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Ancient Nations of the Balkans

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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Ancient Nations of the Balkans
    Posted: 02-Oct-2006 at 13:53

Istor, look what Strabo actually wrote about Dardanians:

"The Dardanians are so utterly wild that they dig caves beneath their dung-hills and live there, but still they care for music, always making use of musical instruments, both flutes and stringed instruments. However, these people live in the interior, and I shall mention them again later".
 
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  Quote nikodemos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Oct-2006 at 07:30
In 429 B.C. Sitalces king of the Odryssians invaded Macedonia with an army of 150.000 in order to attack the Chalkidian cities.Thrace was an ally of the Athenians during the Peloponnesian War.The invasion in Macedonia was in response to an Athenian request.

Thucidides described this invasion:
http://classicpersuasion.org/pw/thucydides/thucydides-passages.php?pleaseget=2.94-98

About the same time, at the beginning of winter, Sitalces the Odrysian, the son of Teres, king of Thrace, made war upon Perdiccas, the son of Alexander, king of Macedon, and upon the Thracian Chalcidians. There were two promises, of which he wished to perform one, and exact fulfilment of the other. The promise of which he claimed fulfilment had been made to him by Perdiccas, when, being hard pressed at the beginning of the war, he wanted Sitalces to reconcile him to the Athenians,56 and not to restore and place on the throne his brother Philip, who was his enemy; but Perdiccas did not keep his word. The other was a promise which Sitalces had himself made to the Athenians when he entered into alliance with them, that he would put an end to their war with the Chalcidians. For these two reasons he invaded the country, taking with him Amyntas the son of Philip, whom he intended to make king of Macedon, and also certain Athenian envoys who had just come to remind him of his engagement, and an Athenian commander Hagnon. For the Athenians on their part were bound to assist him against the Chalcidians with ships and with as large an army as they could provide.

(2.96) Accordingly Sitalces, beginning with the Odrysae, made a levy of all his Thracian subjects dwelling between Mount Haemus and Mount Rhodop as far as the shores of the Euxine and of the Hellespont. Beyond the Haemus he made a levy of the Getae and of all the tribes lying more towards the Euxine on this side of the Ister. Now the Getae and their neighbours border on the Scythians, and are equipped like them, for they are all horse-archers. He also summoned to his standard many of the highland Thracians, who are independent and carry dirks; they are called Dii, and most of them inhabit Mount Rhodope; of these some were attracted by pay, while others came as volunteers. He further called out the Agrianians, the Laeaeans, and the other Paeonian nations who were his subjects. These tribes were the last within his empire; they extended as far as the Graaean Paeonians and the river Strymon, which rises in Mount Scombrus and flows through the country of the Graaeans and Laeaeans; there his dominion ended and the independent Paeonians began. In the direction of the Triballi, who are likewise independent, the Treres and the Tilataeans formed his boundary. These tribes dwell to the north of Mount Scombrus and reach westward as far as the Oscius. This river rises in the same mountains as the Nestus and the Hebrus, an uninhabited and extensive range which adjoins Rhodop.

(2.97) The empire of the Odrysae measured by the coast-line reaches from the city of Abdera to the mouth of the Ister in the Euxine. The voyage round can be made by a merchant vessel, if the wind is favourable the whole way, at the quickest in four days and as many nights. Or an expeditious traveller going by land from Abdera to the mouth of the Ister, if he takes the shortest route, will accomplish the journey in eleven days. Such was the extent of the Odrysian empire towards the sea: up the country the land journey from Byzantium to the Laeaeans and to the Strymon, this being the longest line which can be drawn from the sea into the interior, may be accomplished by an expeditious traveller in thirteen days. The tribute which was collected from the Hellenic cities and from all the barbarous nations in the reign of Seuthes, the successor of Sitalces, under whom the amount was greatest, was valued at about four hundred talents of coined money,57 reckoning only gold and silver. Presents of gold and silver equal in value to the tribute, besides stuffs embroidered or plain and other articles, were also brought, not only to the king himself, but to the inferior chiefs and nobles of the Odrysae. For their custom was the opposite of that which prevailed in the Persian kingdom; they were more ready to receive than to give; and he who asked and was refused was not so much discredited as he who refused when he was asked. The same custom prevailed among the other Thracians in a less degree, but among the Odrysae, who were richer, more extensively; nothing could be done without presents. By these means the kingdom became very powerful, and in revenue and general prosperity exceeded all the nations of Europe which lie between the Ionian Sea and the Euxine; in the size and strength of their army being second only, though far inferior, to the Scythians. For if the Scythians were united, there is no nation which could compare with them, or would be capable of resisting them;58 I do not say in Europe, but even in Asia--not that they are at all on a level with other nations in sense, or in that intelligence which uses to advantage the ordinary means of life.

(2.98) Such was the great country over which Sitalces ruled. When he had collected his army and his preparations were complete he marched into Macedonia, passing first of all through his own territory, and then through Cercin, a desert mountain which lies between the Sinti and the Paeonians. He went by the road which he had himself constructed when he made his expedition against the Paeonians and cut down the forest. As he left the Odrysian territory in going through the mountain he had on the right hand the Paeonians and on the left hand the Sinti and Maedi; on quitting the mountain he arrived at Doberus in Paeonia. He lost no part of his army on the march, except by sickness, but rather increased it; for many of the independent Thracian tribes followed him of their own accord in hopes of plunder. The whole number of his forces was estimated at a hundred and fifty thousand, of which about two-thirds were infantry and the rest cavalry. The largest part of the cavalry was furnished by the Odrysae themselves, and the next largest by the Getae. Of the infantry, those armed with dirks who came from the independent tribes of Mount Rhodop were the most warlike. The remainder of the army was a mixed multitude, chiefly formidable from its numbers.


The Macedonians and the Chalkidians retired to their strongholds,behind their fortifications, and the army of Sitalkes ravaged the lands for eight days.
The invasion ended after 30 days without the united thracians having achieved their goal to capture the Chalkidian cities.



Edited by nikodemos - 04-Oct-2006 at 07:33
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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Oct-2006 at 14:05
I don't understand why people refer to the Thracians like if they were a race. Thrace was inhabited by many races, not a "Thracian"-one. I look on ancient Thrace as an geographic area and a meeting point of different civilizations. Northern, Central and Southern Thrace are different ethnically. I think we discussed this before.


Edited by Flipper - 04-Oct-2006 at 14:06


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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Oct-2006 at 15:01
Originally posted by Flipper

I don't understand why people refer to the Thracians like if they were a race. Thrace was inhabited by many races, not a "Thracian"-one. I look on ancient Thrace as an geographic area and a meeting point of different civilizations. Northern, Central and Southern Thrace are different ethnically. I think we discussed this before.
 
I don't understand what drives you to think so. People like Bessi and Moesi from south and north of Balkans respectively spoke more or less the same language and were Thracians according to ancient authors. I think they are the same nation just never united in one kingdom.
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  Quote Desimir Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Oct-2006 at 15:21
Agree.You should mention and Satyrs.It was a thracian tribe living in Rhodopes.Historians think that Perperikon is their legacy.They were a strong,big and fierce warriors,followers of Dyonissius.I am sure that you know about the mythical creatures satyrs.May be this ancient tribe is the prototype.
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Oct-2006 at 15:27
Hmm. I never heard about them (I mean this tribe). Do you have more information?

Edited by Anton - 04-Oct-2006 at 15:27
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  Quote Giannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Oct-2006 at 16:36
Satyrs, wheren't they some kind of deities with horns and goat legs? Followers of Dionysus, I think.
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  Quote nikodemos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Oct-2006 at 17:35
Originally posted by Flipper

I don't understand why people refer to the Thracians like if they were a race. Thrace was inhabited by many races, not a "Thracian"-one. I look on ancient Thrace as an geographic area and a meeting point of different civilizations. Northern, Central and Southern Thrace are different ethnically. I think we discussed this before.


Actually the thracians were one of the ancient people of the Balkans.Their language,the thracian language was an Indoeuropean language,close perhaps to the Greek language.They were fragmented in many tribes and the only kingdom that managed to unite most of the thracian tribes was the Odryssian kingdom which was founded in 460 B.C. by the king of the Odryssians Teres I.The Odryssian kingdom included most of the thracian tribes as well as some Paionian tribes(the Paionians were a different race from the Thracians).
All the ancient Greek historians like Herodotos and Thucidides mention the thracians as a  seperate people didvided into many tribes.Based on this information modern historian consider the thracians as one of the ancient people in the balkans.
Thucidides VII,29:
"For the thracian race,like all the most bloodthirsty barbarians, are always  particularly bloodthirsty when everything is going their own way"

I will try to find the original text so as to see which Greek word Thucidides  used in the text.
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  Quote nikodemos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Oct-2006 at 17:43
Originally posted by Desimir

Agree.You should mention and Satyrs.It was a thracian tribe living in Rhodopes.Historians think that Perperikon is their legacy.They were a strong,big and fierce warriors,followers of Dyonissius.I am sure that you know about the mythical creatures satyrs.May be this ancient tribe is the prototype.


I think that you are reffering to the tribe Satri or Satrai.This is the correct name of the tribe,not Satyrs.The etymology of the word Satyros is unknown in Greek but the connection between the word Satyros and the Satri seems  a bit unlikely.It is a good theory however but needs verification.


Edited by nikodemos - 04-Oct-2006 at 17:44
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Oct-2006 at 17:49

Regarding the number of Thracians- the highest number I met up to now is in Thukidides in Peloponessian Wars (97). Sitalkes, the king of Odrissyan tate had 150 000 people to invade Macedonia. The number is probably overestimated and not all of them were Thracians. There might be many Greeks, especially Athenians.

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  Quote nikodemos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Oct-2006 at 18:58
I think that Thucydides might be right when he says that the size of the army was 150.000.A kingdom so vast as the Odryssian kingdom which probably had hundreds of thousands of subjects could easily recruit an army of that size.Don't forget that excepr for the Triballi all the other thracian tribes were subjects of Sitalkes.
The army didn't consist only of Thracians,there were alsoo many Paionians.I don't think that there was any Athenian contingent with Sitalkes because if that was the case then Thucydides would have mentioned that.Therefore i believe that there would have been only athenian ambassadors and spies.The Athenians were afraid that the thracians would turn out to an ally that they would not be able to control.
When the thracian army reached Halkidike,the Athenians didn't show up.Perhaps seeing the size of Sitalkes' army changed their minds and their policy.

@Flipper
Thucydides uses the word genos to describe the thracian people.This shows that there was an ancient thracian race in antiquity
"to gar genos to ton Thraikon phonikotaton estin"


Edited by nikodemos - 04-Oct-2006 at 19:13
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Oct-2006 at 19:19
If we accept this number as true, then number of people inhabited Odryssian state could be easely 500 000 (including women and children). I might be wrong but from Thucydides description it size was about half of Thracian lands (including those that are on the left side of the Ister) or slightly less. So, one million Thracians is, in this case, a real number.
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Oct-2006 at 19:40
Sevtopolis, Thracian (and actuilly Odryssian city) is now under artificial Koprinka lake. Don't ask me how did it come, because I do not know words, dirty enough to explain Confused. Good news is that there is a project that suppose a building of walls surrounding this city (which is very much preserved and could become Thracian Pompeia) and pump out the water. Hopefully, Bulgarian government will find money to somehow correct the stupidity of their kommunist colleagues.
 
It will look like this:
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Any of multy-millionairs in this forum are very welcome to help Smile Estimated price of the project is 20-30 million euro.
More information about the project could be find from this pdf file. There are some beautifull figures as well:
 
 


Edited by Anton - 04-Oct-2006 at 19:44
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  Quote nikodemos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Oct-2006 at 10:53
It is a pity that the capital of the Odryssian kingdom ended up at the bottom of a lake.Archeology is deprived by many discoveries that would shed light on the culture of the thracians
if the Bulgarian government manages to realise this project,then it will become the #1 tourist attraction in Bulgaria.
I wish you good luck,Bulgarians!

Anton wrote:
If we accept this number as true, then number of people inhabited Odryssian state could be easely 500 000 (including women and children). I might be wrong but from Thucydides description it size was about half of Thracian lands (including those that are on the left side of the Ister) or slightly less. So, one million Thracians is, in this case, a real number.

I think that a hypothesis of 800.000-1.000.000 thracians in 430 B.C. could be close to reality.
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  Quote akritas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Oct-2006 at 11:20
Anton in which book Thucydides mention the number ?
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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Oct-2006 at 14:03
Originally posted by Anton

Originally posted by Flipper

I don't understand why people refer to the Thracians like if they were a race. Thrace was inhabited by many races, not a "Thracian"-one. I look on ancient Thrace as an geographic area and a meeting point of different civilizations. Northern, Central and Southern Thrace are different ethnically. I think we discussed this before.
 
I don't understand what drives you to think so. People like Bessi and Moesi from south and north of Balkans respectively spoke more or less the same language and were Thracians according to ancient authors. I think they are the same nation just never united in one kingdom.


Same ethnic-nation no...There were Phrygian tribes, Paionians, Dacians, Ionians (on the coast etc). I think you're talking about the central and north parts of Thrace which were indeed people of same origins. I don't think Ionians and Phrygians spoke the same language with Paionians, Odrysians etc. Ofcourse the Phrygian tribes are usually treated as Phrygian tribes in Thrace and not as Thracians.


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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Oct-2006 at 14:22
Thnx, Nikodemos.
 
Originally posted by akritas

Anton in which book Thucydides mention the number ?
 
I think it is called "History of Pelloponessian War" or something like that, chapter 98. I am cheating -- I have book with justs texts about Thracians from different authors. Smile


Edited by Anton - 05-Oct-2006 at 14:23
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Oct-2006 at 14:24
I do not agree with you, Flipper. Phrygians are said to be Thracians. I am not sure about Paionians.
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  Quote akritas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Oct-2006 at 14:50
Originally posted by Anton

Thnx, Nikodemos.
 
Originally posted by akritas

Anton in which book Thucydides mention the number ?
 
I think it is called "History of Pelloponessian War" or something like that, chapter 98. I am cheating -- I have book with justs texts about Thracians from different authors. Smile
I have all series of Thukydides  Smile  and I can't find any quote as about the Thracian number.Confused
 
Also in
 
 
there is on line the book , with the fragment numbers. Please if you find  something post it.
 
 
 
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  Quote nikodemos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Oct-2006 at 15:49
Akritas,it is in the second book of the Peloponnesian war(2.98).
Here is the link:
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?lookup=thuc.+2.98&vers=original
In greek Thucydides says pente kai deka myriades which means 15*10.000=150.000
1 myrias=10.000
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