF discussing whether the two are different or not.

Here

Edited by Gubook Janggoon
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  Quote I/eye Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Sep-2005 at 22:06

oh ok,

then you should say 'rockets' originated in China.

the 2 carts seem very different other than that they both launch 'rockets'

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  Quote Liang Jieming Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Sep-2005 at 23:30
The Ming dynasty HuoChe was based on the handheld Yiwofeng rocket launchers.  I believe it was a sensible evolution to grouping numbers of Yiwofeng together onto carts which is why if you look at the above sketches, you can still see the individual yiwofeng "box" launchers on the cart.

Another varient had the rockets grouped into a single large box on wheels ie. the huo che no longer looks like a cart with multiple yiwofeng mounted on it.  This I believe might have been the next step up (I'm not sure of this as I've yet to find records of which came first though it does seem more logical this way) which the Koreans adopted and scaled back downward in size but retaining the singular box of rockets.

Summary:  Yiwofeng individual box launchers -> grouped Yiwofeng "huo che" on wheels -> singular large box of rockets on wheels -> Korean adaptation hwacha which scaled it back down to a smaller size but still larger than the singular yiwofeng.


Edited by Liang Jieming
http://authors.history-forum.com/liang_jieming/chinesesiegewarfare
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  Quote Gubook Janggoon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Sep-2005 at 00:32
Hehe, great summary there Liang.

I just want to know when you're going to make one.  X]
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  Quote Liang Jieming Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Sep-2005 at 00:39
Hey General T!  I'm not sure when I'll get around to making the hwacha.  My main stumbling block which I haven't figured out how to make, irritatingly enough are the wheels!  Until I figure out how to carve wheels with spokes nicely enough, I'm not sure I'd ever get started...unless I cheat and buy toy wheels from somewhere and just slap them on. 
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  Quote Conan the destroyer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Sep-2005 at 05:34
Originally posted by Gubook Janggoon

Originally posted by Conan the destroyer

Old thread, but...

The Hwacha originates in China, not Korea. It was probably developed during the civil war between Han and Ming, then transferred to Korea.



So Yun has told me. 

The Houjianche of China though is designed differently and seemed to have shot mostly bigger projectiles such as spears IIRC.

Here are some pics.







Here's a thread at CHF discussing whether the two are different or not.

Here

 

Some do seem to fire larger projectiles, but not all. Example.

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  Quote Conan the destroyer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Sep-2005 at 06:16
According to Yang Hong's "Weapons in ancient China" the Huoche had a range of 200m, and was one of the principle weapons on the battlefield during the Ming dynasty.
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  Quote Gubook Janggoon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Sep-2005 at 19:25
I got a quick question.

Did either the Shingicheon Hwacha or the Houjianche shoot exploading projectiles?
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  Quote Liang Jieming Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Sep-2005 at 22:13
I think there are three different things carried on the cart, two of which are supported factually, the third, just in that modern sketch (the one with three huo che's)

The basic Yiwofeng bundles on the carts usually had spears attached to the sides for defense or close-quarter ramming perhaps which would lend itself to the assumption that these might not have been long range weapons but used directly in front of enemy troops.  In most illustrations, you will see two spears on each side of the carts with the yiwofeng bundles in between them.  The Korean Hwacha also had such defensive weapons tied to the carts but they sometimes also included blades afixed at different radial angles from the cart.

However, regardless of whether they had spears or not, the huo che's fired only rocket propelled arrows from the yiwofeng bundles.

This third item on the modern sketch showing what looks like large spears with gunpowder tubes strapped close to the tip like huoqiangs doesn't look to me like they were used for firing long range at the enemy (assuming that is what this artist is trying to depict in the first place.  They could just be the artist's enlarged representation of the arrows within the yiwofengs instead).  However, I suppose it would not have been inconceivable for soldiers to bolster their close support defenses with the addition of various items to tie to the carts.  They already had a long tradition of assault carts where spears and blades were fixed in the front of the carts and rammed into enemy formations by troops pushing from behind, so attaching blades to a huo che isn't a stretch in the imagination.
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