some questions about greece

Originally posted by Hellinas What are you talking about?

 

Hellinas,

Never mind, I'm simply stupid!

A few days ago I read a post (can't remember by whom) with unsupported nationalistic views and a link to Voridis political site. I didn't have the time to reply but I was furious. Today I saw your post and connected the two (don't ask me why) and I blasted away at you.

In any case, apologies and no hard feelings I hope!

 

 

 

It's dissappointing that America decided to "accept" the name Macedonia for that country. There has been alot of critisism to Bush for that, but i don't think theres been enough.

>>Those retards try to fabricate some "Greek superiority" by discovering Greeks and Greek influense almost everywhere in the world.<<

The link I provided had absolutely nothing to do with superiority. As you said you saw it, unless, you never did spend a minute in viewing a video that had nothing to do with your superiority accusations but was a sarcastic comment on what will happen to EU after Turkey is allowed to enter. And just jumped to this conclusion after seeing the link.

>>I have absolutelly no idea what on earth you do mean<<

You are the one that commented the link provided "and a link to Voridis political site. I didn't have the time to reply but I was furious" so to you I express my complaints, I think the "title" "Moderator Group" under your screen name does imply you're some kind of moderator in here.

As for FYROM. Since, dear Yiannis you live in Samos as you say, you should have known what is exactly going on with the very name Macedonia and exactly how insulting the least I can say, this "term" is, when wrongly used as in your post.

So, after this short explanation that I hope helped you understand exactly what I mean, I 'll ask the same question I did before, especially now that I know you live in Europe and what I find even more annoying is you say in Hellas. Where do you get off calling the Fyromians "modern Macedonians", when you for one as a member of the Hellinic population must know exactly how we see this issue?

Originally posted by Hellinas >>Known Greece of that time was from Thessaly in the North to Krete in the South and from the Ionian islands in the West to the East-Agean islands in the East<< Would you mind explaining were did Macedonia go, in your presentation of the Hellinic borders and  what happened to the Troyans, Samothrace, Illyrian tribes not to mention the numerous Hellinic people in Italy long before the foundation of Rome? If we are to take it a bit further what about the Sea People, the Phillistines or even the Thracians (clearly connected to the Hellinies thanks to latest archeologic finds. see gold mask similar to Agamemnon's and an Olympic ring? Herodotus does tell us that the Hellines never did have any kind of border, at least that's what I understood when reading his Book I, 56 "These races, Ionian and Dorian, were the foremost in ancient time, the first a Pelasgian and the second an Hellenic people. The Pelasgian stock has never yet left its habitation, the Hellenic has wandered often and afar." And a little something about your signature. Isocrates doesn't say that "The word Greek is not so much a term of birth as of mentality,and is applied to a common culture rather than to a common descent" But he clearly said in his "Panegurikos" 4.49-50, we have become the teachers of the world since our intelligenge has surpassed everyone. So the term Hellin has came to  suggest no longer a race but an intelligence. So a Helline is he who shares our intelligence or our common race. "kai mallon Hellenas kaleisthai tous tes paideuseos tes hemeteras E tous tes koines phuseos metechontas." "E" means "or" In your "version" it's like everyone influenced by the Hellinic culture were accepted as Hellines and ceased to be what our ancestors always concidered them to be . Which was nothing more than "Barbaroi".

First of all,we are talking about Homer's time,Macedonia did not existed as a nation.The numerous Hellenic people of Italy you are talking about did not exist in Homer's time either.They came with the second settlement.Troyans,Illyrians,Thracians were Hellenes?Bring me proofs. Whoever is influenced by the Hellenic culture,follows the Hellenic ethics etc IS a Hellen.You do not born a Hellen,you become one.And sth else "ellina":Fascism and nationalism is the enemy of Hellenism.

>>First of all, we are talking about Homer's time, Macedonia did not existed as a nation. The numerous Hellenic people of Italy you are talking about did not exist in Homer's time either. They came with the second settlement.Troyans,Illyrians,Thracians were Hellenes? Bring me proofs. Whoever is influenced by the Hellenic culture, follows the Hellenic ethics etc IS a Hellen.You do not born a Hellen,you become one.And sth else "ellina":Fascism and nationalism is the enemy of Hellenism.

Hellenism is not only Ancient Greece.<<

Your ignorance is actually very frightening, if you my friend are a representative of modern Hellinic thought, I can understand why our country is going deeper and deeper in the gutter.

First you didn't clarify what you think Homer's time is. Do you mean during the time of his life, that was estimated to be approx. 850BC or do you mean the time the Troyan war took place approx. 1250 BC? What do you think was the time the Mycenaean's lived, would it be 1500BC as "traditional" chronology claims? If so my friend it's time to reconsider your sources, cause, archeologic finds in Dimini and Sesklo near the city of Volos raise the Mycenaean era up to 5000BC.

Italy:

We know that the first Latin historians wrote in Greek, see Quintus Fabius Pictor, Lucius Cincius Alimentus, Gaius Acilius and Aulus Postumius Albinus.

According to Cicero the first Romans who wrote in Latin prose were Sabine Claudius, Appius Caecus who was in consul in 307 and 296 BC.
He delivered speech in Latin to the Senate after making peace with Pyrrhus, the king of Epirus.(need I say who he was?)

If you read Livy you'll find that the King of Alba Longa, Mettius Fufetius in an argument with Tullus Hostilius, states:
"And if we should yield the command to you, the base-born will rule over the true-born, barbarians over Greeks, and immigrants over the native-born."

Dionysius summarizes the reports of the Greek origin of the Romans by the Romans themselves as follows:
"But the most well known of the Roman historians, among whom is Porcius Cato (who compiled with the greatest care the 'origins' of the Italian cities) Gaius Sempronius and a great many others, say that they are Greeks, part of those who once dwelt in Achaia"

The Aborigines :
Were a mythical people of central Italy, connected in legendary history with Aeneas, Latinus, and Evander.
The most generally accepted etymology of the name (ab origine), according to which they were the original inhabitants (the Greek autochthones) of the country, is inconsistent with the fact that the oldest authorities (e.g. Cato in his Origines) regarded them as Hellenic immigrants, not as a native Italian people.

These Aborigines had already accepted into their tribe what was left of the Greek Pelasgians (need I mention who they were?)of  Italy who had been decimated by a mysterious sickness.
Dionysius inclusion of the history of the Pelasgians in Italy and their union with the Aborigines along with Porcius Cato are the sources we have of this "union".

The Hellinic Sabines
The Sabines had migrated to Italy from Lacedaemonia in Southern Hellas.

Romans, Latins and Sabines had agreed that the name quiris/quiretes would be their common name which all dictionaries translate as citizen.
But the Romans had a name for citizens, like the Hellinic, polites, i.e. civitas.
The names quiris-quiretes derive from the Hellinic name kouros-kouretes which means young men of fighting age and therefore warriors, "young men,young warriors," Iliad 19. 193, 248.
So the Romans, Latins and Sabines called themselves first "warriors" and then citizens.

Because all three groups of Romans, Latins and Sabines came to Italy by sea from Hellas and Asia minor they were warrior sailors and sea faring peoples. It is obviously for this reason that at their weddings they shouted the Hellinic word "Thalassios" = sailor, at the groom and not the Latin name marinos.

Another interesting FACT to concider.
 The name Rome in Hellinic means "power, force". While the closest word to Rome in Latin is 'ruo' which is connected to the Hellinic verb 'reo' and means "to flow, run, to hasten."
But actually, there are a couple of theories on the origin of Rome's name. One of them, is that Rome derives from "gruma or groma" that means "cross roads".
Another theory is it derives from a supposed deity "Roma" but she was really more of a personification representing the Roman State, this theory can be easily dismissed since the first appearance of any refference to her or a temple dedicated to her is 269 BC on Roman coins and 195 BC in Smyrna a temple.
Others again connect the name to the "Ruma", an older name of Tiber river, which is either of Etruscan origin or from the Hellinic "rhein" or "rheuma"  that means "to flow"

But the Hellinic origin of the name Rome is supported by Rome's other name ,do a search and  you'll fall on "Valentia" which in Latin (from "valens) means "STRONG"!!! Now compare this to the Hellinic Rome. See any conections?

 

 

Do I have to continue with Magna Grecia? Where even the most ignorant will see the simple fact that we can find the Hellinic colonies in Italy as far back as 850BC and according to all Roman sources, Rome was founded in 753BC. (see any connection here?)

About the Illyrians and the Thracians I'll be very short and let you do the search. Of course not all Illyrians were a Hellinic people but we do have a reletively  long list of Illyrian tribes that were of Hellinic origin. (a keyword for your search "King Pyros").
As for the Thracians do a search on resent archeologic finds. You'll see a Hellinic mask similar to Agammemnon's and an Olympic ring. I hope you know that only Hellinic tribes took part in ancient Olympics dedicated to Zeus.

>> You do not born a Hellen,you become one<<

Poor little boy, where do you think you are, the States and Canada, were there is no original population left?
And what do you know about being a Hellin? You can't even read the language of your forefathers, as proven before.

Plutarch "On the Fortune or the Virtue of Alexander" 329c-d)
""that his friends and kindred should be the good and virtuous, and that the vicious only should be accounted foreigners. Nor would he that Greeks and barbarians should be distinguished by long garments, targets, scimitars, or turbans; but that the Grecians should be known by their virtue and courage, and the barbarians by their vices and their cowardice; and that their habit, their diet, their marriage and custom of converse, should be everywhere the same, engaged and blended together by the ties of blood and pledges of offspring.""

Here we can see that they are clearly separated as ideas and people.

>>Fascism and nationalism is the enemy of Hellenism<<

Another neo-Hellin that makes the same stupid characterization as if you know what the word means.

Read ignorant little man:
nationalist 
"one devoted to his nation," 1715, from national in a now obsolete sense of "patriotic"

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=nationalist&s earchmode=none

So if being a nationalist is some kind of insult by you and Yiannis, hell, thanks guys I just wish you were half the nationalist I am.

 

 

Edited by Hellinas

Interestingly enough you've conveniently forgotten about "PAS MH ELLHN BARBAROS". Maybe you didn't realize it but all the questions in this topic are about ancient Hellas, 18 whole centuries before the first date you mention.

>>These of course are not representative of the Hellenic spirit to your small intelligence.<< Where do you see me mention anything about these dates and what does Karatzaferis have to do with the topic? You are obviously Yiannis' parrot, he mentioned Voridis and teletora you copy him and post Karatzaferis. Are these your arguments, is this really all you can contribute to the conversation? A copy!!!!

>>And do not please follow the tactic of the Slavs,isolating phrases from our ancestors<<

What did you expect, maybe that I'd post the whole text? If you feel you can argue on what I posted please do, that is the reason I gave the source. So that even ignorant neo-Hellins like you can educate themselves. And don't call them your ancestors, their bones will rattle, people like you are a disgrace to the very term Hellas and whatever it stands for.

>>Do not use the wonderful language of our forefathers to hide behind it.<<

Say what you like but atleast I can use it properly.

Originally posted by Yiannis   When it comes to the Slav citizens of FYROM being self-described as "Macedonians" I have absolutelly no problem with their choice of self-determination (even if I don't agree), as long as it's clear that they're different people from the ancient GreekMacedonians and that their name derives simply from the fact that they now live in the Northern part of ancient Macedonia. More over they have to clarify that they have no claims over Greek Macedonia.

I hear claims all the time to Alexander and King Phillip. Is that not Greek Macedonia? The populus sees no difference between ANcient Macedonia/Greek or present day Macedonia. And you say you have no problem with their choice of self-determination, yet you don't agree. Why is that?

Your mind is stuck in the past.Your biggest and more idiotic mistake ,made not only by you but by many intellectual people, is to judge who is Hellen or not with more than 2000 years criteria.You do not or you do not want to understand that the Hellenic civilization has developed through the centuries so when you refer to these ancient criteria use the word WAS not IS.That's your whole problem.You know history but you don't have the mind to put your little mind down and think,that using present you are really out of time.In your first answer you've concluded that -so the term Hellin has come to suggest no longer a race but an intelligence-i do not see any difference with my signature.Original population man?Are you serious?There is no "original" population in Hellas nor everywhere any longer.You think you are "original"?Give me a break!Even an African can become as "original" as you too if he participates in the Hellenic educational system.The term neo-Hellin means new or modern Hellin and continuing we have come to the conclusion that those modern Hellens have to leave somewhere and there's no better place than modern or neo-Hellas which accidently the modern state of Hellas was founded in the 19 CENTURY!It's use as you say shows how great stupidity there is in the world.You are an Neo-Hellin too and how much ancient Hellenic or history you know you'll always be a neo-Hellin!Bring me any dictionary you want.The true meaning of the word "barbaroi" is what i've said foreign to the Hellenic civilization.Now the other meanings are simply "modern versions" of the word.As i've said in my previous answer bring me proofs with signature and then i'll comment on them.You know the problem are not the ancient Hellens here or what they believed in ANCIENT TIMES.That's why i did not nor i  have the right to comment on their sayings.The problem here is your surpassed ideology which accidentally is the same ideology of the Greek(not Hellenic) fascists and nationalists(���������� ��� ��� ��������)     

Well,this topic was started about Ancient Hellas but your answers brought it here.Excuse me,what political rights are you talking about?If a foreign man who participates in the Hellenic educational system,knows and speaks modern or ancient Hellenic,knows Hellenic history,loves Hellas and stays in Hellas without having the bloody papers of the Hellenic citizenship is not considered a Hellin?Man,do not be so ridiculous.A piece of paper will now determine if you are a Hellen or not?This is hilarious!Concerning,the Slavic tactic:What did you expect to post the whole text?Well,i am impressed!A man with such a great knowledge of the Hellenic language does not know what the word Neo means!!Anything fascist?Let me remind you:-which was nothing more than "barbaroi"-"original population"-neo-Hellens-half the nationalist i am-.Only the "original population" alone shows what you think and what you are.What are you going to tell us next,that the Hellenic DNA is unique?If you want to have a healthy conversation stop saying these nationalistic bullshiet and bring me ,for third time,proofs with signature.You've said bringing any kind of signed work doesn't mean it is also accurate.Well,it's more accurate than reading them through a person whose sources can be really considered controversial. 

Look, i really dont feel like reading everything here, but what is your main source of strife? What is a Hellen and what isn't? What is a Neo hellen? What is the main argument here?