Alexander the Great: Visionary or Tyrant?

Originally posted by Suren What he has done to Persepolis shows he was only a conquer not a liberator. Although I admire him as a good general but not as a good conquer.

I guess the question becomes what makes a "good" conqueror? When you compare Alexander to the likes of Caesar, Genghis Khan, Tamerlane, Napoleon, etc., is he "good" or "bad"? Are we (the US) liberators of the Iraqi people or an occupier to secure the oil supply? Was the Imperial Japanese Army in the early 20th century liberating Asia from Western colonialism as Japan claimed (which was very valid) or were they just conquering all these nations for their own selfish reasons? The answers are sure to vary amongst various people from different parts of the world and objective non-biased observers will find that there are no simple answers.

As far as the burning of Persepolis, I agree that there is no "excuse" for what Alexander did or is responsible for, but Persepolis wasn't easy to get to and as he approached the city, he ran into a horde of horribly mutilated Greek slaves escaping the city that was being deserted by the Persians. Reportedly, Alexander wept when he saw these Greek slaves and went into a rage as he entered the city. Then, alcohol seems to have played a role in him losing control and allowing the palace to be burned. Judging by what Alexander did to Thebes, Tyre, and Gaza, what he did to Persepolis doesn't seem out of line or out of character.

It's not honest it's boring debate.

DO NOT speak about the Alexander the great Greek or Macedonian issue on here. All the mods for this section and most of the people on here have had enough of it - you want to talk about it, ask a mod to start up a new thread on the minefield

Edited by Aster Thrax Eupator - 19-Mar-2008 at 22:01

Guys we are in an historic debate,and why should you take my  historical fact that he was Macedonian,and the King of Macedonia for that,as inflamatory?

Well, getting back to the original topic on hand, I think we need to consider why certain individuals seek to be a ruler or a head of state all around the world and why they've done so throughout all of history. Do we really believe that most politicians are in it for the well-being of the people or are they in it for their egos and other selfish interests like power, money, fame, etc.? How many politicians or leaders around the world today are in it for "glory"? How many of them really care about the plight of the people that they claim to want to serve?

It's really difficult to visualize or comprehend what the social mores were like and what the common people thought about during Alexander's time. Too often, we simply think about what Alexander did during his era through the lens of our modern perspectives and moral values. Things just aren't that simple. It's like the difference between the cultures of the East and the West. I'm a Korean-American who spent virtually equal amounts of time growing up both in Korea and in the US. It's impossible for me to really describe one culture to the other and vice versa when they have never experienced it. I have been to China dozens of times weeks at a time on business and still after all this time, I can't say I understand the Chinese psyche or what's really going on there. China is still foreign to me from both Korean and American perspectives.

What I'm getting at is that the topic is not such a simple question. Was he a benign visionary multi-culturalist who was magnanimous to his subjects or was he a ruthless megalomaniac tyrant who was willing to go to all lengths to eliminate his enemies to get his way? It really isn't one or the other. What Alexander's cobbled-up story tells us is that he was a good portion of both and that he swung wildly from one extreme to the other based on the external circumstances and situations during his life. He was an extraordinarily complex character who had strong elements of extreme antipodes. He was a savage warrior but also an intellectual who loved to read the plays of Sophocles and play the lyre. He was a cunning and Machiavellian (preceding the philosopher-political writer by nearly two millennia) statesman who ruthlessly eliminated any threats to his power but was also an almost naive dreamer who trusted friends too easily and respected women and the cultures (including religions) of those he conquered.

I've compared Alexander to many other conquerors and rulers of history in both the West and the East and there just hasn't been anyone quite like him. And, yes, he was so far ahead of his time that he must have seemed bewildering to both his closest associates and the common people alike. I also think that's why his enemies so often misjudged him and got outwitted by him. You look at his achievements and how he went about achieving them and he can be considered a proto-liberal progressive by even today's standards. He was just so unconventional. He can be ruthlessly pragmatic in one instance and then in the next instance totally go off on an tangent basing his actions on dreams and naive idealism. He was an intriguing mix of the two sides of the coin. Some will say that he was more of a visionary and some will say more of a tyrant. It really comes down to how each individual filters the information that we absorb about him in his or her own particular way. I just think that we need to keep an open mind to what the conditions were like in those days and what you and I would have done if we were in his position.

Originally posted by JUliusAugustus it seems out of character for the Persians to have slaves, it is against their beliefs, zoroastrian customs and culture at the time, I think Persepolis was built by paid laborers instead of slaves, Greek culture promulgated slavery and adopted it as natural law, I believe Aristotle even said that. but if you have a source I would gladly appreciate it, it might change my view of Persian culture of that time.

This is a common theme in various books (30+) I've read about Alexander. As for ancient sources, it's Qunitus Curtius Rufus's 'The History of Alexander' book 5, chapter 5:

When he (Alexander) was not far from the city (Persepolis), the king was met by a pitiful group of men whose misfortune has few parallels in history. They were Greek captives, some 4,000 in number, whom the Persians had subjected to various kinds of torture. Some had their feet cut off, some their hands and ears. They had been branded with letters from the Persian alphabet by their captors, who had kept them to amuse themselves over a long period by humiliating them.

Curtius's sources are Diodorus and Justin - not the most reliable ancient sources, but sources nonetheless...

Originally posted by Flipper Originally posted by JUliusAugustus �I believe Aristotle even said that. Yes, indeed he said that. Strange how such an intellectual promoted such ideas.

And in 19th century America - only about 150 years ago, Christians in the south believed that God gave them the right to own slaves. They quoted the Bible and you can easily look that up in the Old Testament. And virtual slavery still exists in much of the world today.

Edited by AlexKhan - 20-Mar-2008 at 07:50

Originally posted by Flipper Originally posted by JUliusAugustus  I believe Aristotle even said that. Yes, indeed he said that. Strange how such an intellectual promoted such ideas.

thanks bro, you from macedonia, cool, I would love to visit your country one of these days, if I managed to save enough money.

Originally posted by Flipper Originally posted by JUliusAugustus thanks bro, you from macedonia, cool, I would love to visit your country one of these days, if I managed to save enough money. Here is a summary of what Aristotle said: http://oregonstate.edu/instruct/phl302/distance_arc/las_casas/Aristotle-slavery.html It is meet that Hellenes should rule over barbarians; as if they thought that the barbarian and the slave were by nature one. Ofcourse I won't agree with him. I'm from what is historically Upper Macedonia though (borders of Orestes and Boion around Ancient Apidea). Nortwestern Greece. That's why i have ", GR" next to my location.

thanks flipper.

Originally posted by Anton Originally posted by Flipper   10101010100001010 time   Is it binary? I bet you Greek fellas believe it was created by some Alexander's teacher

It is because of my work...
Too much binary there.