Author |
Share Topic Topic Search Topic Options
|
Anton
Caliph
Joined: 23-Jun-2006
Location: Bulgaria
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2888
|
Quote Reply
Topic: Ancient Nations of the Balkans Posted: 02-Oct-2006 at 13:53 |
Istor, look what Strabo actually wrote about Dardanians:
"The Dardanians are so utterly wild that they dig caves beneath their dung-hills and live there, but still they care for music, always making use of musical instruments, both flutes and stringed instruments. However, these people live in the interior, and I shall mention them again later".
|
.
|
![Back to Top Back to Top](forum_images/back_to_top.png) |
nikodemos
Shogun
Joined: 24-Aug-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 248
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 04-Oct-2006 at 07:30 |
In 429 B.C. Sitalces king of the Odryssians invaded Macedonia with an
army of 150.000 in order to attack the Chalkidian cities.Thrace was an
ally of the Athenians during the Peloponnesian War.The invasion in
Macedonia was in response to an Athenian request.
Thucidides described this invasion:
http://classicpersuasion.org/pw/thucydides/thucydides-passages.php?pleaseget=2.94-98
About the same time, at the beginning of
winter, Sitalces the Odrysian, the son of Teres,
king of Thrace, made war upon Perdiccas, the son of
Alexander, king of Macedon, and upon the Thracian
Chalcidians. There were two promises, of which he
wished to perform one, and exact fulfilment of the
other. The promise of which he claimed fulfilment
had been made to him by Perdiccas, when, being hard
pressed at the beginning of the war, he wanted
Sitalces to reconcile him to the Athenians,56 and not
to restore and place on the throne his brother
Philip, who was his enemy; but Perdiccas did not
keep his word. The other was a promise which
Sitalces had himself made to the Athenians when he
entered into alliance with them, that he would put
an end to their war with the Chalcidians. For these
two reasons he invaded the country, taking with him
Amyntas the son of Philip, whom he intended to make
king of Macedon, and also certain Athenian envoys
who had just come to remind him of his engagement,
and an Athenian commander Hagnon. For the Athenians
on their part were bound to assist him against the
Chalcidians with ships and with as large an army as
they could provide.
(2.96)
Accordingly Sitalces, beginning with the
Odrysae, made a levy of all his Thracian subjects
dwelling between Mount Haemus and Mount Rhodop as
far as the shores of the Euxine and of the
Hellespont. Beyond the Haemus he made a levy of the
Getae and of all the tribes lying more towards the
Euxine on this side of the Ister. Now the Getae and
their neighbours border on the Scythians, and are
equipped like them, for they are all horse-archers.
He also summoned to his standard many of the
highland Thracians, who are independent and carry
dirks; they are called Dii, and most of them inhabit
Mount Rhodope; of these some were attracted by pay,
while others came as volunteers. He further called
out the Agrianians, the Laeaeans, and the other
Paeonian nations who were his subjects. These tribes
were the last within his empire; they extended as
far as the Graaean Paeonians and the river Strymon,
which rises in Mount Scombrus and flows through the
country of the Graaeans and Laeaeans; there his
dominion ended and the independent Paeonians began.
In the direction of the Triballi, who are likewise
independent, the Treres and the Tilataeans formed
his boundary. These tribes dwell to the north of
Mount Scombrus and reach westward as far as the
Oscius. This river rises in the same mountains as
the Nestus and the Hebrus, an uninhabited and
extensive range which adjoins Rhodop.
(2.97)
The empire of the Odrysae measured by the
coast-line reaches from the city of Abdera to the
mouth of the Ister in the Euxine. The voyage round
can be made by a merchant vessel, if the wind is
favourable the whole way, at the quickest in four
days and as many nights. Or an expeditious traveller
going by land from Abdera to the mouth of the Ister,
if he takes the shortest route, will accomplish the
journey in eleven days. Such was the extent of the
Odrysian empire towards the sea: up the country the
land journey from Byzantium to the Laeaeans and to
the Strymon, this being the longest line which can
be drawn from the sea into the interior, may be
accomplished by an expeditious traveller in thirteen
days. The tribute which was collected from the
Hellenic cities and from all the barbarous nations
in the reign of Seuthes, the successor of Sitalces,
under whom the amount was greatest, was valued at
about four hundred talents of coined money,57
reckoning only gold and silver. Presents of gold and
silver equal in value to the tribute, besides stuffs
embroidered or plain and other articles, were also
brought, not only to the king himself, but to the
inferior chiefs and nobles of the Odrysae. For their
custom was the opposite of that which prevailed in
the Persian kingdom; they were more ready to receive
than to give; and he who asked and was refused was
not so much discredited as he who refused when he
was asked. The same custom prevailed among the other
Thracians in a less degree, but among the Odrysae,
who were richer, more extensively; nothing could be
done without presents. By these means the kingdom
became very powerful, and in revenue and general
prosperity exceeded all the nations of Europe which
lie between the Ionian Sea and the Euxine; in the
size and strength of their army being second only,
though far inferior, to the Scythians. For if the
Scythians were united, there is no nation which
could compare with them, or would be capable of
resisting them;58 I do not say in Europe, but even in
Asia--not that they are at all on a level with other
nations in sense, or in that intelligence which uses
to advantage the ordinary means of life.
(2.98)
Such was the great country over which Sitalces
ruled. When he had collected his army and his
preparations were complete he marched into
Macedonia, passing first of all through his own
territory, and then through Cercin, a desert
mountain which lies between the Sinti and the
Paeonians. He went by the road which he had himself
constructed when he made his expedition against the
Paeonians and cut down the forest. As he left the
Odrysian territory in going through the mountain he
had on the right hand the Paeonians and on the left
hand the Sinti and Maedi; on quitting the mountain
he arrived at Doberus in Paeonia. He lost no part of
his army on the march, except by sickness, but
rather increased it; for many of the independent
Thracian tribes followed him of their own accord in
hopes of plunder. The whole number of his forces was
estimated at a hundred and fifty thousand, of which
about two-thirds were infantry and the rest cavalry.
The largest part of the cavalry was furnished by the
Odrysae themselves, and the next largest by the
Getae. Of the infantry, those armed with dirks who
came from the independent tribes of Mount Rhodop
were the most warlike. The remainder of the army was
a mixed multitude, chiefly formidable from its
numbers.
|
The Macedonians and the Chalkidians retired to their
strongholds,behind their fortifications, and the army of Sitalkes
ravaged the lands for eight days.
The invasion ended after 30 days without the united thracians having achieved their goal to capture the Chalkidian cities.
Edited by nikodemos - 04-Oct-2006 at 07:33
|
![Back to Top Back to Top](forum_images/back_to_top.png) |
Flipper
Arch Duke
Joined: 23-Apr-2006
Location: Flipper HQ
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1813
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 04-Oct-2006 at 14:05 |
I don't understand why people refer to the Thracians like if they were a race. Thrace was inhabited by many races, not a "Thracian"-one. I look on ancient Thrace as an geographic area and a meeting point of different civilizations. Northern, Central and Southern Thrace are different ethnically. I think we discussed this before.
Edited by Flipper - 04-Oct-2006 at 14:06
|
Så nu tar jag fram (k)niven va!
|
![Back to Top Back to Top](forum_images/back_to_top.png) |
Anton
Caliph
Joined: 23-Jun-2006
Location: Bulgaria
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2888
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 04-Oct-2006 at 15:01 |
Originally posted by Flipper
I don't understand why people refer to the Thracians like if they were a race. Thrace was inhabited by many races, not a "Thracian"-one. I look on ancient Thrace as an geographic area and a meeting point of different civilizations. Northern, Central and Southern Thrace are different ethnically. I think we discussed this before.
|
I don't understand what drives you to think so. People like Bessi and Moesi from south and north of Balkans respectively spoke more or less the same language and were Thracians according to ancient authors. I think they are the same nation just never united in one kingdom.
|
.
|
![Back to Top Back to Top](forum_images/back_to_top.png) |
Desimir
Earl
Suspended
Joined: 13-Sep-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 265
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 04-Oct-2006 at 15:21 |
Agree.You should mention and Satyrs.It was a thracian tribe living in Rhodopes.Historians think that Perperikon is their legacy.They were a strong,big and fierce warriors,followers of Dyonissius.I am sure that you know about the mythical creatures satyrs.May be this ancient tribe is the prototype.
|
![Back to Top Back to Top](forum_images/back_to_top.png) |
Anton
Caliph
Joined: 23-Jun-2006
Location: Bulgaria
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2888
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 04-Oct-2006 at 15:27 |
Hmm. I never heard about them (I mean this tribe). Do you have more information?
Edited by Anton - 04-Oct-2006 at 15:27
|
.
|
![Back to Top Back to Top](forum_images/back_to_top.png) |
Giannis
Baron
Joined: 25-May-2006
Location: Greece
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 493
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 04-Oct-2006 at 16:36 |
Satyrs, wheren't they some kind of deities with horns and goat legs? Followers of Dionysus, I think.
|
![](http://www.allempires.net/cm/giannis.gif) Give me a place to stand and I will move the world.
|
![Back to Top Back to Top](forum_images/back_to_top.png) |
nikodemos
Shogun
Joined: 24-Aug-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 248
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 04-Oct-2006 at 17:35 |
Originally posted by Flipper
I don't understand why people refer to the Thracians like if they were
a race. Thrace was inhabited by many races, not a "Thracian"-one. I
look on ancient Thrace as an geographic area and a meeting point of
different civilizations. Northern, Central and Southern Thrace are
different ethnically. I think we discussed this before.
|
Actually the thracians were one of the ancient people of the
Balkans.Their language,the thracian language was an Indoeuropean
language,close perhaps to the Greek language.They were fragmented in
many tribes and the only kingdom that managed to unite most of the
thracian tribes was the Odryssian kingdom which was founded in 460 B.C.
by the king of the Odryssians Teres I.The Odryssian kingdom included
most of the thracian tribes as well as some Paionian tribes(the
Paionians were a different race from the Thracians).
All the ancient Greek historians like Herodotos and Thucidides mention
the thracians as a seperate people didvided into many
tribes.Based on this information modern historian consider the
thracians as one of the ancient people in the balkans.
Thucidides VII,29:
"For the thracian race,like all the most bloodthirsty barbarians, are
always particularly bloodthirsty when everything is going their
own way"
I will try to find the original text so as to see which Greek word Thucidides used in the text.
|
![Back to Top Back to Top](forum_images/back_to_top.png) |
nikodemos
Shogun
Joined: 24-Aug-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 248
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 04-Oct-2006 at 17:43 |
Originally posted by Desimir
Agree.You should mention and Satyrs.It was a thracian
tribe living in Rhodopes.Historians think that Perperikon is their
legacy.They were a strong,big and fierce warriors,followers of
Dyonissius.I am sure that you know about the mythical creatures
satyrs.May be this ancient tribe is the prototype. |
I think that you are reffering to the tribe Satri or Satrai.This is the
correct name of the tribe,not Satyrs.The etymology of the word Satyros
is unknown in Greek but the connection between the word Satyros and the
Satri seems a bit unlikely.It is a good theory however but needs verification.
Edited by nikodemos - 04-Oct-2006 at 17:44
|
![Back to Top Back to Top](forum_images/back_to_top.png) |
Anton
Caliph
Joined: 23-Jun-2006
Location: Bulgaria
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2888
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 04-Oct-2006 at 17:49 |
Regarding the number of Thracians- the highest number I met up to now is in Thukidides in Peloponessian Wars (97). Sitalkes, the king of Odrissyan tate had 150 000 people to invade Macedonia. The number is probably overestimated and not all of them were Thracians. There might be many Greeks, especially Athenians.
|
.
|
![Back to Top Back to Top](forum_images/back_to_top.png) |
nikodemos
Shogun
Joined: 24-Aug-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 248
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 04-Oct-2006 at 18:58 |
I think that Thucydides might be right when he says that the size of
the army was 150.000.A kingdom so vast as the Odryssian kingdom which
probably had hundreds of thousands of subjects could easily recruit an
army of that size.Don't forget that excepr for the Triballi all the
other thracian tribes were subjects of Sitalkes.
The army didn't consist only of Thracians,there were alsoo many
Paionians.I don't think that there was any Athenian contingent with
Sitalkes because if that was the case then Thucydides would have
mentioned that.Therefore i believe that there would have been only
athenian ambassadors and spies.The Athenians were afraid that the
thracians would turn out to an ally that they would not be able to
control.
When the thracian army reached Halkidike,the Athenians didn't show
up.Perhaps seeing the size of Sitalkes' army changed their minds and
their policy.
@Flipper
Thucydides uses the word genos to describe the thracian people.This shows that there was an ancient thracian race in antiquity
"to gar genos to ton Thraikon phonikotaton estin"
Edited by nikodemos - 04-Oct-2006 at 19:13
|
![Back to Top Back to Top](forum_images/back_to_top.png) |
Anton
Caliph
Joined: 23-Jun-2006
Location: Bulgaria
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2888
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 04-Oct-2006 at 19:19 |
If we accept this number as true, then number of people inhabited Odryssian state could be easely 500 000 (including women and children). I might be wrong but from Thucydides description it size was about half of Thracian lands (including those that are on the left side of the Ister) or slightly less. So, one million Thracians is, in this case, a real number.
|
.
|
![Back to Top Back to Top](forum_images/back_to_top.png) |
Anton
Caliph
Joined: 23-Jun-2006
Location: Bulgaria
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2888
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 04-Oct-2006 at 19:40 |
Sevtopolis, Thracian (and actuilly Odryssian city) is now under artificial Koprinka lake. Don't ask me how did it come, because I do not know words, dirty enough to explain ![Confused](http://www.allempires.com/forum/smileys/smiley5.gif) . Good news is that there is a project that suppose a building of walls surrounding this city (which is very much preserved and could become Thracian Pompeia) and pump out the water. Hopefully, Bulgarian government will find money to somehow correct the stupidity of their kommunist colleagues.
It will look like this:
Any of multy-millionairs in this forum are very welcome to help ![Smile](http://www.allempires.com/forum/smileys/smiley1.gif) Estimated price of the project is 20-30 million euro.
More information about the project could be find from this pdf file. There are some beautifull figures as well:
Edited by Anton - 04-Oct-2006 at 19:44
|
.
|
![Back to Top Back to Top](forum_images/back_to_top.png) |
nikodemos
Shogun
Joined: 24-Aug-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 248
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 05-Oct-2006 at 10:53 |
It is a pity that the capital of the Odryssian kingdom ended up at the
bottom of a lake.Archeology is deprived by many discoveries that would
shed light on the culture of the thracians
if the Bulgarian government manages to realise this project,then it will become the #1 tourist attraction in Bulgaria.
I wish you good luck,Bulgarians!
Anton wrote:
If we accept this number as true, then number of people inhabited
Odryssian state could be easely 500 000 (including women and children).
I might be wrong but from Thucydides description it size was about half
of Thracian lands (including those that are on the left side of the
Ister) or slightly less. So, one million Thracians is, in this case,
a real number.
I think that a hypothesis of 800.000-1.000.000 thracians in 430 B.C. could be close to reality.
|
![Back to Top Back to Top](forum_images/back_to_top.png) |
akritas
Chieftain
Hegemom
Joined: 17-Sep-2005
Location: Greek Macedonia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1460
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 05-Oct-2006 at 11:20 |
Anton in which book Thucydides mention the number ?
|
|
![Back to Top Back to Top](forum_images/back_to_top.png) |
Flipper
Arch Duke
Joined: 23-Apr-2006
Location: Flipper HQ
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1813
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 05-Oct-2006 at 14:03 |
Originally posted by Anton
Originally posted by Flipper
I don't understand why people refer to the Thracians like if they were a race. Thrace was inhabited by many races, not a "Thracian"-one. I look on ancient Thrace as an geographic area and a meeting point of different civilizations. Northern, Central and Southern Thrace are different ethnically. I think we discussed this before.
|
I don't understand what drives you to think so. People like Bessi and Moesi from south and north of Balkans respectively spoke more or less the same language and were Thracians according to ancient authors. I think they are the same nation just never united in one kingdom. |
Same ethnic-nation no...There were Phrygian tribes, Paionians, Dacians, Ionians (on the coast etc). I think you're talking about the central and north parts of Thrace which were indeed people of same origins. I don't think Ionians and Phrygians spoke the same language with Paionians, Odrysians etc. Ofcourse the Phrygian tribes are usually treated as Phrygian tribes in Thrace and not as Thracians.
|
Så nu tar jag fram (k)niven va!
|
![Back to Top Back to Top](forum_images/back_to_top.png) |
Anton
Caliph
Joined: 23-Jun-2006
Location: Bulgaria
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2888
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 05-Oct-2006 at 14:22 |
Thnx, Nikodemos.
Originally posted by akritas
Anton in which book Thucydides mention the number ? |
I think it is called "History of Pelloponessian War" or something like that, chapter 98. I am cheating -- I have book with justs texts about Thracians from different authors. ![Smile](http://www.allempires.com/forum/smileys/smiley1.gif)
Edited by Anton - 05-Oct-2006 at 14:23
|
.
|
![Back to Top Back to Top](forum_images/back_to_top.png) |
Anton
Caliph
Joined: 23-Jun-2006
Location: Bulgaria
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2888
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 05-Oct-2006 at 14:24 |
I do not agree with you, Flipper. Phrygians are said to be Thracians. I am not sure about Paionians.
|
.
|
![Back to Top Back to Top](forum_images/back_to_top.png) |
akritas
Chieftain
Hegemom
Joined: 17-Sep-2005
Location: Greek Macedonia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1460
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 05-Oct-2006 at 14:50 |
Originally posted by Anton
Thnx, Nikodemos.
Originally posted by akritas
Anton in which book Thucydides mention the number ? |
I think it is called "History of Pelloponessian War" or something like that, chapter 98. I am cheating -- I have book with justs texts about Thracians from different authors. ![Smile](http://www.allempires.com/forum/smileys/smiley1.gif) |
I have all series of Thukydides ![Smile](http://www.allempires.com/forum/smileys/smiley1.gif) and I can't find any quote as about the Thracian number. ![Confused](http://www.allempires.com/forum/smileys/smiley5.gif)
Also in
there is on line the book , with the fragment numbers. Please if you find something post it.
|
|
![Back to Top Back to Top](forum_images/back_to_top.png) |
nikodemos
Shogun
Joined: 24-Aug-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 248
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 05-Oct-2006 at 15:49 |
Akritas,it is in the second book of the Peloponnesian war(2.98).
Here is the link:
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?lookup=thuc.+2.98&vers=original
In greek Thucydides says pente kai deka myriades which means 15*10.000=150.000
1 myrias=10.000
|
![Back to Top Back to Top](forum_images/back_to_top.png) |