Rosetta Stone-Decoding the Demotic Text

Chicagogeorge...It would be best to avoid copy paste. It is not allowed by the forum rules. I know you have your own speech and it is a good one.

Originally posted by Petro Invictus Demosthenes called Phillip specifically a barbarian not Macedonians. Why? Because he was insulting Philip in his rhetoric. And you know this from personal experience? How well do you know yourself? Do you really know Demosthenes that well? Or Philip for that matter?

Unlike you I have read the Philippic. How did your favourite Borza come to the same conclution as me?

Originally posted by Petro Invictus NO MAN DEMOSTHENES CALLED PHILIP BARBARIAN BECAUSE HE WA SO TO HIM! http://www.wordinfo.info/words/index/info/view_unit/282 barbar- (Greek > Latin: foreign, strange, outlandish)

Ξένος = Foreigner
Βάρβαρος = uncivilized, strange, subcultured, foreign, stuttering

"Barbarian" is a pejorative term for an uncivilized, uncultured person, either in a general reference to a member of a nation or ethnos perceived as having an inferior level of civilization, or in an individual reference to a brutal, cruel, warlike, insensitive person whose behaviour is unacceptable in the society of the speaker.

Originally posted by Petro Invictus Now in the first place, Athenians, there is no need to despair of our present position, however hopeless it may seem. For that which is worst in the days that are past and gone is just what affords the best assurance for the future. And what is that? It is that your affairs are in this evil plight just because you, men of Athens, utterly fail to do your duty; since surely, were you so placed in spite of every effort on your part, it would be hopeless to look for improvement. http://history.hanover.edu/courses/excerpts/211demos.html Sounds applicable to some here! βαρβαρικόσ (barbaric)-means STRANGE, FOREIGN! If that is what it meant to Demosthenes, why interpret it?

Were is Demosthenes call the Macedonians something then? Read Borza, Erlington, Hammond and you will see all say the same thing about Philips speech.

So, Petro Inviticus, are you speciallist on Ancient Greek now?


Edited by Flipper - 04-Dec-2007 at 22:02

Originally posted by Petro Invictus Demosthenes called Phillip specifically a barbarian not Macedonians. Why? Because he was insulting Philip in his rhetoric. And you know this from personal experience? How well do you know yourself? Do you really know Demosthenes that well? Or Philip for that matter? To say something like: "Demosthenes called Phillip specifically a barbarian not Macedonians. Why? Because he was insulting Philip in his rhetoric." NO MAN DEMOSTHENES CALLED PHILIP BARBARIAN BECAUSE HE WAS SUCH TO HIM! http://www.wordinfo.info/words/index/info/view_unit/282 barbar- (Greek > Latin: foreign, strange, outlandish) Demosthenes First Philippic (351 BCE) Excerpts from the Original Electronic Text at the web site of the Perseus Project. Now in the first place, Athenians, there is no need to despair of our present position, however hopeless it may seem. For that which is worst in the days that are past and gone is just what affords the best assurance for the future. And what is that? It is that your affairs are in this evil plight just because you, men of Athens, utterly fail to do your duty; since surely, were you so placed in spite of every effort on your part, it would be hopeless to look for improvement. http://history.hanover.edu/courses/excerpts/211demos.html Sounds applicable to some here! βαρβαρικόσ (barbaric)-means STRANGE, FOREIGN! If that is what it meant to Demosthenes, why interpret it?

As we can see there are many Macedonian languages...One Slavic, one Greek and one Altaic. What you posted above is the Slavic Macedonian not the Ancient Macedonian.




The Macedonian Language

Language Name :	Macedonian
Alternate Name(s) :	Slavic   Macedonian Slavic   Makedonski   Macedonian
Dialect Name(s) :	Southeastern Macedonian   Western Macedonian   Northern Macedonian
Spoken in :	Slovenia   Bulgaria   Hungary   Albania   Canada   Macedonia   Greece
Language Code :	mkd (Former code: MKJ)
Status :	Living
Family :	Indo-European
Subgroup :	Eastern South Slavic
Subgrouping Code :	IELBA

The Ancient Macedonian Language

Language Name :	Ancient Macedonian
Alternate Name(s) :	Macedonian
Once Spoken in :	Macedonia   Greece
Language Code :	xmk (Former code: XMK )
Status :	Extinct
Family :	Indo-European
Subgroup :	Macedonian
Subgrouping Code :	IEGB
Brief Description :	The ancient language of the Macedonian kingdom in N. Greece and modern Macedonia during the later 1st millennium BC. Survived until the early 1st millennium AD. Not to be confused with the modern Macedonian language, which is a close relative of the Slavic Bulgarian.

The Balkan Gagauz Turkish Language

Language Name :	Balkan Gagauz Turkish
Alternate Name(s) :	Balkan Turkic
Dialect Name(s) :	Macedonian Gagauz   Gajol
Alternate Dialect Name(s) :	Yoruk   Yuruk   Karamanli   Tozluk Turks   Kyzylbash   Gerlovo Turks   Surguch   Konyar
Spoken in :	Turkey   Macedonia   Greece
Language Code :	bgx (Former code: BGX)
Status :	Living
Family :	Altaic
Subgroup :	Turkish
Subgrouping Code :	ATCDB

Just to reiterate, Wikipedia and other sources must be cited and commented upon under the AE Code of Conduct. If they are not, then they are violations of statute VII-B-11 of the CoC.

Originally posted by Petro Invictus "Demosthenes' career as a specialist on international relations started in 355 but it took him a couple of years to find his role as the archenemy of the Macedonian king Philip II, whom he had correctly identified as the greatest threat to Athenian autonomy, and -incorrectly- thought could be beaten. In 351, Demosthenes warned his fellow citizens against cooperation with the northern kingdom, in a speech that is known as the First Philippic. Other Philippics were to follow, and the expression "philippic" has been proverbial ever since. Generally, Demosthenes' policy was one of straightforward confrontation. When the city of Olynthus applied for help in 349, he argued for rapid and massive intervention, but the Athenians could only respond slowly and with insufficient troops, so that the city fell in 348. Even this small intervention appears to have exhausted Athens, which was still recuperating from the losses it had suffered during the Social War (357-355)." http://www.livius.org/de-dh/demosthenes/demosthenes.html His career was in international or foreign, as we call it today, affairs. I do not know what you make out of Demosthenes speeches, but at his time he clearly knew and wanted to alert his countrymen, that the Macedonians were a different, foreign people, barbaric, using different language from the Hellenic (because that is what "barbaros" means, those who murmur or barbar, those who speak different language then the "civilized" Athenians), and very dangerous people who are a treath to their independence. He cleary made a difference between the Athenians, who were Hellenes, and the Macedonians, who were barbarian, strange, non-Hellenes.

You asked to get back to the Rosseta right? Anyway...

So Brasidas wanted to inform the Spartans that the Athenians were foreigners as well? Or were the Acanthians foreigners? The Aeolians? The Megarians? Besides, as you can clearly read he calls Philip so, not the Macedonians

Besides, was Demosthenes the one to decide? The Hellenes accepted Macedonian athletes in the Olympics.

Also, what about Aristoteles who lived in Macedonia and expressed his views on slavery by saying: "So men rule naturally over women, and Greeks over barbarians!"

Did he consider himself a barbarian or a Greek?


Edited by Flipper - 04-Dec-2007 at 22:25

Besides, was Demosthenes the one to decide? The Hellenes accepted Macedonian athletes in the Olympics. Also, what about Aristoteles who lived in Macedonia and expressed his views on slavery by saying: "So men rule naturally over women, and Greeks over barbarians!"

1. Why did they have to accept them on the first place? Was it because non-Hellences were not accepted at all!?!

2. Are you sure Aristotle said "Greek", as in Grekoi, the name the Romans used to give name to the scattered Hellenic tribes of the ancient world, in the 2nd and 1st centuries AD, much later then Aristotle?

And WHICH SOURCE was this quote from?

Let me remind you:

VII-B-11 Plagiarism, the posting of texts found elsewhere without naming either author or source. Posting your own personal commentary is encouraged when copy/pasting from another source. When pasting attempt to place the content in quotes, highlight or underline for presentation purposes. Provide a correct URL link. When referencing from books or periodicals provide the title of the reference, the author and publication date. Posts where the paste is the arguement itself, while not adhering to these requirements, will be deleted.

He cited Aristotle. You are free to ask him for the text which the quote came from if you wish, but his remark does not contravene the CoC. The reference I made to the CoC was directed against the practice of copy-pasting. And please refrain from reciting the code to fellow members.

Originally posted by Flipper Originally posted by Chilbudios Very interesting, Flipper. So if I understand correctly they propose a Hellenic group (IEG), which is further split into Greek (IEGA) and Macedonian (IEGB) and Greek is further split into Attic (IEGAA) and Doric (IEGAB). Yes...As late as two years ago it received the ISO code. Before that, it was indeed undetermined and had no ISO. By that time only 1 complete inscription written in another dialect was found (Pella katadesmos). However, 1 finding cannot verify that it was indeed the pre-attic language of Macedonia. The discovery of the oldest papyrus in europe (called the Derveni papirus) and the Arethousa tablet reveiled a dialect, close to Doric but still distinct. One of the problems now is if it should be grouped as Doric or under its own in a Hellenic group of languages. The linguist list has the same listing as well by the way: http://linguistlist.org/forms/langs/LLDescription.cfm?code=xmk

I checked the Wikipedia on this again, and I found this:

QUOTE:

"DATING: Prof. Edmonds of Bryn Mawr College prefers a 3rd century BC date.

The former opinion is supported by the Oxford Classical Dictionary, in which Olivier Masson writes: "Yet in contrast with earlier views which made of it {i.e. Macedonian} an Aeolic dialect (O.Hoffmann compared Thessalian) we must by now think of a link with North-West Greek (Locrian, Aetolian, Phocidian, Epirote).

This view is supported by the recent discovery at Pella of a curse tablet (4th cent. BC) which may well be the first 'Macedonian' text attested (provisional publication by E.Voutyras; cf. the Bulletin Epigraphique in Rev. Et. Grec. 1994, no.413); the text includes an adverb "opoka" which is not Thessalian." (OCD, 1996, pp 905, 906).

Of the same opinion is James L. O'Neil's (of the University of Sydney) presentation at the 2005 Conference of the Australasian Society for Classical Studies, entitled "Doric Forms in Macedonian Inscriptions" (abstract): "A fourth‐century BC curse tablet from Pella shows word forms which are clearly Doric, but a different form of Doric from any of the west Greek dialects of areas adjoining Macedon. Three other, very brief, fourth century inscriptions are also indubitably Doric. These show that a Doric dialect was spoken in Macedon, as we would expect from the West Greek forms of Greek names found in Macedon. And yet later Macedonian inscriptions are in Koine avoiding both Doric forms and the Macedonian voicing of consonants. The native Macedonian dialect had become unsuitable for written documents."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pella_curse_tablet

Where does it say that the Pella curse tablet was in ancient Macedonian? It merely says that the curse was written in Doric dialect, although very different from the west Greek dialects at that time, and by that time already in use in Macedonia.

However, the native Macedonian dialect, or language for that matter, had become unsuitable for written documents.

However, this is just another opinion!

He says Hellenes ofcourse, but I use Greeks which is a more common term in English. I prefer Hellenes though, instead of Greeks, Griego, Yunan, Jawan, Yauna etc.

Interesting tribal names (?) you posted here? Which origin are these? Turkish?

Yunan must be descending from ancient Doric, or not?



No, in English to me Hellenes refers to the people inhabiting ancient Greece, and with Greek I mean modern Greeks, as from 1821 onward.

Hellenes is to Greek, like Slav is is to Macedonian. Compared in time: Hellenic and Slavic and Roman and Germanic were the terms used for the medieval and ancient people and languages, and now after the nation building processes of the 18th, 19th and even 20th centuries, we have the modern Greek, and the modern Macedonian, and French, and English.

So what you imply with Hellenes=Greeks does not comply with the follwoing:

http://dictionary.reference.com/

Hel�len�ic      [he-len-ik, -lee-nik] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective 1.     of, pertaining to, or characteristic of the ancient Greeks or their language, culture, thought, etc., esp. before the time of Alexander the Great. Compare Hellenistic (def. 3).

–adjective 1.     of or pertaining to Greece, the Greeks, or their language.
2.     pertaining to the Greek Orthodox Church.
3.     noting or pertaining to the alphabetical script derived from a Semitic form of writing and employing some letters that originally represented consonants for vowel sounds, which was used from about the beginning of the first millennium b.c. for the writing of Greek, and from which the Latin, Cyrillic, and other alphabets were derived.

BUT of course if you prefer "Hellenic" for you then I prefer "Macedonian" for me! :)

    

Edited by Petro Invictus - 04-Dec-2007 at 23:17